£96bn Integrated Rail Plan

[DavidB-AU]

Details of a £96bn investment that the prime minister vows will transform Britain's rail network are set to be unveiled on Thursday. The Midlands and North of England will get the bulk of the money, which is being touted as the biggest ever public investment in rail.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-59320576

 

 

[JeffP]

8 hours ago, DavidB-AU said:

Details of a £96bn investment that the prime minister vows will transform Britain's rail network are set to be unveiled on Thursday.

The Midlands and North of England will get the bulk of the money,..... which is being touted as the biggest ever public investment in rail.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-59320576

 

 

Aye, right, until it turns into another "Well we've done what we wanted to do in London and the South East.

Thanks for voting for us but the money for the North etc has run out."

 

You know, a bit like European services or european sleepers from north of London, or the Eastern leg of HS2?

 

Heard it before, don't believe a word of it.

[Michael Hodgson]

If the Conservative and Unionist Party is sincere about wanting to keep the UK united, HS2 really ought to be extended to Glasgow and Edinburgh, never mind Leeds.  If you want to cut down on domestic flights for environmental reasons, it's the longer distance journeys that matter.  Once you're past the old industrial belt of southern Lancashire, it shouldn't be too difficult to find a route, albeit one that will raise a lot of fuss about disrupting the rural idyll, endangered midges etc.  And if they want to keep the support in areas which traditionally vote for the other lot, they really do need to look at upgrading local services to to places like Newcastle, Carlisle, Sheffield and Hull.  An integrated policy would mean better interchange with modern (electric) buses/trams or even trolleybuses in the larger conurbations.

[ess1uk]

guess we will have to wait for the details?

not looking good for Bradford though

[APOLLO]

The full report

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1034359/integrated-rail-plan-for-the-north-and-midlands-print.pdf

 

From here

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/integrated-rail-plan-for-the-north-and-the-midlands

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/integrated-rail-plan-biggest-ever-public-investment-in-britains-rail-network-will-deliver-faster-more-frequent-and-more-reliable-journeys-across-no

 

Lots of may, probably etc. Nothing seems firm.

 

Brit15

 

[John M Upton]

Never going to happen and as per standard UK Government practice, much of the 'new' money has already been announced at least once if not twice already.

 

Remember, Governments change, they can promise what they like because they know full well that by the time to actually deliver what they announced arrives, they will be long gone and it will be someone else's problem.

[Flittersnoop]

I'll be interested to see if the consolation prize for Leeds and Newcastle of money to upgrade the ECML means we'll finally get another viaduct at Welwyn!

[DaveF]

 

HS2 was never really going to anything for us in the far north east of England (Northumberland, Newcastle etc), perhaps today's announcement will produce better train journeys one day.

 

I wonder?

 

David

[Aire Head]

2 hours ago, ess1uk said:

guess we will have to wait for the details?

not looking good for Bradford though

 

It never does

[Michael Hodgson]

39 minutes ago, Flittersnoop said:

I'll be interested to see if the consolation prize for Leeds and Newcastle of money to upgrade the ECML means we'll finally get another viaduct at Welwyn!

I very much doubt it. 

 

We got our flyover here in Hitchin a few years ago, which eliminated the other main bottleneck impacting the suburban services, and having two such obstacles fairly close together is probably a bigger total delay than the sum of the the two individually.  I think it will cost rather more to remove the Welwyn one, since it's not just another viaduct (over a valley containing some very expensive property with influential residents), there's also the two tunnels to duplicate.  Our flyover meant the new bridge, some reuse of the original MR route from Bedford plus some new track on embankment over a greenfield site with associated pointwork and signalling changes. 

 

The capacity problem at Welwyn is exacerbated by the survival of services stopping at Welwyn North station on the double track section.  Withdrawing those (perhaps in favour of a faster service from WGC) would improve capacity, but it is used by passengers who have influence.  It must have been difficult to find a path for the shunting horse there in the good old days!.

[Michael Hodgson]

45 minutes ago, DaveF said:

 

HS2 was never really going to anything for us in the far north east of England (Northumberland, Newcastle etc), perhaps today's announcement will produce better train journeys one day.

 

I wonder?

 

David

You don't want to go fast on the Northumberland stretch of the ECML - enjoy the scenery !

[Ron Ron Ron]

1 hour ago, DaveF said:

 

HS2 was never really going to anything for us in the far north east of England (Northumberland, Newcastle etc), perhaps today's announcement will produce better train journeys one day.

 

Originally, it was never intended to be of benefit to the NE...nor the East Midlands...or connections at Crewe, etc, etc.

HS2 was born purely as a long term capacity solution to the WCML and subsequently, to provide additional relief to the ECML.

The original proposal was to selectively take the bulk of the intercity traffic away in the form of all the fast services between London and Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds, thus relieving the classic network.

