DCC Sound v Non Sound

[steve1]

Incidentall, I resent being called a Luddite just because I choose not to follow the crowd down the DCC+ rabbit hole.

 

steve

[Simon Moore]

It's a very good question, it's one I have asked myself recently too.

 

I have some American outline ho which is dcc sound or dcc fitted. After a very short period I find myself turning the sound functions off as they become very irritating & distract from the pleasure of running them. I've still to hear a convincing steam loco with sound, diesels do sound ok but again become repetitive after a short period. I tend to avoid dcc sound layouts at shows if I can hear a Bachmann 20 or that same horn noise as it drives me mad. 

 

I wouldn't buy another sound fitted model. I'm happy for them to be just dcc. 

[Hamburger]

You are right, some sounds can quickly become annoying if you hear them for a long time especially at higher speeds on steam engines.
But then you simply have a bad sound project.
I have taken out all the sounds that have no longer convinced me and only use decoders that offer the right technology for that.

[SamThomas]

A good read & interesting if not often very different POV's.

 

As for my take I have 4 Diesels - G1206, Ludmilla (a noisy beast both full & model size), SNCF7200 and a BR218.

I have one OHE - BR03.

 

I'm happy with them but don't have the sound selected all of the time - I rarely select brake squeal because I feel that should come from the who train which brings me to my first & last steam locomotive with sound - a BR05**. This was the Trix version & a beautiful model, I was happy with the sound, very happy until one day my ears became attuned to the fact that the "cfuffs" were coming from the tender ! It just seemed wrong & when I was offered a good price for it....

On retrospect I could probably have had a small speaker intsllated in the smokebox.

 

I also had a full length ICE-3 but had the same "directional" issue.

 

So to me it's very important that the sounds, no matter how good they are need to be coming from the right (or virtually) the "right" place.

 

** A streamlined 4-8-4 with a big tender making it a very long locomotive which probably compounded the problem.

[boxbrownie]

8 minutes ago, SamThomas said:

A good read & interesting if not often very different POV's.

 

As for my take I have 4 Diesels - G1206, Ludmilla (a noisy beast both full & model size), SNCF7200 and a BR218.

I have one OHE - BR03.

 

I'm happy with them but don't have the sound selected all of the time - I rarely select brake squeal because I feel that should come from the who train which brings me to my first & last steam locomotive with sound - a BR05**. This was the Trix version & a beautiful model, I was happy with the sound, very happy until one day my ears became attuned to the fact that the "cfuffs" were coming from the tender ! It just seemed wrong & when I was offered a good price for it....

On retrospect I could probably have had a small speaker intsllated in the smokebox.

 

I also had a full length ICE-3 but had the same "directional" issue.

 

So to me it's very important that the sounds, no matter how good they are need to be coming from the right (or virtually) the "right" place.

 

** A streamlined 4-8-4 with a big tender making it a very long locomotive which probably compounded the problem.

Agree with the steam Loco issue of sound from the tender, it is often all to obvious and really spoils the effect.

[The Black Hat]

On 18/11/2021 at 08:21, Simon Moore said:

It's a very good question, it's one I have asked myself recently too.

 

I have some American outline ho which is dcc sound or dcc fitted. After a very short period I find myself turning the sound functions off as they become very irritating & distract from the pleasure of running them. I've still to hear a convincing steam loco with sound, diesels do sound ok but again become repetitive after a short period. I tend to avoid dcc sound layouts at shows if I can hear a Bachmann 20 or that same horn noise as it drives me mad. 

 

I wouldn't buy another sound fitted model. I'm happy for them to be just dcc. 

Thats your call, but there are some factors which again tend to get overlooked as everyone (including people that favour sound) are going to overlook. Firstly, some sound projects are going to be continued to be used and heard for some time yet to come. Your remark about the Bachmann 20 is a classic one - the project was not great and when the engine reduces power, it sounds something similar to a space ship dropping out of warp. Its something that you can hear and notice from some distance, not to mention the engine note on idle. Yet, people will have to just accept that they will still be around for a while. They are working, really they do the job and overall not too much wrong from them. 

People that stand the other side of the fence, watching the layout will be the ones that complain. But not every single sound chipped engine is going to have the latest chip and the latest sound projects. Some engines will have ones that work happily and fulfil a job. A sound project just a few years ago was the market leader and now they have been overtaken and it would be uneconomical to replace older versions for every single engine every time a new chip and project comes out. 

