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DCC Sound v Non Sound


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5 hours ago, The Black Hat said:

 

 

Yes this might be a personal preference but in terms of driving and control it is a lot easier and a lot more responsive. As someone who does operate, response and the speed to adapt is something thats important. This method of using the throttle to then control in recent years has been taken further with the addition of what some call "drive-lock". This then allow the engine to have the throttle opened fully with the sound to match while then holding the engine to a constant speed when a heavy train is moving. Controlling this on the Hattons class 66 is a master-stroke as it means full power and sound can be applied - just like the real thing. If ever a button or function is needed to be used to help control the engine then this is exactly how its done. You then release drive lock and control the engine fully, with it being much, much more responsive. I am building my new larger exhibition layout and this will make brilliant operation and much more entertaining viewing for those seeing what happens. 
 

 

Hi David,

 

Sorry about the multiple posts, but I want to provide as clear as possible response to your concerns. I also realise that there have been and will be a number of references to 'my sound projects'. The reason I use these for illustration is that I can  write accurately about what know is possible.

 

Operating with little simulated inertia or momentum (CVs 3 and 4 respectively), as would be the case on pure DC analogue (some PWM DC contollers can simulate these effects too). is a legitimate and valid way to run your locos.

 

For sound locos, though, there are some advantages of operating with at least modest values in each. The major one being that the sounds playing can be more easily matched to the movement.

 

If, for instance, (try this and you'll see) you were to set CV4 = 0 in a diesel electric sound project, then from high speed quickly reduce the throttle to zero, the model will stop almost instantly but the engine sounds may well still be spooling down. Sound project creators have worked hard to reduce or eliminate this effect with varying success. It's highly dependent upon how the real loco's engine spools down.

 

Drive lock, or the ZIMO equivalent Speed Lock, may be a useful feature for some people.

 

You suggest that this is the way to go. Drive or Speed Lock requires the operator to give up throttle control entirely so that the engine sounds can be manually adjusted. That does not sit well with the need to be in absolute control of the acceleration and deceleration via the throttle in my view.  That the feature works is not in any doubt (Speed Lock is in almost all of my projects) but whether it's the best way in absolute terms is moot.

 

Please don't misunderstand my position on this. I'm not against any any feature which enhances the experience for the operator (or audience), but similar effects (disconnection between speed and engine sounds which someone suggested earlier was impossible) can be achieved without giving up control of the road speed to enable it.

 

Although I do include it in my projects, I don't use the feature as it seems counter intuitive to me (that's my personal opinion only).

 

Interesting to note that the new Bachmann Class 47 which uses an ESU decoder does not have drive lock featured in the functions list, but there are a couple of unused F keys so it may be possible to add later.

 

To see what can be achieved by other means, turn up any YouTube video of SLW sound fitted Class 24 which has one of my ZIMO sound projects as the factory fitted sound option and you will see the sort of thing you seek - engine at middling or high power when moving off, engine low power or idling when cruising, even at high speed, or when slowing down. These effects, controlled by the way the throttle is used, have been around on ZIMO for far longer than Drive Lock or Speed Lock features.

 

Best regards,

 

Paul

 

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7 hours ago, The Black Hat said:

 

 

Finally, the other area that is an issue is the layout of funcitons on decoders. Take one for example... the Guards whistle. This features on just about every possible sound decoder, for one reason or another. Yet, even on some deocders coming from the same programmer, it can jump around on which function it is located. The only way to resolve this is to re-programme the functions so that they are all the same on all deocders.  But with so many functions that are now going to be needed and helpful, such as track groan, wheel flange squeal, opening and closing doors, etc, we have an issue whereby proper operation is ham-struck because we don't use all the functions as at the exact number of that function does not come to mind. Thus the full range and performance sound can give is curtailed, meaning its accuracy is weakened. People watching would thus expect to hear some sounds as an engine does something but then not always hear them and in the end use that as a reason to attack sounds being unrealistic. Most people don't even realise that this is what is happening. People are not aware of just how much attention people start paying when sounds are being used. Its clear that when sound is used your able to anticipate much more, just as you would when being lineside in the real world.