Add-ons, were limited to classic-compatible traffic to/from Liverpool and Scotland (via the WCML) accessing the the line at the NW end.

All other routes comprise a tiny proportion of the traffic by comparison and were discounted.

 

It was purely about future capacity.

There was no intention to "level up" the regions, to prioritise speed (that was a spin-off benefit) or to serve other towns and cities along the way.

HS2 was never proposed or intended as part of a national HS network either.

The only additional services expected to use HS2, to make use of the available capacity and to also help relieve the WCML, were classic-compatible services to Liverpool and Scotland.

 

Although the scope of the project was widened, when it was formerly launched, a lot of what's been added or changed since 2010, could be said to be "mission creep", contributing in no small part to the massive cost inflation.

 

 

.

[Ben B]

3 hours ago, ess1uk said:

guess we will have to wait for the details?

not looking good for Bradford though

 

It never looks good for Bradford.  They had a golden opportunity a few years ago, when the city was still home to the famous Hole in the Ground (when the shopping centre didn't get built for years after the recession) when they could have built a shiny new combined station for the city.  They were talking about moving the law courts at that point anyway, that would have been the only really significant demolition needed, and if the council were still set on having a new shopping centre, surely it could have built under/around the new station, incorporated into the design.  Instead we've still got the too-small Interchange at one end of the city centre, Forster Square at the other (where a long-promised rebuild still hasn't happened), and finally the shiny new shopping centre smaller than what was promised, and even then which has empty shops, and which has effectively killed off many of the other shops in the rest of the city.  Commuter train services are admittedly good from Forster Square which was electrified decades ago, and which sees a fairly fast service, but through trains to wider destinations are still only early in the morning and late in the evening.  From the Interchange, it's 2 or 3 car diesel units and the odd longer train.

 

But it's ok, because every few months someone mentions some crazy scheme.  How many times have Leeds talked about rebuilding the tram network?  Or the trolleybuses?  Only a few months ago there was talk of trolleybuses to Bradford again, or tram-trains, or even re-opening part of the old Great Northern route (at the same time as the Government were filling-in Queensbury tunnel no less).  It sometime feels like it's all just bloody talk and money wasted on consultancy.

[JeffP]

I have to admit to a chuckle at Michael Hodgson's " endangered midges".

[Mallard60022]

Executive Summary: 

Optimist? Moi?

[Aire Head]

1 hour ago, Ben B said:

 

It never looks good for Bradford.  They had a golden opportunity a few years ago, when the city was still home to the famous Hole in the Ground (when the shopping centre didn't get built for years after the recession) when they could have built a shiny new combined station for the city.  They were talking about moving the law courts at that point anyway, that would have been the only really significant demolition needed, and if the council were still set on having a new shopping centre, surely it could have built under/around the new station, incorporated into the design.  Instead we've still got the too-small Interchange at one end of the city centre, Forster Square at the other (where a long-promised rebuild still hasn't happened), and finally the shiny new shopping centre smaller than what was promised, and even then which has empty shops, and which has effectively killed off many of the other shops in the rest of the city.  Commuter train services are admittedly good from Forster Square which was electrified decades ago, and which sees a fairly fast service, but through trains to wider destinations are still only early in the morning and late in the evening.  From the Interchange, it's 2 or 3 car diesel units and the odd longer train.

 

But it's ok, because every few months someone mentions some crazy scheme.  How many times have Leeds talked about rebuilding the tram network?  Or the trolleybuses?  Only a few months ago there was talk of trolleybuses to Bradford again, or tram-trains, or even re-opening part of the old Great Northern route (at the same time as the Government were filling-in Queensbury tunnel no less).  It sometime feels like it's all just bloody talk and money wasted on consultancy.

 

Bradford council have an obsession with putting a Station on the site of the old Adolphus Street Station (now St James Market).

 

Completely ignoring the fact the whole reason the GNR got involved with the Exchange in the first place was because it was too far away from the city centre.

 

On top of that if their pipe dream comes true they are wanting to do away with the present Interchange station as part of this plan. 

 

I cannot for the life of me figure out how a train going to the proposed site coming from the direction of Halifax and Manchester would access said station either.

 

 

 

Edited November 18, 2021 by Aire Head

[Ron Ron Ron]

3 hours ago, Aire Head said:

 

Bradford council have an obsession with putting a Station on the site of the old Adolphus Street Station (now St James Market).

 

Completely ignoring the fact the whole reason the GNR got involved with the Exchange in the first place was because it was too far away from the city centre.

 

On top of that if their pipe dream comes true they are wanting to do away with the present Interchange station as part of this plan. 

 

I cannot for the life of me figure out how a train going to the proposed site coming from the direction of Halifax and Manchester would access said station either.

 

 

 

 

A Bradford council politician was just on the 6pm news, being interviewed in St. James Market..

