1930s GWR Layout Signalling help

[RJS1977]

If there was a level crossing at the Down end of the station, the Down starter would be before the crossing, to protect it.

[The Stationmaster]

If there was a level crossing at the Down end (a little unusual with an overbridge at the other end and near the entrance to a tunnel) then a small Crossing Keeper's cabin and slots on the signal and the Down Starter would have to be in rear of the crossing to protect it.  It would be a very small signalbox if you decided to put it at that end far better to have it near the concentration of pointwork especially if things aren't going well!   

 

I agree with Michael Hidgson's comment about the position of the Home Signal in relation to the tunnel although real world practice did vary somewhat - no doubt dependent on other factors as well as the presence of the tunnel.  as dar as the signal at the advfanced end of the II Up platform is concerned having it nearer the bridge and away from the platfrm end would not be in the least unusual - in fact at the first place I looked at on line (a GWR station) that was exactly the case with the signal being well in advance, but less than a train length, in advance of the platform.  

 

As far as passengers are concerned the problem usually only arises if a calling train is longer than the platform, irrespective of where the signals are!

 

Now a couple of oddities - the first being GWR where on a branchline the original signal box was near neither the concentration of pointwork or the level crossing which it locked.  It replacement, which wasn't erected until 1961, was right next to the level crossing and pretty close to the pointwork.   And as for things which can't happen never be surprised about 20 years ago in a very hilly area of southern France I was driving up a mountain round and passed under a bridge carrying a narrow gauge line.   Carrying on a little further uphill the road went round a hairpin bend and then - in effect doubling back - recrossed the same railway line but by means of a level crossing, which was situated immediately outside the mouth of a tunnel.n the railway.   judging by the line's weekend tourist trains it would be quite possible for a train to be simultaneously partially in the tunnel, partially crossing the road at the level crossing, and partially again crossing the road on the bridge.  Do that on model and you'd be laughed out of any forum  or exhibition you care to name

 

Sorry to go wildly OT but I have found it ' remarkably quickly - but somewhat changed on Google.  The road has changed massively although you van make out the old part of it on the right where it goes back and slightly downhill initially parallel to the railway.  The hairpin bend would have been in the middle of what is now the much wider  replacement road and it got closer to the rock face before crossing the railway.  Looking back the other way the road used to pass under the railway immediately past the station building on the right off the line and its former has clearly been filled to raise the ground level where it no longer needs to dip under the railway.

 

 

 

 

This railway also has another level crossing (of a main road!) at a tunnel mouth so for those who say such things don't happen pop over to the south of France -

 

 

 

[RailWest]

....This railway also has another level crossing (of a main road!) at a tunnel mouth so for those who say such things don't happen pop over to the south of France......

 

...or just go to Greenland Mill Crossing at Bradford-on-Avon :-)

[The Stationmaster]

51 minutes ago, RailWest said:

....This railway also has another level crossing (of a main road!) at a tunnel mouth so for those who say such things don't happen pop over to the south of France......

 

...or just go to Greenland Mill Crossing at Bradford-on-Avon :-)

 

But not when it's on manual operation because unless they've changed a lot all you get from road vehicle drivers is a load of abuse when you start the lights sequence and lower the barriers as they approach the crossing.  It got so bad on one occasion we finished up having to call the police to attend because of threats of violence to our chap who was manning the barriers on that occasion.   Dismal spot too - much sunnier in the south of France ;).

[Keegs]

Not sure if I should be reviving an old thread or should have created a new one, but this is what I've been busy with over the past month. It is a fictional station perhaps called West Harwick "inspired by" Southam road and Harbury on the often overlooked London-Birmingham line, however it will be positioned between Leamington and Lapworth(Before it turns to quad track)

 

As is often necessary in our hobby some compression has occurred, I have tried to limit this to the removal of the Down refuge siding and compression of that side of the station(Which will be added in when I buy a house as I'm currently renting a 2 bed flat).

 

I am unsure about the operation of the cattle dock or if it is in the right space but I will make a separate post for that.

 

I have chosen to go with Large radius points for the main line and medium for the yard, I know this has been controversial but Peco have advised that their medium radius Bullhead points are now delayed till the end of the year and I was rather hoping that I can start this by August.

 

The signalling I think is at least partly right going off pictures Here and in my book "Paddington to the Mersey"

 

Here goes:

 

Large squares 1ft small squares 2", It is a roundy with x5 staging yard roads, the longest able to fit up to an eleven coach express with a King however I haven't been able to find reliable information about the prewar formation of the Cambrian Coast Express(Hauled by a Castle) so I may end up just making it generic.

 

As always constructive feedback is welcome!