Thats also the fun of viewing at exhibitions, as people try to predict what is happening and where. Looking at the changing signals, points changing and now sound too - so that people can see your small miniature world come alive and see how they compare to the operators on the far side in control of it. For those operators, sound can be such a massive way to show such realism but also add to the performance and thats why sound is there to be harnessed but it needs more uniform set up on decoders so that you don't need to remember everything and instead can focus on running a layout, just like the real thing. That way, sound will be truely seen for the extra benefit it is and drown out the sound (pun intended) of those that still attack it for no other reason than its progress afterall. 

 

Hi David,

 

Yes, the non standardised way that sound and functions are assigned to F Keys is a possible area of concern.

 

This has been discussed here and in person before. I'm sorry to say that there's not a great appetite due to the difficulties of making such a thing possible.

 

A couple of well known (in their fields) ZIMO sound providers some years ago devised a plan which still exists, to create a standardised way to assign K keys (on ZIMO). Once they had set out their scheme others were invited to follow it. May be some did, but I felt it was too restrictive, especially in not allowing for future developments and the introduction of new features. That's just within the ZIMO family.

 

Now imagine trying to align ESU, D&H, TTS, ZIMO and the US contingent, some of which will not allow 3rd parties to create projects for their decoders.

 

What if ESU were to have a feature on F key X, which was not available on ZIMO? Should a ZIMO functions list just have a 'F Key X not used' entry? Waste the opportunity to use the key for something else? Who would decide?

 

What if F Key Y (on any decoder type) was designated to control a sound which was not actually produced on a particular real loco type? Just leave it blank? Welcome the spare F key to add something else?

 

What if a new control feature became available like, say,  Speed Lock or Manual Braking after the standard F key assignments had been agreed? How could they be incorporated and assigned an F key in a useful range given the nature of the feature? When I designed the Manual Brake feature for ZIMO, I also gave a lot of thought about which key to assign the new feature to.

I knew that many European DCC controllers would allow users to select either 'Latching' or Momentary' action on any F key. I also knew that most if not all US designed systems locked users into mostly Latching mode, with one, FKey 2, either set as Momentary or could be changed to this from default Latching.

 

In my view, and it was a judgement call, I felt that because of the dynamic nature of the feature, it was more important for the brake control to be assigned to an F key with Momentary action than a horn or whistle. (these are just sounds but Brake key has a function which controls the loco speed).

 

So, as the most widely available Momentry F key is F key 2, that is for me the only logical assignment. But, change the value in CV309 to suit the F key of your choice, and that becomes the new Brake Key for you.

 

There will be different views on this question, of course, but here's mine. The freedom and flexibility available when F key assignments are not set in stone allows the potential for future development and straightforward inclusion of 'new' sounds.

With ZIMO, there are a number of ways users can relatively easily re-assign sounds and functions to alternative F keys to suit their individual needs (or to match other sound projects), including their own version of standardisation across their own fleets. Best of both worlds in my view.

 

 

 

Best regards,

 

Paul

 

 

 

 

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I have enjoyed reading this debate, I'm sure some people are restating fixed positions but for me it's the first time I have read them.

 

Personally sound is a very long way down my priority list having a large layout to build with all the scale up that goes with it - about 23 square metres of boards to landscape to start with.

 

My layout won't be silent by any stretch being in a loft and built with expansion allowances there's quite a lot of track noise. Not rumble but clickety- clack. 

 

In future there could be 6 trains and several locos in motion at once and I can't imagine them all with sound. What I might like would be a very low level of background noise for example a passenger train stops, then all the background noises can be heard but they are generated via the control system not the loco sound project because the control system will know what is happening. 

 

A high level of sound detail might be great for a BLT or an exhibition layout with no more than 2 units in motion but I can't imagine anything beyond that being pleasant.

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11 hours ago, RobinofLoxley said:

 

I have enjoyed reading this debate, I'm sure some people are restating fixed positions but for me it's the first time I have read them.

 

Personally sound is a very long way down my priority list having a large layout to build with all the scale up that goes with it - about 23 square metres of boards to landscape to start with.

 

My layout won't be silent by any stretch being in a loft and built with expansion allowances there's quite a lot of track noise. Not rumble but clickety- clack. 

