Doing the 'Continental'

[Colin parks]

Hi Steph,

 

Thanks for the information on glazing and 'Klear' . I shall be experimenting with the product again but letting it set for a longer period. Maybe I was too inpatient when I tried before. Re. hot-forming of glazing, I'll give it a go this weekend. A scale 22ft radius is it? I'm not sure if cobex is a thermo-plastic - we shall see.

 

I remember my father trying the hot water method of forming plastic into curved sections. He even made a wooden former like the one I have made. I vaguely remember him trying (with lots of swearing!) to immerse the thing in boiling water, but the heat never got into the middle. The plastic didn't form the correct shape and the wooden former warped.

 

From experience, and this time not bitter, the plastic is best put in a pre-heated former (dry heat does not affect hardwood in the same way the hot water seems to) and then bake for five minutes at 200C in the Rayburn oven (no fire-risk). With styrene being a thermo-plastic, once cooled, that's it - it keeps the shape permanently (two months and still counting).

 

I agree that doing this in 7mm could be daunting, but might be worth it for those 'awkward' roofs where no proprietary product is available.

 

You mentioned CD cases too. That's a good tip for flat-glazed stock.

 

All the best,

 

Colin

[Steph Dale]

Colin,

 

Cobex certainly is a thermoplastic and forms pretty well. You're right about your method of forming it and I suspect from my previous experiences that an electric grill would work well as a heat source too. For any glazing I'll be forming I'm likely to roll a brass former though - I don't have the material, tools or skill to make an accurate former out of hardwood.

 

In 7mm the main problem would be finding a good heat source that's large enough to take the work pieces if it was felt necessary to make roofs or sides in one shot. Thankfully there are a few sources of vac-form roof stock and even the odd injection moulded version. If I got really stuck I think I'd probably end up making roofs solid, using basswood or balsa and then covering the surface with a suitable material. Thankfully not a worry with the model in hand at the moment...

 

I've got all the parts for the sides cut out now, just needing some time to assemble. In the photo we have (from top to bottom): lower side overlay from Evergreen 'siding' with a 0.020" rib along the bottom edge; the inner side for the compartment side in 0.040" plasticard; the two outer sides, still joined bottom edge to bottom edge; inner side for the corridor side; lower side overlay. On the right hand side are the doors I made up yesterday morning:

 

I hope to get more assembly done this evening!

 

Steph

[Colin parks]

Hi Steph,

 

The sides looks very good indeed! It will be interesting to see the assembled body - not long now!

 

Thanks for the news about cobex. I haven't done my experiment with glazing yet (gardening!).

 

Keep up the good work!

 

Colin

[Steph Dale]

Colin,

 

It might be a little longer than you think! I don't know how well you've been keeping track (groan...) of progress, but I haven't done the ends yet.

 

My plan is to get the sides done and then make up the ends while the sides are under weight and on glass. In any case it's a two-stage process as the lower sides will have to go on, then the upper sides. This is because the upper sides slope inwards towards the top and are proud of the lower side by the thickness of the panelling.

 

There was more progress this evening, as the spacers between the inner and outer sides have been made and fitted. The outer sides have now been separated too.

 

I'm leaving it all to dry off for a few hours now and maybe will get back to it tomorrow evening.

 

Steph

[Steph Dale]

Right, time for a quick photo to illustrate yesterday evening's update.

 

From the top we have the outer, upper side (corridor side); inner side (corridor side) showing the way the spacers have been applied to give the shape and strength to the sides- it's particularly obvious around the guard's compartment. This one has also had a door test fitted to make sure of the fit - it's not been glued and will come back out for the moment. Then there's the upper, outer side (compartment side); finally the inner side (compartment side) which shows a slightly different approach to the spacers. And the back side of a door...:

 

That's it for the mo. Normal service will be resumed shortly.

 

Steph

[Colin parks]

Colin,

 

It might be a little longer than you think! I don't know how well you've been keeping track (groan...) of progress, but I haven't done the ends yet.

 

My plan is to get the sides done and then make up the ends while the sides are under weight and on glass. In any case it's a two-stage process as the lower sides will have to go on, then the upper sides. This is because the upper sides slope inwards towards the top and are proud of the lower side by the thickness of the panelling.

 

There was more progress this evening, as the spacers between the inner and outer sides have been made and fitted. The outer sides have now been separated too.

 

I'm leaving it all to dry off for a few hours now and maybe will get back to it tomorrow evening.