Steam projects are indeed, harder to record, master and produce. The sound of steam, as mentioned before, is always going to distort given the level of sound and the speakers ability to reproduce it. Even watching videos online of steam engines can have similar results. However, the depth of chuffs, the bark of the engine and whistle can all be produced closer to the original. Your still looking needing some imagination for the times when there is a rush of steam, but good sound projects can capture a lot of character and the extra functions can add even more activity and prototypical operation with steam. Its important to shop around, to find projects that work. Howes for me have been front runners for years - as they excellently captured a lot of what the prototypes would do. Even now they are the benchmark for me for steam. There are some new projects coming on, but I am still more than happy with the sound, drive and control of some of my steam projects that I have had for years. 

Shutting down engines on the layout will help reduce sound and its being heard all day, but also often many engines sat still on idle will barely trouble you. As sound increased with better and bigger speakers this might be more of an issue. Often the noise was because higher trebble level sounds where heard and pierced the background noise so where obvious. Now depth of bass with bigger speakers will increase volume overall. However, I also think that they are fine to go into tenders. Often the speakers into the tender add a much better quality speaker so you can have sound that comes from the engine overall. Your not right at the front, but then seen from distance this is not so much of an issue. The better quality also means the sounds are cleaner and when also adding in more sounds from functions covers all areas of the engine, rather than just the front. 

Yes some sounds get tedious when in use for a while, but a decent operator, with activity and variety of stock can overcome all this and showcase a layout with sound that adds far more than either analogue or just DCC, even if or some that's what they would rather have. 

[newbryford]

On 11/11/2021 at 14:54, pheaton said:

I Think he is referring to the older Howes projects Paul which are a bit a pain when it comes to the project going through the full restart process when the loco stalls, but im certain i saw a post which tells you which CV to alter when it comes to that.

 

 

 

CV124=6 works on ESU v3.5 decoders to disable the start up sequence and also retain speed on a power drop out.

 

[samfieldhouse]

For me, I just can't stand DCC sound. I think it's awful. It makes me want to cut my ears off. I'd sooner burn my layout than put sound locos on it.

When I hear them at exhibitions it's like an infinite chorus of tortured souls bemoaning their fate.

Does that make my feelings clear or is additional hyperbole required?  

[4901]

I've thought about using recordings such as Peter Handford's on a stereo system under the layout that works with a timetable.   

 

 

 

[Phil Bullock]

On 11/11/2021 at 14:11, pheaton said:

Anyone revving the living daylights out of a D+E loco at zero mph is not driving it correctly...

 

Are you thinking of those delicate beasts with Crompton Parkinson electrical gubbins fella?

 

Those of us who were fortunate enough to experience hydraulics at Reading in the 70s experienced plenty of notch 7 off the platform ends 

 

Drive lock on a good sound project can facilitate replication ….

[The Black Hat]

2 hours ago, samfieldhouse said:

For me, I just can't stand DCC sound. I think it's awful. It makes me want to cut my ears off. I'd sooner burn my layout than put sound locos on it.

That's ok... we'll watch.... 

[boxbrownie]

12 hours ago, samfieldhouse said:

For me, I just can't stand DCC sound. I think it's awful. It makes me want to cut my ears off. I'd sooner burn my layout than put sound locos on it.

When I hear them at exhibitions it's like an infinite chorus of tortured souls bemoaning their fate.

Does that make my feelings clear or is additional hyperbole required?  

For your own health I’d really strongly suggest you don’t bother trailing a sound Loco then 

[pheaton]

16 hours ago, Phil Bullock said:

Are you thinking of those delicate beasts with Crompton Parkinson electrical gubbins fella?

 

Those of us who were fortunate enough to experience hydraulics at Reading in the 70s experienced plenty of notch 7 off the platform ends 

 

Drive lock on a good sound project can facilitate replication ….

bah  043 would take anything your threw at it electrically.....even withstood being reversed at 25mph (twice) 

 

you and oil sloshers phill..when you will you see the light

 

 

 

 

[Pete the Elaner]

18 hours ago, samfieldhouse said:

For me, I just can't stand DCC sound. I think it's awful. It makes me want to cut my ears off. I'd sooner burn my layout than put sound locos on it.

When I hear them at exhibitions it's like an infinite chorus of tortured souls bemoaning their fate.

Does that make my feelings clear or is additional hyperbole required?  