 

In future there could be 6 trains and several locos in motion at once and I can't imagine them all with sound. What I might like would be a very low level of background noise for example a passenger train stops, then all the background noises can be heard but they are generated via the control system not the loco sound project because the control system will know what is happening. 

 

A high level of sound detail might be great for a BLT or an exhibition layout with no more than 2 units in motion but I can't imagine anything beyond that being pleasant.


You'd be surprised. Even with 6 trains running, most will be coasting along quite happily and not making too much sound. I have sun layouts with about 15-20 with sound working and engines will quite happily be doing very little, or making little sound when sat still on idle. 

With a layout like yours I bet sound will soon add a whole other level of detail and fun, that you can turn down if you like. Yes it might get louder but you can tweak that and once you start its a whole new level of fun. 

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17 hours ago, pauliebanger said:

 

Hi David,

 

I'm assuming that as you like to have sounds which match the movement,  your steamers don't have TTS sound decoders, amd I correct?. TTS are a bit light on the number of CV supported, so may not respond to my suggestions. (I don't know for sure either way).

 

Whilst the reaction to throttle increases may have been set up that way by default, there's no reason that I can think of why you should have to put up with this if it's not to your liking. Change the value in CV3 to something lower, until you get the reaction you require. Give this a go and let us know how you get on.

 

Shunt mode is for close working at high precision, the clue is in the name. it can be a usful feature, but it is, as you comment, a poor compromise 'work around' to achieve what you need. These sort of suggestions probably arise from others who have insufficient knowledge/understanding/experience of how to make the correct CV adjustments required.

 

From my previous response, you will see that there are a lot more ways to vary throttle response in some sound projects. Not all sound projects, even for the same decoder type, are created equal. Caveat emptor.

 

Best regards,

 

Paul

 


Hello, 

 

I shall try to take each point in turn as then I can respond likewise. To be honest, this can be helpful with the whole DCC Sound vs Analogue debate overall thats here, as DCC Sound and all its benefits are being discussed before then also being applied to operation. Most of the time I find that operation is the issue with DCC sound as its all there, but rarely ever fully utilised. 

You assume correctly about the majority of my steam pool. Most of mine do not have sound decoders mainly because I have saved up slowly and still have many fitted from decoders from a few years ago. I am still quite happy with my engines fitted with something like a ESU 3.5 decoder, mainly because the sound projects on them are so good. I mainly have Howes steam decoders for my engine fleet. There is the odd one from South West Digital, and the odd Hornby TTS that was purchased as the engine came fitted and for the engines role it will not be front and centre. Some Hornby steam come fitted ready with sound and while these are ok overall, they do have some issues, such as steam chuff to wheel revolution being out of sync. 

That is one reason why I went for Howes. Although the projects have been purchased some time ago, Bryans work was brilliant with these. Engines have the correct wheel to sound ratio and the recordings of the engines (including those using generic sounds for similar engines as the prototype were all scrapped) are all great. Bryans layout of functions to control sounds are more standardised across the range, making operation better and easier, even if occasionally there is slight discrepancies. Control of engines and a similar driving style is what I try to look for and get when buying new chips. Having some that operate completely different to others is just asking for trouble and means that you start to go down the line of having to remember each engine and the chip it has inside. A difficult task and one you don't want when exhibiting. 

I know others have come along and done sounds. Some of the DCC Costal ones are sounding good (I think I have an A2 from them but it was purchased second hand), but I have been buying ones I know of having seen them. 

The main benefit of the Howes decoders is the ease of operation and the fact that when using them they sound very good. As a result I still consider them some of the best on the market, especially for steam, as others do not sound as good and the control again (such as that damn dynamic brake) often is found to be lacking. 

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On 10/11/2021 at 17:36, Michael Hodgson said:

You could just go choo-choo and make chuffing noises.

 

Maybe we should all wear ear defenders at model railway shows?

Who said he didn’t? :senile:

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On 11/11/2021 at 17:08, pauliebanger said:

 

 

Actually, I agree that the current speakers have limitations. I recognise this as well as the next man. I've heard many of my carefully crafted projects strangled at the point of delivery - the speaker installation -but that's beyond my control


 

Paul, out of interest when designing and applying the sound files to a project would you use for example small (or even large) HiFi type speakers to monitor or do you use a good quality “enhanced” type Loco speaker?

