Lionheart Lynton & Barnstaple Models

[009 micro modeller]

19 minutes ago, Marshall5 said:

However, if I was putting my toe into the O16.5 water for the first time I might have gone for something more generic, say, a Quarry Hunslet or even a WW1 Baldwin. 

 

I would have thought so too. But again, people said that about the 009 RTR and yet in the end those three prototypes came out but in exactly the opposite order (L&B, then WD Baldwin, then quarry Hunslet). Although the real L&B continues to create interest because it’s being restored I’m not sure whether that accounts for the seemingly high interest in models of it. I suppose the difference in 016.5 is that it should probably be easier to make a quarry Hunslet-sized mechanism, which makes smaller locos viable. Outside-framed prototypes are probably better if the aim is to make the loco adjustable to 014.

[009 micro modeller]

3 minutes ago, fezza said:

Bachmann already do an 0 scale trench Baldwin (albeit with some inaccuracies).

 

Is it a US 2-6-2 though, as opposed to the 4-6-0 we’re more familiar with in the UK? (Though Penrhyn did have some 2-6-2 Baldwins for a bit). Presumably scale is 1:48 if it’s from their 0n30 range.

[PaulRhB]

As said above they know their market and there’s obviously a passion for these prototypes. As long as they think the sums add up then that’s all that matters. Some of us are just very lucky we share the same passion for the L&B  

[PaulRhB]

1 minute ago, 009 micro modeller said:

 

Is it a US 2-6-2 though, as opposed to the 4-6-0 we’re more familiar with in the UK? (Though Penrhyn did have some 2-6-2 Baldwins for a bit). Presumably scale is 1:48 if it’s from their 0n30 range.

Let’s ignore that as it’s a different scale and uses a HO chassis  

[fezza]

1 hour ago, PaulRhB said:

Let’s ignore that as it’s a different scale and uses a HO chassis  

Fair comment. I don't have one so not sure how easily it can be turned into anything acceptable. However at the moment it is just about the only narrow gauge rtr loco that you can plausibly use in a British context. At around 300 notes for DCC sound it might be worth a look for people who just want to get something running, especially as British narrow gauge prototypes tended to be on the small side, making the scale difference less obvious. It would look odd against a British 7mm Manning Wardle though.

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, PaulRhB said:

Let’s ignore that as it’s a different scale and uses a HO chassis  

 

This one? https://www.themodelcentre.com/29504

 

It looks OK although it’s very expensive, especially if it’s not dimensionally accurate because of the chassis. I suspect that a bigger issue would be the scale difference, as anyone who’s seen the Minitrains (H0e) and Bachmann (009) Baldwins together would understand. The other issue in H0n30/H0e or American 0n30 is that the gauge difference from true 2ft gauge is more than it is in the British scales of 009 and 016.5.

[PaulRhB]

Who knows where they will go next with this, Lew is definitely allowed for in the tooling and Lyn would be logical next. 
They pulled a surprise with this and with some recent OO models that have sold well so I think they’ve got the finger on the pulse pretty well  

[Jeff Smith]

Simple 0-4-0 and 0-6-0 inside cylinder or inside valve 0-16.5 locos are relatively easy to build from kits using OO or etched chassis.  Choosing a complex prototype that may be beyond many people's construction capabilities seems like a reasonable approach.  Scale/gauge accuracy in 0-16.5 and On30 has always been a problem, unless you go 0-14 or On3/On2.  Of course 16.5mm is exactly correct for the GVT and one or two others!

[Jeff Smith]

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Edited September 26, 2021 by Jeff Smith
Duplicate post

[GNR Dave]

I feel a garden railway project coming on  

[e30ftw]

Excellent news, but im going to be the one to say it....................that price

 

O gauge prices for an OO size models. I know they have to cover R&D costs etc but trying to tempt people to give the (superior) narrow gauge size a go at that price is ambitious, although it looks highly detailed model of a popular prototype. 

 

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, GNR Dave said:

I feel a garden railway project coming on  

 

I almost ended up doing this a few years ago. Has anyone actually done an 016.5 garden railway? It should work as people use 00 outside and the track is pretty much the same, I've just never seen one, or heard of one.

[Andrew Young]

26 minutes ago, e30ftw said:

Excellent news, but im going to be the one to say it....................that price

 

O gauge prices for an OO size models. I know they have to cover R&D costs etc but trying to tempt people to give the (superior) narrow gauge size a go at that price is ambitious, although it looks highly detailed model of a popular prototype. 