 

So why didn't you simply ignore this thread?

[PhilH]

I have two layouts, one American outline based on a generic downtown part of some city or another, the other one based on a small British terminus situated somewhere vaguely in the West Country. The US one is comprised of 100% sound fitted locos, both steam and diesel, the British one has a sound system playing background sounds of trains, shunting, etc., not directly associated with the movement of trains on the layout but simply creating an ambience (although the sounds are of engines that can be found on my layout). Along with this on my phone I play one of the many countryside ambient sounds items available on YouTube, birdsong, running water etc. This is one of them https://youtu.be/QW1i9vYitmE

 

 

As has been mentioned before I usually turn off the direct sounds emanating from the locos on the US layout after about 20 mins, no matter how quietly I have them they really do start to grate after a while. Conversely I can keep the sound as described on the British layout going for as long as I choose to operate it…the brain, my brain at least, disassociates itself from the fact that the sound is not directly emanating from the movement of the trains and the countryside sounds lend the necessary atmosphere to create the soundscape I’m after. Indeed I find that this combination is extremely relaxing making for some immersive operating sessions.

 

I know this approach won’t be for everyone but it certainly works for me.

 

Edited December 17, 2021 by PhilH
Punk,queuashun” and spillung

[Andy Keane]

On 15/11/2021 at 19:00, pauliebanger said:

 

Hi David,

 

Sorry about the multiple posts, but I want to provide as clear as possible response to your concerns. I also realise that there have been and will be a number of references to 'my sound projects'. The reason I use these for illustration is that I can  write accurately about what know is possible.

 

Operating with little simulated inertia or momentum (CVs 3 and 4 respectively), as would be the case on pure DC analogue (some PWM DC contollers can simulate these effects too). is a legitimate and valid way to run your locos.

 

For sound locos, though, there are some advantages of operating with at least modest values in each. The major one being that the sounds playing can be more easily matched to the movement.

 

If, for instance, (try this and you'll see) you were to set CV4 = 0 in a diesel electric sound project, then from high speed quickly reduce the throttle to zero, the model will stop almost instantly but the engine sounds may well still be spooling down. Sound project creators have worked hard to reduce or eliminate this effect with varying success. It's highly dependent upon how the real loco's engine spools down.

 

Drive lock, or the ZIMO equivalent Speed Lock, may be a useful feature for some people.

 

You suggest that this is the way to go. Drive or Speed Lock requires the operator to give up throttle control entirely so that the engine sounds can be manually adjusted. That does not sit well with the need to be in absolute control of the acceleration and deceleration via the throttle in my view.  That the feature works is not in any doubt (Speed Lock is in almost all of my projects) but whether it's the best way in absolute terms is moot.

 

Please don't misunderstand my position on this. I'm not against any any feature which enhances the experience for the operator (or audience), but similar effects (disconnection between speed and engine sounds which someone suggested earlier was impossible) can be achieved without giving up control of the road speed to enable it.

 

Although I do include it in my projects, I don't use the feature as it seems counter intuitive to me (that's my personal opinion only).

 

Interesting to note that the new Bachmann Class 47 which uses an ESU decoder does not have drive lock featured in the functions list, but there are a couple of unused F keys so it may be possible to add later.

 

To see what can be achieved by other means, turn up any YouTube video of SLW sound fitted Class 24 which has one of my ZIMO sound projects as the factory fitted sound option and you will see the sort of thing you seek - engine at middling or high power when moving off, engine low power or idling when cruising, even at high speed, or when slowing down. These effects, controlled by the way the throttle is used, have been around on ZIMO for far longer than Drive Lock or Speed Lock features.

 

Best regards,

 

Paul

 

Paul, I have read this thread with much interest and want to dip my toe in as it  were. Could I seek your advice outside of this thread please using the RMweb messaging system?

regards

Andy

[AndrueC]

I've only operated one loco with sound. Unfortunately the loco failed and I ended up getting my money back but the experience was educational. The loco was a Dapol N-gauge class 68 'Oxford Flyer' so clearly one thing going against it was the size. A small speaker means a small sound.

 

I was actually quite impressed. I'll admit to a lack of experience of what they should sound like up close but from my operator's view point (effectively fifty metres above the locomotive) it didn't sound at all out of place. The running sounds also seemed appropriate as did the different braking sounds depending how you slowed.