 

Steph

 

 

Hi steph,

 

Oops, I hadn't noticed the lack of ends! (A case of the end not being in sight yet - another groan...). This is certainly a complicated vehicle to construct - with the two types of panelling and so on.

 

Would you say it helps that much to keep the sides under weight on glass, or is it an 'insurance policy'? I still suspect that the distortion is caused by having detail attached with solvent to one side of the plastic sheet only - we might need a scientist to advise us.....

 

Colin

[Steph Dale]

Colin,

 

There are still a few jobs to do to get the sides together though I have reached a major milestone this evening with the attachment of the large piece of matchboarding to each of the inner sides. I would have a photo, only (hey; guess what ) they're under weight on glass until tomorrow evening.

 

I suppose that the 'under weight on glass' has become a bit of a mantra on this model. It probably is an insurance policy; it certainly can't do any harm to leave it on glass at the end of each session. The weight must help with bond strength too. To be honest it's probably one of those 'if you've got it, use it' type of things. I happen to have a 12" x 18" piece of 3/4" plate glass; so I use it. No prizes for guessing what it was originally purchased for though...

 

Thankfully I think the parts are currently free of distortion - I'll be interested to see what happens when the sides emerge from their current resting place. I suspect you're right about the issue of adding detail to only one side, the method I'm using here is lifted wholescale from Jenkinson; it results in a coach side made from a number of long, thin boxes. I think this should be pretty good to help with the long-term stability of the model.

 

We'll see, I guess.

 

Steph

[Western Star]

 

In the photo we have (from top to bottom): lower side overlay from Evergreen 'siding' with a 0.020" rib along the bottom edge; the inner side for the compartment side in 0.040" plasticard; the two outer sides, still joined bottom edge to bottom edge; inner side for the corridor side; lower side overlay. On the right hand side are the doors I made up yesterday morning:

 

 

Steph

 

 

Very neat and clean parts - the doors look rather good. How have you achieved the fielded and panelled appearance for the doors?

 

 

 

From the top we have the outer, upper side (corridor side); inner side (corridor side) showing the way the spacers have been applied to give the shape and strength to the sides- it's particularly obvious around the guard's compartment.

 

 

Steph

 

 

My apologies if I am jumping the gun a bit with this question. The photograph suggests that the matchboard is to be spaced away from the inner side (if that is what I "read" in the picture) - given the thin nature of the Evergreen boarding what measures will you take to ensure that the boarding stays flat and does not forms dips and/hollows along the corridor side?

 

regasds, Graham Beare

[Steph Dale]

Hi Graham,

 

Thank you for your comments; I'm pretty pleased with the way the doors have come out. The fielded panels in the doors are made by cutting each panel out completely from the door stock of 0.020" material. The edges of the panels and the door are then bevelled and the panel stuck back in again. After it dried I then added 0.010" x 0.020" microstrip behind to pack the door out from the inner side. There are a few strips put along the joins of the panels so that they don't crack out if the completed model has the misfortune to be handled by its doors. Happily the arrangement of the strips will also mean that solvent doesn't get trapped between the door and side.

 

You're correct about the matchboarding. There have been a few things that I've done as I've gone along that will help keep it flat. Each side length is made from three pieces due to the size of the Evergreen sheet. I had to join them so used the opportunity to add a 5mm wide strip of 0.020" along the bottom edge, they were kept up against a straight edge, weighted and on glass as each strip dried off. The Evergreen siding is 0.020" thick, but I note that a 0.040" version is also available, although it seems pretty hard to come by in the UK. So I have a strong, stable, flat strip to start off with.

 

As the sides are assembled I took good care to ensure that the matchboarding remained straight, it was assembled on the side against a steel rule. For reference I should perhaps add that the matchboarding is spaced out by a total of 0.030" from the inner side. Once assembled, the sides return to be weighted on glass (front face down) which keeps them flat. I had a look at them this morning after they've been drying under weight for about eight hours and am very pleased to report that they are flat and the sides as a whole are much stronger than the sum of their parts. My hat (and, indeed, my glass) is once more raised to Mr Jenkinson; his techniques have worked well here. I should get the remaining matchboard panels in place this evening and will post a picture once they're in place.

 

The next coach building exercise for me is a set of Maunsell coaches using Slater's kits and new sides are required for some of them to represent the 1935 flush-sided stock. To achieve the flush-sided look I have been working through some ideas that would allow me to use 0.010" for the outer skin. Looking at the results here I can see that the very complex support/bracing method I had been contemplating may be overkill. I suspect that a simple solution is the way to go, although I may use Cyanoacryalte rather then MEK to attach the skin - it'll reduce the chance of distorting the thin material.