Talk of being let down, betrayed etc.

Clearly they are upset that their pet project has been stamped on.

The IR report discusses the choices TFtN put forward for Bradford (Page 95 and later pages).

One proposed site for the NPR station, was a parkway station out on the edge of town !

Another (the council's preferred option) was the St. James market site, which also appears to be in a poor location.

 

 

.

 

Edited November 18, 2021 by Ron Ron Ron

[Flittersnoop]

15 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

A Bradford council politician was just on the 6pm news, being interviewed in St. James Market..

Talk of being let down, betrayed etc.

Clearly they are upset that their pet project has been stamped on.

The IR report discusses the choices TFtN put forward for Bradford (Page 95 and later pages).

One was out on the edge of town !

Another was the St. James market site, which also appears to be in a poor location.

 

 

.

 

Why does no-one ever consider knocking Bradford down and rebuilding it somewhere more convenient?

[Aire Head]

15 minutes ago, Flittersnoop said:

Why does no-one ever consider knocking Bradford down and rebuilding it somewhere more convenient?

 

They tried and as usual they bottled it halfway through.

[Ben B]

3 hours ago, Aire Head said:

 

Bradford council have an obsession with putting a Station on the site of the old Adolphus Street Station (now St James Market).

 

Completely ignoring the fact the whole reason the GNR got involved with the Exchange in the first place was because it was too far away from the city centre.

 

On top of that if their pipe dream comes true they are wanting to do away with the present Interchange station as part of this plan. 

 

I cannot for the life of me figure out how a train going to the proposed site coming from the direction of Halifax and Manchester would access said station either.

 

 

 

 

That, I really don't get, unless somebody has a vested interest in the property prices of the interchange site.  Probably the same lunatic who was trying to (fairly literally) steamroller the demolition of the city centre theatre to free up the land, rather than turning it into the concert venue it's -finally, and sensibly- being transformed into.  Fairly ironic, as with the replacement Adolphus Street station way out of the city centre, the long walk or congested bus link will surely make the city even less attractive to visitors, and no developer is going to want to build some massive office block or luxury flats on the cleared Interchange site...  It's probably why nobody in officialdom made too much of an effort to build the combined station when the shopping centre was repeatedly delayed (though I knew a lad who was linked to the project, who was repeatedly banging his head against the metaphorical wall trying to persuade his colleagues the linked station was a good idea).

 

Might as well wish for a Gerry Anderson-inspired high-speed monorail to serve the city...

[Aire Head]

13 minutes ago, Ben B said:

 

That, I really don't get, unless somebody has a vested interest in the property prices of the interchange site.  Probably the same lunatic who was trying to (fairly literally) steamroller the demolition of the city centre theatre to free up the land, rather than turning it into the concert venue it's -finally, and sensibly- being transformed into.  Fairly ironic, as with the replacement Adolphus Street station way out of the city centre, the long walk or congested bus link will surely make the city even less attractive to visitors, and no developer is going to want to build some massive office block or luxury flats on the cleared Interchange site...  It's probably why nobody in officialdom made too much of an effort to build the combined station when the shopping centre was repeatedly delayed (though I knew a lad who was linked to the project, who was repeatedly banging his head against the metaphorical wall trying to persuade his colleagues the linked station was a good idea).

 

Might as well wish for a Gerry Anderson-inspired high-speed monorail to serve the city...

 

 

Bradford has a history of either 

 

1) Being completely screwed over everytime someone tries to do something that should be good for the city.

 

2) Making completely bizarre decisions regarding how it should try to develop itself.

 

Frankly I don't think we ever will see any meaningful investment in Bradford until it is swallowed by Leeds in the same way that Salford has been swallowed by Manchester.

 

Even then it will take too long. I live in the Aire Valley part of Bradford and it is already complete and utter carnage trying to move around anywhere.

 

 

[woodenhead]

14 minutes ago, Aire Head said:

Frankly I don't think we ever will see any meaningful investment in Bradford until it is swallowed by Leeds in the same way that Salford has been swallowed by Manchester.

 

 

Not sure how the folk of Salford would take that, quite seperate places, and some bizarre decisions to restrict traffic on the main route through the centre of Salford.

[balders]

34 minutes ago, Ben B said:

unless somebody has a vested interest in the property prices of the interchange site

Barbara's new Jag isn't going to buy itself you know. With Brexit and Covid and the escalation of absolutely everything in price, prime real estate and local politics remain inextricably linked, and balls to common sense!

 

Regards

 

Guy

[Oldddudders]

17 hours ago, Aire Head said:

 

They tried and as usual they bottled it halfway through.

So we can now get Bradford in bottles? Intriguing!

[Michael Hodgson]

12 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

So we can now get Bradford in bottles? Intriguing!

 

I think you could get bottled Bradford 100 years ago ....