 

Not that unreasonable if they’re going to be as detailed and accurate as Lionheart’s other models. An equally detailed kit for the MW would probably by in the £300 price bracket if not more. 
 

For the carriages, Slaters kits are £80 each. Lionheart say there’s will be £110 each. Doubt you’ll find someone to build you a Slaters carriage for £30!

 

 

[Phil Traxson]

31 minutes ago, e30ftw said:

Excellent news, but im going to be the one to say it....................that price

 

O gauge prices for an OO size models. I know they have to cover R&D costs etc but trying to tempt people to give the (superior) narrow gauge size a go at that price is ambitious, although it looks highly detailed model of a popular prototype. 

 

As has been pointed out already,elsewhere if not here, if you buy a kit and have it on a decent chassis and mechanism, sound fitted  then have it built, there is no way you could get it for much less than double the asking price for this.

Coach kits are £80, can you get one built for £30, no chance. These are the comparisons you should be making.  

 

Andy Young beat me by seconds!! 

Edited September 27, 2021 by Phil Traxson

[009 micro modeller]

5 minutes ago, Andrew Young said:

Not that unreasonable if they’re going to be as detailed and accurate as Lionheart’s other models. An equally detailed kit for the MW would probably by in the £300 price bracket if not more. 

 

Remember also that NG models often end up costing slightly more than equivalent SG, as the market for them is often smaller (though this may not apply to the same extent in 7mm scale).

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, e30ftw said:

Excellent news, but im going to be the one to say it....................that price

 

O gauge prices for an OO size models. I know they have to cover R&D costs etc but trying to tempt people to give the (superior) narrow gauge size a go at that price is ambitious, although it looks highly detailed model of a popular prototype. 

 

Equally, Heljan/Bachmann OO9 prices are well up to the level of large standard gauge OO locos, it's all down to the relative volumes involved. Committed NG modellers accept the commercial realities to a degree that many OO and N devotees continue to resist. Picking a top-end "main-line" prototype first will test the potential size of a sustained market in r-t-r 7mm NG rather more convincingly than (say) a Quarry Hunslet at c£200 might.  

 

The loco price is pretty much in line with the much less impressive On30 Bachmann USA Baldwin 2-6-2T.

 

The outlay required will ensure these models won't be casual purchases. However, there are probably enough people who have spent many years longing for a quality r-t-r entry into 7mm NG to snap up the early releases without having to attract those who need to be "tempted" quite yet.  Their time will come with future releases (from Lionheart or others) portraying smaller, less expensive, industrial prototypes.    

 

John

Edited September 27, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[Mike Bellamy]

54 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Their time will come with future releases (from Lionheart or others) portraying smaller, less expensive, industrial prototypes.    

 

 

Indeed - who would have thought a few years ago that Bachmann would produce a comprehensive and expanding range of OO9 models.

[PaulRhB]

2 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

 

Remember also that NG models often end up costing slightly more than equivalent SG, as the market for them is often smaller (though this may not apply to the same extent in 7mm scale).

It will apply exactly the same, NG will remain a niche but I’m just glad it’s now commercially attractive enough to justify taking the risk.
The detail on the diecasting is well up to the standards only achieved in plastic a few years ago. 
They were heavy with a quality feel and that’s without the motor and wheels. 

 

2 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

 

Has anyone actually done an 016.5 garden railway? It should work as people use 00 outside and the track is pretty much the same, I've just never seen one, or heard of one.

There’s been an On30 one in recent editions of Continental Modeller and I used to run my O16.5 and Gn15 on our OO garden railway 30 odd years ago! 
 

2 hours ago, e30ftw said:

but im going to be the one to say it....................that price

 

O gauge prices for an OO size models. I know they have to cover R&D costs etc

But they are bigger than OO models and pretty much on a par with the Terrier in O gauge. You can’t really compare the volumes to the Bachmann On30 and that’s not exactly cheap now and that smaller market drives the price far more than the R&D etc

The only consolation I can give you is that a professionally built Gibson kit might well cost you £1500-2000 altogether. I model Swiss Om which is very similar in market and the little Tm2/2 four wheel shunting tractor is now £450 for basic DC and the BoBo Ge4/4 £1000+, I suspect the market for the RhB is similar across Europe to the market for these in the UK. 

[Compound2632]

Wow. For just a moment there I really thought of selling up the 00... But what originally sparked by enthusiasm for the L&B were the articles on Henry Holdsworth's indoor 16 mm/ft layout in the Railway Modeller in the early 80s. That would be the scale I'd go up to. A 2 ft long coach - that's serious mass.