 

I hope that helps. When I get home this evening I can post a diagram of the sections through the side, if that is of interest?

 

Steph

[Etched Pixels]

Absolutely stunning - I had enough trouble etching them in N, but that level of detail and precision by hand is really amazing.

[Steph Dale]

Absolutely stunning - I had enough trouble etching them in N, but that level of detail and precision by hand is really amazing.

 

Thank you for the compliment! I think that trying to convincingly design an etch for one of these coaches would perhaps be trickier than just building it. There would be some real 'issues' with building one of these in brass, there's the very subtle break in the side, the inset doors and those (insert random perjorative here) bolections. Though I'm just beginning to wonder if the next project might require to be etched. We'll see, I guess ;-)

 

Anyhoo - here are the pictures of the sides with their full complement of matchboarding. I apologise for the slightly shoddy camera work, but it was a case of getting a couple of quick (hand-held) shots loosed off before putting the sides back in the clamp. And before anyone asks; the sides are flat, it's the blanket that's uneven:

 

Here's another of those 'with anorak' moments; I've trimmed the matchboarding for the guard's compartment so that the panels centre on the doors, when they're fitted :

 

And now it's back to brain-bending for half an hour as I need to work out the final shape for the ends...

 

Steph

[Western Star]

 

The next coach building exercise for me is a set of Maunsell coaches using Slater's kits and new sides are required for some of them to represent the 1935 flush-sided stock. To achieve the flush-sided look I have been working through some ideas that would allow me to use 0.010" for the outer skin. Looking at the results here I can see that the very complex support/bracing method I had been contemplating may be overkill. I suspect that a simple solution is the way to go, although I may use Cyanoacryalte rather then MEK to attach the skin - it'll reduce the chance of distorting the thin material.

 

When I get home this evening I can post a diagram of the sections through the side, if that is of interest?

 

Steph

 

Your post regarding the matchboarding is very helpful and thank you - a sketch is of interest if there is one in your notebook.

 

Superglue is often iffy with plastic sheet, there was a good article on this subject in MRJ several years back. Gordon Gravett was writing about the use of CA glues with ABS and with styrene as part of the construction of rolling stock for Pempoul. Further, that article showed how he approached flush sided stock by applying overlays to clear sheet material, Cobex comes to mind.

 

If you are intending to work with 10thou as overlays then you might benefit from a telcon with David White who is always willing to discuss such matters and offer suitable advice (both for and against different techniques / adhesives / solvents).

 

regards, Graham

[Steph Dale]

Graham,

 

I hope this sketch is useful. It's fully up to my usual standards so the scale is a bit 'iffy' and I've mixed metric and imperial measurements...:

 

Thanks for your thoughts on using plasticard with superglue. It's still only at the ideas stage but I keep reading about aircraft modellers using it in preference to MEK as it's quick and can have good gap-filling properties. In the case of the overlays approach, I'm considering how/whether to clean and key the surfaces before bonding. I can then hold the parts together and use one of the capillary action superglues to make the join.

 

Your suggestion about having a conversation with David White sounds like a good idea; he's the chap behind Slater's isn't he? As the question relates to modifications to his kits it could be an enlightening conversation! He was absolutely charming on the 'phone when I ordered the parts for the current project.

 

Steph

[Colin parks]

Hi Steph,

 

The sides are looking good! You are almost building this coach like a real one with all the extra ribs that you have added. Will there be some air gaps to vent off the solvent?

 

I would be a bit cautious about using superglue to attach these lovely sides together, it doesn't stand a lot of flexing before failure of the joint. Then again, I only use the 'common or garden' variety, there are better ones. One trick with superglue that I use: Breathe hard on the glued joint

straight after application and it doesn't produce that whitening effect. (especially useful with glazing).

 

Superglue needs oxygen and moisture in order to set so the breathing technique works well (on a coach the size of yours, you might need to take a rest every now and then though!)

 

Colin

[Steph Dale]

Hi Steph,

 

The sides are looking good! You are almost building this coach like a real one with all the extra ribs that you have added. Will there be some air gaps to vent off the solvent?

 

I would be a bit cautious about using superglue to attach these lovely sides together, it doesn't stand a lot of flexing before failure of the joint. Then again, I only use the 'common or garden' variety, there are better ones. One trick with superglue that I use: Breathe hard on the glued joint

straight after application and it doesn't produce that whitening effect. (especially useful with glazing).

 

Superglue needs oxygen and moisture in order to set so the breathing technique works well (on a coach the size of yours, you might need to take a rest every now and then though!)

