Mark 2b, By Accurascale and IRM!

[hmrspaul]

1 hour ago, dj_crisp said:

Yeah NSE started off light blue then because of bleaching the revised livery went darker.

 

 

I never 'wasted' film on coaches. However this is interesting as it shows quite a light blue but the nearest door appears to have been swapped in from another coach and is very clearly a darker blue. https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/mark2coach/e67451b50   The stripes don't quite line up either. 

 

Paul 

Edited June 13, 2022 by hmrspaul

[D400]

4 minutes ago, hmrspaul said:

I never 'wasted' film on coaches. However this is interesting as it shows quite a light blue but the nearest door appears to have been swapped in from another coach and is very clearly a darker blue. https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/mark2coach/e67451b50   The stripes don't quite line up either. 

 

Paul 

 

By no means an expert, but I believe only some Mk2a's received the later "dark" blue, along with the unique Mk2D FK and EMU/DMU stock. 

 

Bruce

[hmrspaul]

7 minutes ago, D400 said:

 

By no means an expert, but I believe only some Mk2a's received the later "dark" blue, along with the unique Mk2D FK and EMU/DMU stock. 

 

Bruce

I've no idea what this coach is. That wasn't the point, the discussion is about the blue and this shows there an example that shows two blues - whether intentional or because of fading/washing I don't know. I suspect there were two different pots of paint. 

 

Paul

[D400]

9 minutes ago, hmrspaul said:

I've no idea what this coach is. That wasn't the point, the discussion is about the blue and this shows there an example that shows two blues - whether intentional or because of fading/washing I don't know. I suspect there were two different pots of paint. 

 

Paul

 

I should have clarified Paul - your picture shows a Mk2a, and I'm pretty sure the carriage is in the original shade, while the door has been painted in the revised shade. It's not just the brightness that's different - indeed both shades have probably faded, it is the red content in the two respective shades.

 

My point was (and is) that to the best of my knowledge non of the Mk2bs (and cs) ever received the revised shade, and therefore in the context of this thread we need only worry about the original shade, which to my eye, AC have got spot on.

 

Bruce 

[brushman47544]

4 hours ago, D400 said:

My point was (and is) that to the best of my knowledge non of the Mk2bs (and cs) ever received the revised shade, and therefore in the context of this thread we need only worry about the original shade, which to my eye, AC have got spot on.

 

Bruce 

 

I think you are right. I have quite a few books with photographs of Class 50s hauling Mk2s over the Waterloo-Exeter line and haven't found any where the coaches have an obvious difference in the blue colour in the same rake. Not the same with the locos though - in some the darker blue on the 50 looks the same as the coaches, in others the lighter blue looks lighter than the blue on the coaches. I'm convinced the differences in appearance come down to the amount of daylight, the state of the weathering and in particular the effect of the washing plants on the blue on the locos. My only doubt concerns the unique NSE liveried air-con 13575. For some reason I recall that being in the later darker NSE blue and don't recall it being a different colour to the other coaches in the same rake... 

[D400]

1 hour ago, brushman47544 said:

My only doubt concerns the unique NSE liveried air-con 13575. For some reason I recall that being in the later darker NSE blue and don't recall it being a different colour to the other coaches in the same rake... 

 

13575 was defiantly in the later dark NSE blue, and as can be seen bellow defiantly didn't match the rest of the rake! 

 

 

Bruce

 

P.S.: A lovely Mk2c TSOT leading there... come on guys you know you want to 😉

[GordonC]

13 hours ago, D400 said:

 

13575 was defiantly in the later dark NSE blue, and as can be seen bellow defiantly didn't match the rest of the rake! 

 

 

Bruce

 

P.S.: A lovely Mk2c TSOT leading there... come on guys you know you want to 😉

 

was there any Mk2b TSOTs or were they all Mk2c?

[BR Blue]

27 minutes ago, GordonC said:

 

was there any Mk2b TSOTs or were they all Mk2c?

As far as I know they were all Mk2c.

[robertcwp]

11 hours ago, BR Blue said:

As far as I know they were all Mk2c.

Apart from those that were 2d. 

 

There were no 2b TSO(T)s.

[Colin_McLeod]

23 hours ago, GordonC said:

 

was there any Mk2b TSOTs or were they all Mk2c?

 

23 hours ago, BR Blue said:

As far as I know they were all Mk2c.

 

Do the original batch of NIR mk2b second opens with toilet count?

NIR didn't use the term TSOT but isn't that effectively what they were.

[Flood]

On 13/06/2022 at 12:52, D400 said:

 

I should have clarified Paul - your picture shows a Mk2a, and I'm pretty sure the carriage is in the original shade, while the door has been painted in the revised shade. It's not just the brightness that's different - indeed both shades have probably faded, it is the red content in the two respective shades.