 

Asking purely out of genuine interest, no axe grinding here…..I am in the sound for definite camp, but I always have to levels really quite quiet as in the real world when viewing from a field 100 yards away most diesels sound pretty quiet, and to my mind (ears?) having the level set as if your in the engine room is completely unreal.

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On 11/11/2021 at 17:26, Michael Hodgson said:

I used to live 4 miles from the East Coast Main Line and could hear Deltics when the wind was in the right direction.

Now I live 200 yards from the East Coast Main line, but I don't hear Deltics any more.  :(

Then you must have heard my Uncle playing “On Ikley Moore bar t’at” on many a Deltic horns, his favourite trick :D

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18 hours ago, pauliebanger said:

 

Hi David,

 

Sorry about the multiple posts, but I want to provide as clear as possible response to your concerns. I also realise that there have been and will be a number of references to 'my sound projects'. The reason I use these for illustration is that I can  write accurately about what know is possible.

 

Operating with little simulated inertia or momentum (CVs 3 and 4 respectively), as would be the case on pure DC analogue (some PWM DC contollers can simulate these effects too). is a legitimate and valid way to run your locos.

 

For sound locos, though, there are some advantages of operating with at least modest values in each. The major one being that the sounds playing can be more easily matched to the movement.

 

If, for instance, (try this and you'll see) you were to set CV4 = 0 in a diesel electric sound project, then from high speed quickly reduce the throttle to zero, the model will stop almost instantly but the engine sounds may well still be spooling down. Sound project creators have worked hard to reduce or eliminate this effect with varying success. It's highly dependent upon how the real loco's engine spools down.

 

Drive lock, or the ZIMO equivalent Speed Lock, may be a useful feature for some people.

 

You suggest that this is the way to go. Drive or Speed Lock requires the operator to give up throttle control entirely so that the engine sounds can be manually adjusted. That does not sit well with the need to be in absolute control of the acceleration and deceleration via the throttle in my view.  That the feature works is not in any doubt (Speed Lock is in almost all of my projects) but whether it's the best way in absolute terms is moot.

 

Please don't misunderstand my position on this. I'm not against any any feature which enhances the experience for the operator (or audience), but similar effects (disconnection between speed and engine sounds which someone suggested earlier was impossible) can be achieved without giving up control of the road speed to enable it.

 

Although I do include it in my projects, I don't use the feature as it seems counter intuitive to me (that's my personal opinion only).

 

Interesting to note that the new Bachmann Class 47 which uses an ESU decoder does not have drive lock featured in the functions list, but there are a couple of unused F keys so it may be possible to add later.

 

To see what can be achieved by other means, turn up any YouTube video of SLW sound fitted Class 24 which has one of my ZIMO sound projects as the factory fitted sound option and you will see the sort of thing you seek - engine at middling or high power when moving off, engine low power or idling when cruising, even at high speed, or when slowing down. These effects, controlled by the way the throttle is used, have been around on ZIMO for far longer than Drive Lock or Speed Lock features.

 

Best regards,

 

Paul

 


Taking this one in turn next...

 

This all links into how the sound comes from the engine and then how the engine responds to commands. In the main, the throttle is the means to which speed is controlled, as mentioned before. Its also a reason why I prefer to buy Howes or Biffo chips as they respond the same way to driving inputs from the controller. 

So, from a standing start and opening the throttle a little, you get slow movement, change in engine note and a bit of sound. From the same point of standing start, open the throttle fully immediately and you get lots of revs, lots of noise and engine attempts to get underway quickly - in other words thrash. It works the same vice versa for braking. Slow shut off, is gradual, quick turn off is emergency. 

Previously, sound programmers attempted to get around the chance of controlling sound with movement by 'notching'. This really should have been okay in practice, but then it was easy to foget just how many times you had pressed the notch button to keep applying more sound and power. Engines could be seen still applying power when slowing down. There was also delays in the signals being sent then changing the engine note of the loco. This can also be an issue with some engines normally just getting away. Some of the SWD projects I have can be seen having a long delay between throttle opening fully and sound of engine note changing, often meaning that the engine has signficantly increased speed despite sounding at idle. 