 

That said, the 7 mm carriages at £110 look to me like better value than the Peco 4 mm ones at £42, which to my eyes don't quite look right.

 

Edit: apologies to @AdeMoore, who reacted before I'd finished editing!

Edited September 27, 2021 by Compound2632

[PaulRhB]

12 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Henry Holdsworth's indoor 16 mm/ft layout in the Railway Modeller in the early 80s. That would be the scale I'd go up to. A 2 ft long coach - that's serious mass.

And Accucraft did the 2-6-2 as an electric model plus the coaches and goods stock so you still could but that was 3 times these prices about ten years ago. I had Lyn and the coaches but cancelled my Lew when the 009 was announced as I had less space and had to dismantle the G scale layout. 
Here’s the live steam version of the same model a few weeks ago in my friends garden. 

The problem is space! In 16mm my layout was 15x10ft with only room for 2 coaches in the loop. 
 

In 009 I’ve done a shorty version of Lynton, roughly half length, in 4ft which fits 3 coach trains so I could scale it up to 7-8ft in 7mm. 
 

[Compound2632]

28 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

The problem is space! In 16mm my layout was 15x10ft with only room for 2 coaches in the loop. 
 

In 009 I’ve done a shorty version of Lynton, roughly half length, in 4ft which fits 3 coach trains 

 

Your 4 ft layout being the length of two of the 16 mm/ft scale carriages!

 

But if you are pushed for space, there's always 2 mm/ft scale:

 

 

Edited September 27, 2021 by Compound2632

[Jeff Smith]

Bachmann USA sells a G scale Baldwin Lyn, currently around $300.  I was recommended to steer clear of it a while ago though......

[PaulRhB]

7 minutes ago, Jeff Smith said:

Bachmann USA sells a G scale Baldwin Lyn, currently around $300.  I was recommended to steer clear of it a while ago though......

I had both, the first version was not great as the motor was poor and stamped rods but the revamped spectrum version was superb with a totally new chassis, superior livery application and quite happily ran with a OO sound decoder it drew so little current. 

I’m currently wondering if I can fit a shortened Barnstaple Town based on Bob Barnard’s plan, (http://www.009.cd2.com/lynton_and_barnstaple_modelling/barnard_barnstaple.htm), and shorty Lynton based on my 009 one in with a joining board, or two  

 

[Andrew Young]

5 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

 

Remember also that NG models often end up costing slightly more than equivalent SG, as the market for them is often smaller (though this may not apply to the same extent in 7mm scale).

Agreed. The market for 7mm scale narrow gauge rtr is quite a bit smaller than that for 009. And both considerably smaller than the American On30 market.
 

After nearly 30 years modeling in 7mm narrow gauge, I’m just pleased that the market conditions are allowing what looks to be a very accurate and well thought out ready to run model of one of my favourite locos in my chosen scale (I.e. 1/43 not 1/48). 
 

Andrew

[009 micro modeller]

43 minutes ago, Andrew Young said:

Agreed. The market for 7mm scale narrow gauge rtr is quite a bit smaller than that for 009.

 

I’m not sure it’s that much smaller, though I’m happy to be corrected; what I was getting at is that both are small compared to the standard gauge market in their respective scales, but there’s probably less of a difference in 7mm because 0 standard gauge doesn’t quite have the absolutely vast market that 00 has. I expect the number of 016.5 modellers nowadays is smaller than the number modelling in 009, but I wonder how many of the latter are new entrants attracted by recent RTR stuff (interestingly these tend to be 00 standard gauge modellers moving down in gauge, rather than N moving up in scale). When I first joined the 009 Society in about 2009 there seemed to be a more even split between the numbers of modellers in 4mm and 7mm NG but I don’t have any specific way to back that up, it just seemed that way at the time. Also, rather like American 0n30, the market and range of models produced for Continental European H0e and H0m is much bigger than equivalent British NG.

 

At one point I considered 016.5, but found that 009 was better for me at the time, mainly because of the ability to build things in smaller spaces, among other considerations. With hindsight I would probably do the same again (without being particularly affected by the increase in 009 and H0e RTR over the past decade), though when I was starting out I was also briefly interested in 09 (9mm gauge but 7mm scale, representing minimum gauge). It would have been good for my initial layout (loosely based on an 18” gauge prototype), but seemed a bit too niche for a beginner and may have slightly limited what I could have done afterwards. I have since considered 09 again on a few occasions but not done anything in 7mm yet.