 

My point was (and is) that to the best of my knowledge non of the Mk2bs (and cs) ever received the revised shade, and therefore in the context of this thread we need only worry about the original shade, which to my eye, AC have got spot on.

 

Bruce 

Sorry to be a pedant but 5090 was a Mk2z not a Mk2a.

 

You are quite correct about the colour change. Some of the Mk2z stock for the Cambridge lines had a partial refurb and were painted the darker blue, as per Harris' Mk2 Coaching Stock book. When the Cambridge services went over to EMUs the darker Mk2z stock was cascaded onto the Thames lines, to run alongside Old Oak Common stock that had been repainted original NSE blue a few years earlier. There is a photo of 5162 in darker NSE blue, next to two vehicles either side in the lighter blue, in the 1991 Platform 5 Combined volume.

 

Just to clarify. The original Mk2 build stock (all built as vacuum braked) was classified as Mk2z when coaching stock was added to POIS, to be accessable on TOPS, in 1983.

 

Paul's photo also shows that original NSE blue stock was used on the Cambridge services as well.

Edited June 15, 2022 by Flood

[wombatofludham]

Any plans for the Iarnrod Eireann ex-BR Mk2b/c stock they acquired to replace the last wooden framed stock?  I once had a fantastic ride from Heuston to Ballybrophy in one behind a pair of baby GMs, which was probably the closest I ever got to riding the APT as the seats were the ones produced for the APT but which got used in various Mk2 reseating projects.

[Flood]

Just for a compaison of liveries on models please see the following photos:

 

Original Bachmann NSE against a Bachmann coach from a later batch.

The original Bachmann colour is too dark but is not quite dark enough for the later darker NSE blue.

 

 

Original Bachmann NSE against a Bachmann coach repainted in Precision paints NSE light blue.

This shows how poor the original Bachmann colour was.

 

A Bachmann coach from a later batch against a Bachmann coach repainted in Precision paints NSE light blue.

The repainted coach is very slightly lighter than the later batch Bachmann coach but the two liveries can run together with no problem.

 

As long as Accurascale produce their NSE light blue somewhere near the colours on the last photo then I will be more than happy.

 

[murphaph]

On 15/06/2022 at 17:00, wombatofludham said:

Any plans for the Iarnrod Eireann ex-BR Mk2b/c stock they acquired to replace the last wooden framed stock?  I once had a fantastic ride from Heuston to Ballybrophy in one behind a pair of baby GMs, which was probably the closest I ever got to riding the APT as the seats were the ones produced for the APT but which got used in various Mk2 reseating projects.

There's been nothing officially announced but the lads haven't exactly denied that we could probably be expect to see at least some of those coaches. They also asked for interior pics of some so I guess in time it's reasonable to assume we'll see them. I have halted my Lima resprays ;-) No point doing all that work when the IRM ones will be far better. I can wait.

[Csalem]

Would be nice to recreate this train - Baby GM, van and two Intercity Mark 2s on commuter service to Maynooth:

 

[murphaph]

It would indeed. The van is by far the least viable bit of that ensemble, though the hypothetical tooling for the chassis and bogies could be re-used on an un-rebuilt Dutch van model which would have wider appeal as they were far more numerous and ran for a much longer time span. But most of the rebuilt Dutch van tooling would be bespoke and there were only 3 ever built and they had a relatively short life too unfortunately. The only saving grace from a financial viability point of view would perhaps be that the era they ran in is seemingly still the most popular era to model.

[cessna152towser]

2 hours ago, murphaph said:

The van is by far the least viable bit of that ensemble, though the hypothetical tooling for the chassis and bogies could be re-used on an un-rebuilt Dutch van model which would have wider appeal as they were far more numerous and ran for a much longer time span

Considering all the one off special purpose vehicles which Hornby and Bachmann have produced I am surprised that no manufacturer seems to have produced a generator van  based on a modified Mk1 Full Brake.    Such vehicles can often be found attached to Mark 1 or Mark 2 stock on railtour trains hauled by normally freight only locos such as the 56 or 66, and are similar  to vehicles which were formerly to be seen on Irish Rail.    My own crude attempt based on a Hornby Mk1 BG frequently gets a run with Mark 1 or Mark 2 stock behind a Hattons or Hornby 66.

 

Edited June 17, 2022 by cessna152towser
sharper photo

[murphaph]

I wouldn't be entirely surprised if IRM deemed the BR van viable at some stage, but like the un-rebuilt Dutch vans, they were far more numerous than the rebuilt Dutch vans, which are the only prototypical vans that ran with the Vic Berry air braked stock. Who knows though. I wouldn't really rule anything out from IRM any more after the NIR stock announcement!

[wombatofludham]

What were the detail differences between the normal and rebuilt Dutch genny vans apart from the "Botoxed" ends?  Were there any other bodyside mods?