 

The only thing that is putting me off getting any more sound equipped locos is the start-up. I'm pretty sure it's realistic but after the novelty wore off I could see it being annoying. The first time you tell the loco to move it took around a dozen seconds to rev up before it got going. Subsequent restarts don't take as long which is a bit of a relief. I don't think the start-up was wrong..I just don't think I personally could put up with it and seems a shame to just disable it.

 

But I would like to play with sound again and I'm thinking of getting an enabled steam loco when one appears. Presumably will still have a low acceleration but I'm also curious how it will sound. N gauge has the problem of small speaker size but that's - perhaps - offset by the distance we stand from the loco. If you're hovering fifty metres above a loco you probably shouldn't expect bowel shaking base tones.

[boxbrownie]

3 hours ago, AndrueC said:

I've only operated one loco with sound. Unfortunately the loco failed and I ended up getting my money back but the experience was educational. The loco was a Dapol N-gauge class 68 'Oxford Flyer' so clearly one thing going against it was the size. A small speaker means a small sound.

 

I was actually quite impressed. I'll admit to a lack of experience of what they should sound like up close but from my operator's view point (effectively fifty metres above the locomotive) it didn't sound at all out of place. The running sounds also seemed appropriate as did the different braking sounds depending how you slowed.

 

The only thing that is putting me off getting any more sound equipped locos is the start-up. I'm pretty sure it's realistic but after the novelty wore off I could see it being annoying. The first time you tell the loco to move it took around a dozen seconds to rev up before it got going. Subsequent restarts don't take as long which is a bit of a relief. I don't think the start-up was wrong..I just don't think I personally could put up with it and seems a shame to just disable it.

 

But I would like to play with sound again and I'm thinking of getting an enabled steam loco when one appears. Presumably will still have a low acceleration but I'm also curious how it will sound. N gauge has the problem of small speaker size but that's - perhaps - offset by the distance we stand from the loco. If you're hovering fifty metres above a loco you probably shouldn't expect bowel shaking base tones.

I find 100% of supplied sound chips are too loud, by quite a margin…..like you I equate sound and distance with much more reality than is the norm I feel.

[Chris M]

On 17/12/2021 at 15:33, Pete the Elaner said:

 

So why didn't you simply ignore this thread?

Seems to me that Sam has a right to express his opinion. Remember this thread is about whether sound is enjoyable in the long term and has drifted off into all sorts of intricate details about how to control the sound.

 

[Chris M]

I do not consider myself a luddite even though I have not spent hours and hours trying to achieve the perfect sound system. Its kind of annoying when some folk seem to think you are inferior to them just because you don't have the same interest.

 

I kind of have a foot in both camps on sound.

Out in the garden all my steam locos and a few of my diesels have sound fitted. I like this for the following reasons:-

1. The sound comes and goes as the loco runs round the garden. When farest away from me it can hardly be heard but when close it is loud enough. I can make them loud enough to be heard outside in the road but that's just not right.

2. Due to the weight and the metal wheels on G scale stock all of the train on the track sounds are also there. Some of my trains actually creek a bit on some of the bends which is nice. The important thing is that the whole train is represented as it passes close by with the sound of the train gently surpassing the sound of the loco as the loco gets further away. My "standard" G scale train is about 18ft long which is why the train sound will eventually overcome the loco sound.

3. Hearing a gentle steam chuff round the garden while sitting in the sun is just a most pleasant experience.

It has to be said that, whilst I love the diesel sounds when first switched on, they do get on my nerves after 15 minutes or so. The next door neighbours say the quite like to hear the gentle chuff of a steamy going round the garden but they don't comment about the diesels - probably enough said.

 

On my N gauge layout I really don't feel the need for sound locos. I can see why some folk like them and if it adds to the enjoyment for some modellers then that is a good thing. For me the speakers in both N and 00 are just too small to get anything like the real feel of the sound made by locos. Some 0 scale locos are OK for my ears. I do have recordings of skylarks, seagulls, cows, sheep and a tractor that I can play through a reasonable Bluetooth speaker under my N gauge layout. I think this adds to the atmosphere and I may well add a few more of this type of sound to my soundbank. I have to say that, at the moment, I don't find sound in smaller scale locos does anything for me. Indeed the "thinness" of the sound is a bit irritating and the attempts at emulating a BR diesel horn are mostly woeful. At exhibitions its nice to see sound equipped locos unless its an MPD or TMD. It does add an extra dimension which is fun but I don't think it adds a huge amount of realism of the model. Others will disagree and thats fine, its great that we are all different.