Enter Drive-lock (or Speed lock). This makes control much more realistic and a whole lot easier. From a standing start an engine can be asked to get underway slowly, you then lock the speed. Turn the thottle to open fully and the speed will remain the same while the engine takes full power. Thus with a heavy train an engine can be massively thrashing but moving slowly. Release drive lock and the speed will start to increase. Apply again for speed to only have increased a little. Doing this again over and over till, once at speed, drive lock can be released and control return to normal. 

It makes control of the engine so much easier as one function locks the speed of the engine, while the throttle then can control sound. That way the operator merely needs just one function, one or off to alter the engine and allow speed to increase or decrease to the changed throttle setting. You dont need to remember how many notches have been used, or which ones turn them on or off. Everything is controlled by one function button, throttle and by observing the engine. Thus, you can actually look and drive much more easily. 

For me, this has been the step change that DCC sound was needing, replacing an often adhoc and different system across different programmers with a function designed by ESU and encouraging programmers to use it. Thus again, programmers are setting it up in the same place - another step forwards. 

Bringing all this back to the OP - it shows that just like lights on buildings to add a realistic look, drive lock and sound can now be used more easily and thus be controlled more realistically to bring a layout to life and for better and more prototypical operation. That again, can now be more of an advantage in why DCC Sound can be better than not having it on standard DCC or angalogue. 

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My problem (and ok, it's a first World problem) is having locos with a mix of the above 'driving styles' and remembering which is which.... and being me, forgetting which it is half way through the movement. 

It would be nice if they were all the same but for me replacement or reblowing is not  financially an option, or even desirable if i want to mix and match different projects from different sources.

 

I'm still firmly in the sound camp though. Especially when set to reasonable levels.

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David,

 

Great that you have sound projects that work for you.

 

You mentioned earlier that you had a couple of steam locos which do not accelerate in the way you wish them to. I suggested that you reduce CV3 to a low value to overcome their sluggishness.

 

Have you had a chance to try this? Did it help?

 

Best regards,

 

Paul

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7 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

Paul, out of interest when designing and applying the sound files to a project would you use for example small (or even large) HiFi type speakers to monitor or do you use a good quality “enhanced” type Loco speaker?

 

Asking purely out of genuine interest, no axe grinding here…..I am in the sound for definite camp, but I always have to levels really quite quiet as in the real world when viewing from a field 100 yards away most diesels sound pretty quiet, and to my mind (ears?) having the level set as if your in the engine room is completely unreal.

 

Hi David,

 

I record at 96kHz and 32 bit float, double the frequencies and bit rates of those stipulated for DVD quality sound.

 

I process/edit at the same frequency and rate.

 

During the above stages, I use Shure monitor earphones or Sennheiser monitor headphones.

 

When the project is at a workable stage, I load it to a decoder and play it in the model through whatever speaker is usually fitted without modification of the model, or for manufacturers' r-t-r projects, I normally have an EP version of the model which allows testing and optimisation (with the manufacturers' selected speakers) well before the model comes to market.

 

In this way I can listen to sounds played by the same equipment as the end user will experience. I can then, by an iterative process, optimise the project's sounds for the most likely speakers for each model

 

Best regards,

 

Paul

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9 minutes ago, pauliebanger said:

 

Hi David,

 

I record at 96kHz and 32 bit float, double the frequencies and bit rates of those stipulated for DVD quality sound.

 

I process/edit at the same frequency and rate.

 

During the above stages, I use Shure monitor earphones or Sennheiser monitor headphones.

 

When the project is at a workable stage, I load it to a decoder and play it in the model through whatever speaker is usually fitted without modification of the model, or for manufacturers' r-t-r projects, I normally have an EP version of the model which allows testing and optimisation (with the manufacturers' selected speakers) well before the model comes to market.

 

In this way I can listen to sounds played by the same equipment as the end user will experience. I can then, by an iterative process, optimise the project's sounds for the most likely speakers for each model

 

Best regards,

 

Paul

Thanks for the comprehensive reply, it could explain why the decoders I have with your files sound so good :D

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The last sound editing I did was a voice over recorded on to U-Matic SP and a pair of DT100 phones…….after six or seven hours of editing with those on your noggin they have to be peeled off your head :lol:

 

Sad to say I do slightly miss those all nighters with a dead line the next day…….