 

Colin

 

Colin,

 

Most of the structure of the sides are open to the elements - that's certainly the case at the level of the window strips. The lower sides are sealed, but you're ahead of me again - each of the sealed panels has had a couple of 1.5mm holes drilled in diagonally opposite corners, through the backing, before the sides were assembled.

 

These sides are assembled throughout with MEK and I anticipate continuing with that approach. The superglue discussion fits around future builds of coaches and how I might manage it if the vehicles have flush-sides. I know a bit about adhesives and tend to buy the best I can reasonably afford, so have 'ZAP' brand cyano in stock all the time. It's pretty terrific stuff. I take your point about the help of breathing on the model when using cyano...

 

And now the big surprise. Well, it's a surprise to me; the basic sides are now complete! I still need to add panelling around the matchboarding, panel edging strips along the window areas, droplights, hinges, handles, doors, etc, etc. But, for the moment, it's job done. I've even had a chance this evening to get them propping up the roof to give me an idea of how it'll look. I'll be cutting out the ends tomorrow if I get in from work at a sensible time:

 

Steph

[Colin parks]

Hi Steph,

 

It's great to see the sides are done after all that work. It was probably a stupid thing to ask if you had vented the sides - of course you would!

 

I'd just like to say with regard to my comment on breathing on superglue: Exhale only. Inhaling something with 'cynano' in its formula would definitely cut short your modelling career.

 

Colin

[Steph Dale]

I thought I'd do a quick update to help answer some of the questions and demonstrate the current state of play.

 

Yesterday afternoon I started making up the ends, getting the 0.020" framing on the 0.040" inner ends and cutting out the blanks from the remains of the Evergreen siding sheet. You can see how the framing has been supplemented by the need to support details such as steps, gangways, handbrake, etc.:

 

One of the jobs that needed a bit of work was the gangway door. Like those for the sides this includes fielded panels and as it's a sensible size for photography I thought I could show in more detail how these are made up. First up, the marked out door and the end to which it fits. You can see the panels are numbered in order that they go back in the correct places:

 

The panels are then cut out using a scalpel to cut the whole way through:

 

The edges of the panels and framing are then bevelled:

 

And the parts stuck back together. The end has also gained two small pieces of additional framing to provide a little more support to the door/panels:

 

So, once assembled, we then have two complete ends, ready for detailing:

 

So that's the basic parts made for the entire vehicle. There's a lot of detailing to do but in this view you can see the four entry doors, internal bulkhead for the guard's compartment, two ends, floor (upside down), roof, two sides. There's still some way to go as there's an awful lot of smaller details to make and fit before I'll be happy to erect the body:

 

However, with a relatively clear weekend I shall use my time to clear the bench and build up a couple of sets of Slater's bogies. They're fiddly and it makes sense to build them up in batches; I'll do enough for three vehicles this time. So you may not hear from me for a while...

 

Steph

[Ark Royal]

Hi Steph,

 

This is looking fantastic, you've wet my appetite now.

 

May I as where you got the book from 'Carriage Modelling Made Easy'?

 

Reference the size of A3 plastic sheets etc, you can get a variety from the link below as well

 

EMA Model Supplies Ltd

 

Looking forward to more pictures

 

Mark

[/url]

 

[Colin parks]

Hi Steph,

 

It's looking very much like a scratch-built kit! Excellent progress.

 

I've tried to get a copy of the Jenkinson book that Ark Royal mentions. It is out of print and second-hand copies are as rare as hens' teeth.

 

Regards,

 

Colin

[Steph Dale]

Well, I've just stepped away from the bench. Good progress has been made today and I hope to be able to report back tomorrow evening.

 

However I'm disappointed to find that, as you guys have said, the Jenkinson book seems to be OOP at the moment. The only thing I can suggest is ringing around the smaller and secondhand dealers. I just did a search using a well-known search engine and by the third or fourth page I was starting to come across dealers who had copies listed. However, I'm afraid that my normal sources seem unable to oblige at this instant.

 

It's a real shame I wasn't aware of this before as I've deliberately hinted "if you want to know more, or the basics, then buy the book" in the process of doing this workbench piece...