 

Cheers,

Kegan

Edited April 2, 2022 by Keegs
Minor grammar and spelling

[Michael Hodgson]

I think a new thread would have been preferable here.  Unfortunately I've mislaid my signed copy of Paddington to the Mersey by Hendry & Hendry, and although I remember them writing it, I don't remember whether they included plans or signalling diagrams as was their practice in some of their other books, 

 

However you have definitely misread the position of the cattle dock/goods shed - it's a little clearer in this view you linked to  https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrsrh284.htm   The cattle pen is to the left of the corrugated iron hut, so I think the wagons would have to be pushed past the side of the goods shed and loaded from that very short platform just visible to the right of that hut.  That track looks like it could be used for end loading of machinery etc too.  But there's not much room to push wagons out of the end of the goods shed.  All in a very compact area so it should give you a bit more space than you've used!

 

Passenger lines have to be protected from goods sidings or loops by a trap - the Up relief and Down Yard in your case.

The positioning of your signals is wrong relative to pointwork.  Pointwork is protected by signals, and as trains are required to stop short of signals at danger, signals are placed before the fouling point of a convergence.   The means your Down line signal wouldn't be aligned with the middle of the diamond crossing.  The presence of the diamond (rather than a simple Up Main/Down Main crossover) would be a bit odd unless you also provide enough headshunt to hold some stock (where that solitary wagin is standing in this view https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrsrh1602.htm)   Up Home and exit from Up Relief should be before the trap points, and you also need a number of shunt signals.

 

[The Stationmaster]

The diamond would almost inevitably have been a single slip in order to create a crossover between the main running lines.  as already mentioned there is a need to provide a trap point for teh goods yard (a single tongue dummy trap would be the best answer to that) and probably for what I am presuming is an Up Loop/Goods line.

 

The signalling really comes back to a 'start again' situation.  The down Home Signal would really have to be at the approach end of the station platform as it would be difficult to site and sight (due to the footbridge) if put in the normal protecting position for the crossover/connection to the yard.  There would probably then be a further stop signal on the Down protecting the exit trailing connection from the yard (the Starting Signal) and finally another stop signal (the Advanced Starting Signal) at the end of the visibly modelled are although you could - depending on lineside features etc - possibly assume that it is 'off stage' (and so save yourself a few £s).

 

On the Up line there would be a stop signal (the Home Signal) applying to the Main Line protecting the connection from the Goods Line (or whatever it is) and another stop signal for that Goods etc Line to control access out onto the Main Line.  There would then be a Starting Signal where you have included one.

 

Plus - as already mentioned a few ground shunting signals - about half a dozen of them at a quick count

[RJS1977]

I don't know how far on you are with construction, but looking at your plan, having that crossover crossing a board join may not be ideal as it could make separating the boards more difficult if you move (unless you've cut through the rails and used copper clad sleepers or similar to secure the rails to the baseboard). And yes, we've all done that where no alternative was available!

 

As an alternative, may I suggest:

 

* Moving the station buildings to the Up platform.

* Moving both platforms 18" or so to the left

* Running the siding behind the down platform the full length of the platform.

* Having the crossovers at the Up end of the station, linking to the line behind the Down platform.

 

That way, not only have you relocated the crossover away from a board join, you've got your Down Refuge back!

 

Of course, you may have made sufficient progress for this to now be too late....

[Keegs]

14 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

I think a new thread would have been preferable here.  Unfortunately I've mislaid my signed copy of Paddington to the Mersey by Hendry & Hendry, and although I remember them writing it, I don't remember whether they included plans or signalling diagrams as was their practice in some of their other books, 

 

However you have definitely misread the position of the cattle dock/goods shed - it's a little clearer in this view you linked to  https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrsrh284.htm   The cattle pen is to the left of the corrugated iron hut, so I think the wagons would have to be pushed past the side of the goods shed and loaded from that very short platform just visible to the right of that hut.  That track looks like it could be used for end loading of machinery etc too.  But there's not much room to push wagons out of the end of the goods shed.  All in a very compact area so it should give you a bit more space than you've used!

 

Passenger lines have to be protected from goods sidings or loops by a trap - the Up relief and Down Yard in your case.

The positioning of your signals is wrong relative to pointwork.  Pointwork is protected by signals, and as trains are required to stop short of signals at danger, signals are placed before the fouling point of a convergence.   The means your Down line signal wouldn't be aligned with the middle of the diamond crossing.  The presence of the diamond (rather than a simple Up Main/Down Main crossover) would be a bit odd unless you also provide enough headshunt to hold some stock (where that solitary wagin is standing in this view https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrsrh1602.htm)   Up Home and exit from Up Relief should be before the trap points, and you also need a number of shunt signals.

 

Thanks Michael,

 

I Understand how the Cattle dock and Goods Shed were in the real thing, but as you mentioned it was all quite compressed.

 

I am not modelling the station exactly but merely using it's track plan as inspiration. The buildings will be of a different design and the yard will have more operational value.

 

I raised the cattle dock question in this post, the angle needed is in the aforementioned book which I took a photo of I don't know if that is allowed but felt it integral to the question.

 

Given this information I altered the layout of the goods yard to fit more wagons in a small space(3 wagons in the cattle dock as opposed to 2 and I will use a goods shed of the Brick variety), extra storage siding added etc, I did put a Diamond Crossing in by mistake (It should be a single slip) There are x3 Trap points on the image although I see now that it's not that clear. They are the Peco ones which I think is incorrect for GWR but are mainly there as a reminder for myself.