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I’m not sure if I’m alone, but the main reason I chose to go DCC was because in my opinion it gave much smoother and better running, and I like to control the coasting and braking.  After around an hour running with the sound on, I do turn the sound off, because it’s like an “ ear worm “ and the noise stays rattling around my skull for hours after. 
 

I went to an exhibition ( remember them ) a few years ago, and there was a American layout on show. Not a problem in it’s self, but the operators had the sound much too  loud , the noise reverberated around the hall so much so you could hear it even in the entrance lobby. It wouldn’t of been so bad but you also have that constant bell ringing that the Americans love so much…

 

End of rant,

 

Martyn.

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Interesting subject. I have been playing around building Loksound projects for just over ten years now. Having spent a stint on the railways, my main focus has been realistic drive flows utilising minimal function button pressing. 
 

In saying this, too many sound fitted locos does become annoying for me. 
 

For the chap that hasn’t seen wheel slip on a model, I created a Loksound V4 project a few years ago that does this based on how aggressive the throttle is opened. 
 

This is an old project and I have now recorded much better audio through learning. 
 

Learning is the key to this whole hobby. With some basic knowledge of the prototype, some out of the box thinking and patience, locomotive sound projects will only get better. 
 

Linton Towell

 


Some 7mm Steam sound too running a sound flow based completely off regulator position. 
 

 

 

Edited by linton78
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15 hours ago, pauliebanger said:

David,

 

Great that you have sound projects that work for you.

 

You mentioned earlier that you had a couple of steam locos which do not accelerate in the way you wish them to. I suggested that you reduce CV3 to a low value to overcome their sluggishness.

 

Have you had a chance to try this? Did it help?

 

Best regards,

 

Paul


I really appreciate the advice on this, but right now thats on the back-burner. The layout is being constructed and programming engines will be some time off... 

Will let you know how I get on, but could be in a few months!

 

David

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As a relative newcomer (well, maybe returner) to the hobby, I (re) commenced with DCC (as opposed to DC) really for the greater ease, control and flexibility (in my eyes) it provided, eg not needing isolating sections etc. But once I’d purchased the first sound loco, that somewhat shaped my buying preferences in that direction. 
But I do use such locos selectively on sound, really the same as other leisure appliances in my house. For example, I have Sonos multi room audio in three rooms, but I don’t put it on in a room unless I’m in that room. I don’t put it on if I have the TV on in the same room. And I don’t put it on if I want to quietly read. But sometimes it’s on all over the place, because I might be drifting to and fro.
And that does bear some semblance to how I use DCC sound. Non-modelling visitors are always enthralled by sound, so when demoing/playing I will run sound. If I leave something running in for a while, I’ll put sound on, so I can hear at a distance. If shunting with a sound class 08, I’ll probably have that sound on, but (some) other locos circling with sound off…… until I decide it’s time to bring them into the yard/station/shed. And, part way through a session, I may switch off any sound. All of my sound locos are set up at a volume that seems right (to me) in a 3.5m x 2m room.

I guess what I’m trying to say is there is no right or wrong answer to this, and providing one is happy to use ones resources accordingly, the on/off switch on everything (Sonos and locos) is a powerful self-personalising tool.

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On 16/11/2021 at 10:55, Danemouth said:

The lack of standardisation of sound keys is a real pain in the ****. The attached document is how I tackled the problem on Danemouth.

 

I do find myself turning he sound off after a while and always when a loco is in the fiddleyard.

 

Dave

Danemouth Loco Roster.pdf 292.02 kB · 9 downloads

 

I have done a similar thing, except that I have an A5 ring-binder and create a separate card for each loco. Functions that I rarely use, I put in a smaller font and if I have changed the function mapping on any, as in this case where I made the compressor easier to access, and also the 'coast' option', then I just attach a red asterisk. Using an NCE Power-cab, by changing the function mapping on those two functions, it saves me having to go through the options button to expand the function accessibility. Instead, I can just use the main buttons immediately.

C44-9W (Dash9) (1005).doc

Edited by Steve Williams
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