 

Mark, thanks for the lead to EMA for large plasticard. It's never buying it that causes problems, it's the shipping and handling. You need to buy an awful lot to make that worthwhile. Thanks to Antics in Bris'l I can order it in person and then walk it home a week or so later; assuming I don't need pieces any larger than A3! I'm glad to have your appetite wetted; the SECR (and SR, for that matter) had some very strange and often wonderful coaching stock. It'll be nice to get a few of these rather more interesting coaches in. Particularly when the often-modelled Bulleid stock was relatively unusual in 1948-50ish and Mk1s non-existent. Y'see you're missing all this fun if you're modelling things like DEMUs

 

Colin, hmm; I see what you mean about the 'scratch-built kit'. Now I just need to build the thing

 

Steph

[Steph Dale]

And things were going so well. Or: buyer beware when purchasing second-hand kits...

 

So the bogies then. Slater's tremendous etched jobbies. I have a stack of these things to build so decided to reduce the height of the stack (and complete a pair of Slater's Van 'B's) by aiming to complete three sets at once. I remembered I had bought a secondhand Slater's coach kit a while ago and thought I might use the ones from there as I knew the only thing that had been done was part of one bogie.

 

Without reading the instructions. Grrr

 

So, I've spent of this weekend building two sets of bogies up from clean kits. De-bodging one bogie and making one up from bits in the bottom of the box it came in. Thankfully it appears complete...

 

Anyhow: we now have three sets of bogies starting to look like, erm, well; bogies. Most of what you see here is Slater's, built as Slater's intend. I have made the odd minor modification, one of these is to put the cut-out in one of the end stretchers for the dynamo belt. In the case of these bogies the cut-out is slightly too long to allow more clearance for the bogie to turn. You can also see (far stretcher of left-hand bogie) that I've drilled to odd extra hole or two through rivet dimples in the kits to which I shall be attaching step brackets:

 

The left-hand and back-right bogies are the two for the Continental - evidenced by those extra couple of holes here and there. The one on the right-hand side at the front is the secondhand one which displays its upside-down centre stretchers with some pride. At least I won't be able to see them when the bogie is fitted under a van 'B'!

 

Anyway, with all the mucking about today, I'm a bit behind where I thought I'd be. So I'll be trying to get the bogies up and running by the end of the week.

 

Watch this space (or not, I guess )

 

Steph

[Jim Martin]

In the absence of David Jenkinson's book, he wrote a series of articles in the Modeller, way back, that explain his basic ideas. I don't know how much he altered his methods between doing the series and the book: frankly, I'd be surprised if he hadn't developed them further. All the same, I'd guess that more libraries have collections of Railway Modeller from the late 70s than have the book.

 

The series ran from April to July 1979. I also recall that Jenkinson wrote up the construction of the coaches for the MRJ "Inkerman Street" layout, but I can't remember when that was (my collection of old MRJs is boxed up and I can't get at it) or how much detail he went into.

 

Great build, too. The "Continentals" have always intrigued me, and scratchbuilding on this scale is always interesting to see.

 

Jim

[Adam]

In the absence of David Jenkinson's book, he wrote a series of articles in the Modeller, way back, that explain his basic ideas. I don't know how much he altered his methods between doing the series and the book: frankly, I'd be surprised if he hadn't developed them further. All the same, I'd guess that more libraries have collections of Railway Modeller from the late 70s than have the book.

 

The series ran from April to July 1979. I also recall that Jenkinson wrote up the construction of the coaches for the MRJ "Inkerman Street" layout, but I can't remember when that was (my collection of old MRJs is boxed up and I can't get at it) or how much detail he went into.

 

Great build, too. The "Continentals" have always intrigued me, and scratchbuilding on this scale is always interesting to see.

 

Jim

 

The MRJ piece was in numbers 15, 18 and 22 which, you may be slightly alarmed to note was 23 years ago...

 

Adam

[boeing757]

Morning all,

David Jenkinson's "Carriage Modelling Made Easy" is currently available in soft cover format from www.ianallanpublishing.com, priced at 9.71 gbp. A good postal service too!

Bob

[Steph Dale]

Jim, Adam, Bob,

 

Thank for your help with tracking down some of David Jenkinson's material on carriage building. A quick check at home this lunchtime confirms that I don't have any of the three MRJs listed. Which is a shame, I would have like to see what was in them.

 

I was interested to note that Ian Allan list the book; I hope they have it in stock. I've been defeated a number of times when trying to buy books from them. Motor Books might be worth a try too, I suggest; they seem to keep good stocks of the available Wild Swan publications.

 

I'm intrigued by the thought of how David may have developed his technique over a numebr of years. There are certainly coaches featured in the book that he claims go back to the beginning of his 0-gauge building; so maybe his techniques haven't changed all that much. Mind you there's no reason for them to, they work and remain valid until you're looking at modern flush-sided vehicles or want to incorporate more detail.

 

Steph