[Phil Bullock]

When a DCC sound loco makes my hair on back of neck stand up then its getting there for me! Howes Western sound file with the standard base reflex speaker install does it every time.... just like the real thing at Reading in 75/76. Somehow I think the shortly to arrive Accurascale Deltic will have the same effect....

[Andy Keane]

So what do people think is the best that could be achieved on a GWR tank engijne in 4mm scale? Clearly the speaker is going to be small - not sure more than a sugar cube is possible.

Andy

[Harlequin]

1 hour ago, Andy Keane said:

So what do people think is the best that could be achieved on a GWR tank engijne in 4mm scale? Clearly the speaker is going to be small - not sure more than a sugar cube is possible.

Andy

 

I have two speakers in my Hornby Large Prairie; a small sugarcube under the chimney and another with a much larger enclosure in the bunker/rear tank both with direct vents out of the body shell. I had to use a relatively big decoder that could drive the 4 Ohms resulting impedance. Fitting it all required huge amounts of surgery to both the chassis and the body but it's the best sounding loco I've got by a long chalk - above tender locos and railcars with even bigger single speakers.

 

https://youtu.be/ErJuCeHSpCA

 

The big speaker is important for reproducing the bass frequencies better and if that needs things to be cut about to fit it in that's what you've got to do, IMHO. And there's no point going to all that trouble if the sound has to bounce around inside the plastic body shell before you hear it so I also like to try to get a direct path out for the sound.

 

I suspect that the best that could ultimately be achieved would be to use the actual loco body as the sounding box for the speaker - so it, or part of it, would form a sealed resonant chamber, much larger than even the biggest standalone enclosed speaker we can buy at the present time. (Imagine the tanks and boiler of a pannier tank forming a properly designed sealed speaker enclosure with the driver facing downwards into the space between the tank and the frame... That could be amazing!)

 

Edited January 4, 2022 by Harlequin

[Phil Bullock]

Small locos are plainly more restricted as to what you can no but it isn’t always the rule that a bigger speaker is better… we milled a Dapol Western chassis to get an EM2 in but that resulted in loss of top end thrash … the large base reflex speaker that Dapol designed the model to fit gives a much better tonal range. 
 

Am not such a fan of DCC sound in steam but that may change as things develope. 1661 with Howes sound on an ESU V5 with the speaker Rapido fitted in the bunker is the one DCC sound steamer we have. Have tinkered with CV57 and 58 to get the synchronisation as good as I can but it isn’t perfect.

 

Heres a video … see what you think

 

1661 sound video

[Andy Keane]

2 hours ago, Harlequin said:

 

I have two speakers in my Hornby Large Prairie; a small sugarcube under the chimney and another with a much larger enclosure in the bunker/rear tank both with direct vents out of the body shell. I had to use a relatively big decoder that could drive the 4 Ohms resulting impedance. Fitting it all required huge amounts of surgery to both the chassis and the body but it's the best sounding loco I've got by a long chalk - above tender locos and railcars with even bigger single speakers.

 

https://youtu.be/ErJuCeHSpCA

 

The big speaker is important for reproducing the bass frequencies better and if that needs things to be cut about to fit it in that's what you've got to do, IMHO. And there's no point going to all that trouble if the sound has to bounce around inside the plastic body shell before you hear it so I also like to try to get a direct path out for the sound.

 

I suspect that the best that could ultimately be achieved would be to use the actual loco body as the sounding box for the speaker - so it, or part of it, would form a sealed resonant chamber, much larger than even the biggest standalone enclosed speaker we can buy at the present time. (Imagine the tanks and boiler of a pannier tank forming a properly designed sealed speaker enclosure with the driver facing downwards into the space between the tank and the frame... That could be amazing!)

 

Phil

That may have cost you much pain but I am very impressed with the result - if I can get that sort of sound around Helston I will be chuffed (sorry)!

I am planning to begin my sound odyssey with a Hattons 14xx which is nearly the smallest loco I have before I move on to a pair of Samhongsa small prairie brass locos I have that need DCC concersion as well.

I may also buy a sound fitted Dean goods to see how that pans out.

To me getting the sync correct with the con-rod motion is also pretty important and you also seem to have that nailed too.

What make of sound decoder do you use and whose sound files?

thanks as ever

Andy