[murphaph]

The sides are basically completely different (windows and doors moved around, windows on one side replaced by vents) and the roof detail is different as the boilers were removed (electric heat on those trains rather than steam) during the rebuild. The gangways are also different, being mk3 style on the rebuilt vans.

[NoelG]

On 17/06/2022 at 08:39, Csalem said:

Would be nice to recreate this train - Baby GM, van and two Intercity Mark 2s on commuter service to Maynooth:

 

Eminently re-creatable with Murphy Models for loco and mk2d aircon coaches, and Silver Fox or IFM for the Dutch GSV. The AS coaches 2b were not aircon. Don't think AS plan to release mk2d coaches. MM  have announced re-runs of mk2d and new runs of mk3, when only the clouds know. IRM/AS produced the fertiliser wagons featured on the train in the passing loop and the superb A class that hauled them.

 

IRM/AS Fertiliser wagons

 

IFM Rebuilt Dutch GSV resin kit

 

Murphy Models mk2d aircon coaches

 

IRM/AS A class loco in earlier livery but they also produced the later IR/IE orange livery

Edited June 18, 2022 by NoelG

[murphaph]

Pretty sure there's no mk2d's in that video Noel (Irish mk2d's were all vacuum braked and couldn't operate with the Vic Berry stock, which was air braked). That's a mk2c with the Roe-Vac vents. I think the other one is a mk2a. Might be a b, but definitely not a c or d.

 

The only currently available resin kit is the SF one but it's the unrebuilt Dutch van. The ones of the rebuilt van from IFM or DC Kits are currently unavailable. I think you have the IFM version, right? I got the last of the DC Kits bodies I believe. The chassis were not available but I sourced the Werkspoor bogies from SF only to take them apart and just use the bogie side frames cosmetically on 21mm brass bogies.

 

I haven't finished my DC kits ones yet, just did the paint job and the bogies. Need to make up a chassis and whatnot:

 

 

Of course, the moment these are finished IRM will announce RTR ones in far better quality lol.

 

Edited June 18, 2022 by murphaph

[NoelG]

36 minutes ago, murphaph said:

Pretty sure there's no mk2d's in that video Noel (Irish mk2d's were all vacuum braked and couldn't operate with the Vic Berry stock, which was air braked). That's a mk2c with the Roe-Vac vents. I think the other one is a mk2a. Might be a b, but definitely not a c or d.

 

Mea Culpa :)  Were the coaches in the video like these earlier Bachmann Murphy Models?

[murphaph]

You're grand Noel. I just thought I better chip in because in GB and on NIR later aircon mk2 stock stock did run with earlier stuff but on Irish Rail it was not possible.

 

The MM coach is a mk2 rebuilt to look like a mk2a or a straight mk2a.

 

I've checked my list (which I got from the IRM forum, I didn't compile it myself) and neither of the two coaches in the video can be represented by that MM model. The roe-vac vent one is a mk2c as already mentioned. The one with the vents all in a row could be a mk2a or a mk2b but the model represents a coach built as an open (the roof vents scattered about the place). The video shows a coach built as a corridor coach (vents all in a line and offset to the compartment side). IR did buy 2 x mk2a FKs that were converted to opens but they plated over the centre door so Bachmann couldn't use their tooling to produce these for MM unfortunately.

 

You (currently) need a Bachmann mk2a FK to reproduce the mk2a in that video, then you need to do some minor surgery on it before respraying:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 18, 2022 by murphaph

[WCML100]

On 15/06/2022 at 15:53, Flood said:

Sorry to be a pedant but 5090 was a Mk2z not a Mk2a.

 

You are quite correct about the colour change. Some of the Mk2z stock for the Cambridge lines had a partial refurb and were painted the darker blue, as per Harris' Mk2 Coaching Stock book. When the Cambridge services went over to EMUs the darker Mk2z stock was cascaded onto the Thames lines, to run alongside Old Oak Common stock that had been repainted original NSE blue a few years earlier. There is a photo of 5162 in darker NSE blue, next to two vehicles either side in the lighter blue, in the 1991 Platform 5 Combined volume.

 

Just to clarify. The original Mk2 build stock (all built as vacuum braked) was classified as Mk2z when coaching stock was added to POIS, to be accessable on TOPS, in 1983.

 

Paul's photo also shows that original NSE blue stock was used on the Cambridge services as well.

 

Quick question (sorry to go slightly off topic)

 

Looking to model 3x MK2's found a charter rake (link below) - Numbered as 5171, 5200 and 9104, all I believe to be MK2z's. Is there anything cosmetic about these that differ from MK2 a's/b's/c's ?  Im trying to put together this rake and I am wondering if the Accurascale TSO's would be suitable for a renumber of the below x2 TSO's. If not are their any other MK2 variants which would be a more suitable candidate ie Bachman's MK2a ? 

 

thanks