 

I was copying the ones from the prototype photos on the Righthand/Station side of the layout however found no photos of the further signals(on the left of the layout)

 

The Signals I will take a better look and re-do them tonight (7:48AM here!)

 

 

Cheers!

Edited April 4, 2022 by Keegs
Added clarification that the layout merely draws inspiration from the track plan and is not meant to be a direct copy.

[Michael Hodgson]

14 hours ago, Keegs said:

I was copying the ones from the prototype photos on the Righthand/Station side of the layout however found no photos of the further signals(on the left of the layout)

 

I wouldn't assume the distant arms under the starting signals.  The distant signals for your own model are of course off-scene.

But these lower distant arms imply the next box is not far away (say 1000 yds to a mile), which would have been the case Up Line at Southam Road & Harbury, as there must have been a box to control access to the Lime company's sidings.  Less likely to be another box nearby in the Down direction, though I don't know.  The same lime company also had sidings at the town's other station which was a little closer to Southam (Southam & Long Itchington, LNWR).  The word "Road" in a GWR station name did tend to mean the station wasn't in the town and so you had a long walk!  The GW station was closer to Harbury, but that seems a place of even less consequence.

[The Stationmaster]

Southam & Harbury Signal Box was 1496 yards north of Greaves Siding Signal Box with a dip between them so an initial falling gradient in both directions followed by a rising gradient although the gradients were not steep.  I don't know how far the most advanced Starting Signals were from their respective signal boxes but in both cases they would have been at least a couple of hundred yards.  

 

Interestingly in 1963 - at a time when the Class 1 trains were being dieselised and accelerated - additional outer lower arm distants were provided at both Southam & H and at Greaves Siding for the section between them which suggests that the original single lower arm distant must have been pretty tight for braking distance at line speed.

 

The next box in the Down direction from Southam & Harbury was  the break section 'box at Kingcote, two and a quarter miles from the 'box at Southam & Harbury.  So definitely no need ever for any lower arm distant signals on the Down at Southam & H.

[Keegs]

On 03/04/2022 at 22:41, The Stationmaster said:

The diamond would almost inevitably have been a single slip in order to create a crossover between the main running lines.  as already mentioned there is a need to provide a trap point for teh goods yard (a single tongue dummy trap would be the best answer to that) and probably for what I am presuming is an Up Loop/Goods line.

 

The signalling really comes back to a 'start again' situation.  The down Home Signal would really have to be at the approach end of the station platform as it would be difficult to site and sight (due to the footbridge) if put in the normal protecting position for the crossover/connection to the yard.  There would probably then be a further stop signal on the Down protecting the exit trailing connection from the yard (the Starting Signal) and finally another stop signal (the Advanced Starting Signal) at the end of the visibly modelled are although you could - depending on lineside features etc - possibly assume that it is 'off stage' (and so save yourself a few £s).

 

On the Up line there would be a stop signal (the Home Signal) applying to the Main Line protecting the connection from the Goods Line (or whatever it is) and another stop signal for that Goods etc Line to control access out onto the Main Line.  There would then be a Starting Signal where you have included one.

 

Plus - as already mentioned a few ground shunting signals - about half a dozen of them at a quick count

 

 

Well, it seems Rmweb has deleted my previous picture(which is odd seeing as it was posted AFTER the snap!)

 

Anyway, hopefully I've interpreted your Signalling correctly Mike, if not I'm sure you will let me know! 😁

 

 

It should be mentioned that this layout will be semi-permanent and not portable. I have a small "Inglenook" for that...

 

 

Cheers!

[The Stationmaster]

5 hours ago, Keegs said:

 

 

Well, it seems Rmweb has deleted my previous picture(which is odd seeing as it was posted AFTER the snap!)

 

Anyway, hopefully I've interpreted your Signalling correctly Mike, if not I'm sure you will let me know! 😁

 

 

It should be mentioned that this layout will be semi-permanent and not portable. I have a small "Inglenook" for that...

 

 

Cheers!

OK with one exception and that is the Up line signal by the signal box which shouldn't be there - maybe it's meant to be the Up Relief Line Home Signal but it's in the wrong place as that should be level with the Up Main Line Home Signal?

 

I would be inclined to move the Down Starting Signal a little to the left bringing it level with the 'vee' in the point in the yard on its left.

 

I presume that the other symbols are ground shunt discs and if that is the case several of them are in the wrong place.  The one for the yard exit should be at the toe of the trap point on the side away from the Down Main.  The one further back in the yard isn't needed; the one reading out from the cattle dock siding to the single slip and Up Line is in the correct place.  the one on the Down main should be at the toe oof the single slip connection in the Down Main and sited in the six foot between the two Main Lines.  Both of the disc signals applying to the Up Main Line are in their correct places in the six foot.   So three correctly sited, two to move to the correct side of the line to which they apply, and one not needed at all.  Gives you a total of 5 needed which is right down on the minimum whic was the way it was done at Southam & Harbury.