1938 Tube Stock

[cctransuk]

1 minute ago, woodenhead said:

Are we really arguing over specifics of 'sticky tape'?

 

Must be a very slow Saturday 😆

 

No - but I am sceptical about the reference up-thread to a renaming label for a destination board being self-adhesive vinyl and produced at Nationalisation.

 

It just struck me as anacronistic.

 

CJI.

[GoingUnderground]

2 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

No - but I am sceptical about the reference up-thread to a renaming label for a destination board being self-adhesive vinyl and produced at Nationalisation.

 

It just struck me as anacronistic.

 

CJI.

The destination plates made in 1938 for the '38 stock on the Northern Line included the "Northern Heights" "New Works" destinations of Bushey Heath, Elstree, and Alexandra Palace. These were never used, for obvious reasons, and LT had some sort of repainting process or overlay application with alternate destinations. These alternate destinations were "Mill Hill East", which was applied over "Elstree", I personally peeled the vinyl off my Elstree plate, and subsequently acquired another "Mill Hill East" plate where the raised letters of "Elstree" can be seen very clearly beneath the vinyl, and it is vinyl, not paint. "Bushey Heath" tended to have "London Bridge" applied over it, and "Strand" was applied over "Alexandra Palace".  The first overlays may not have been vinyl but paint, but the sort of handling that the plates got as evidenced by the fact that many of them are scored and gouged would suggest that it paint was originally used then it probably didn't last too long and was replaced with vinyl. That is most probably why the condition of the Ally Pally, Bushey Heath and Elstree sides of the plates when they come up for sale is always so good, they've spent the vast majority of their time hidden and kept safe beneath the vinyl overlay. Often they are better than the reverse.

 

For more information please see the short paper that the transport author and researcher the late Mike Horne prepared which you can access via this link. http://www.metadyne.co.uk/pdf_files/Destinations.pdf

 

Over the years I have acquired several unused vinyl destination overlays, the backing to which is Fablon in one case, Fasson Fascal in four others and blank on the remainder. I cannot say when they were produced or applied to the plates as they are all undated.. The lines concerned are the "East London", "Piccadilly", "Bakerloo", and "District.", which supports the view that it was LT standard practice when stock had to be moved from one line to another and there were no destination plates for the relevant Line available for the transferred stock.

 

I've included a photo of the vinyls that I have, all still with their backing paper intact, plus a Mill Hill East plate where the raised lettering of Elstree is very visible when it is viewed in the right light, and the raised edge of the vinyl can be felt quite easily where it is missing next to the holes where the chains that were used to make up the "books" of plates go.

 

[Jack Cregan]

8 minutes ago, GoingUnderground said:

The destination plates made in 1938 for the '38 stock on the Northern Line included the "Northern Heights" "New Works" destinations of Bushey Heath, Elstree, and Alexandra Palace. These were never used, for obvious reasons, and LT had some sort of repainting process or overlay application with alternate destinations. These alternate destinations were "Mill Hill East", which was applied over "Elstree", I personally peeled the vinyl off my Elstree plate, and subsequently acquired another "Mill Hill East" plate where the raised letters of "Elstree" can be seen very clearly beneath the vinyl, and it is vinyl, not paint. "Bushey Heath" tended to have "London Bridge" applied over it, and "Strand" was applied over "Alexandra Palace".  The first overlays may not have been vinyl but paint, but the sort of handling that the plates got as evidenced by the fact that many of them are scored and gouged would suggest that it paint was originally used then it probably didn't last too long and was replaced with vinyl. That is most probably why the condition of the Ally Pally, Bushey Heath and Elstree sides of the plates when they come up for sale is always so good, they've spent the vast majority of their time hidden and kept safe beneath the vinyl overlay. Often they are better than the reverse.

 

For more information please see the short paper that the transport author and researcher the late Mike Horne prepared which you can access via this link. http://www.metadyne.co.uk/pdf_files/Destinations.pdf

 

Over the years I have acquired several unused vinyl destination overlays, the backing to which is Fablon in one case, Fasson Fascal in four others and blank on the remainder. I cannot say when they were produced or applied to the plates as they are all undated.. The lines concerned are the "East London", "Piccadilly", "Bakerloo", and "District.", which supports the view that it was LT standard practice when stock had to be moved from one line to another and there were no destination plates for the relevant Line available for the transferred stock.

 

I've included a photo of the vinyls that I have, all still with their backing paper intact, plus a Mill Hill East plate where the raised lettering of Elstree is very visible when it is viewed in the right light, and the raised edge of the vinyl can be felt quite easily where it is missing next to the holes where the chains that were used to make up the "books" of plates go.

 

Fascinating! Any idea what year the New Cross Gate vinyl originates from?

Jack

[Wickham Green too]

5 hours ago, woodenhead said:

Are we really arguing over specifics of 'sticky tape'?

I thought we were arguing over the specifics of something black that is capable of being overprinted white with 'Watford LMR' rather than 'Watford LMS' .............. which doesn't sound like 'Scotch' Tape to me..

[GoingUnderground]

On 21/05/2022 at 21:46, Jack Cregan said:

Fascinating! Any idea what year the New Cross Gate vinyl originates from?

Jack

No idea at all.

 

For what it's worth, my own theory is that it could have been for the '38 Stock when that was used between 1974 and 1977 on the ELL. There is a picture on page 100 of Piers Connor's "The 1938 Tube Stock" of '38 Stock at New Cross Gate showing the "NEW + GATE" destination as shown on my sticker. It can't have been any later than that as A Stock had roller blinds not destination plates and they were the last 4 rail stock to run on the ELL before its conversion to 3 rail. Strangely the New + Gate was the one that I acquired most recently.

 

It is possible that it might be earlier than 1974 and predates the transfer of the '38 Stock to the line , but it gets complicated as the ELL branch generally got the leftovers after the needs of the Metropolitan main line and District had been met. In the early 1970s 2 trains of pure Q38 Stock ran on the ELL and being ex-District Line stock they might not have had Shoreditch, Whitechapel, New Cross and New Cross Gate destination plates and needed appropriate stickers, as following its acquisition by the Metropolitan Railway it remained operationally part of the Met line through to its transfer to the Overground Network and conversion to 3rd rail. So it's not unreasonable to think that Metropolitan O and P stock, converted to COP Stock, from the Hammersmith & City branch of the Met would have had the necessary plates ex-works as some Hammersmith trains did run through services via St Mary's curve to terminate at New Cross and New Cross Gate up to WW2. IIRC, the through services were stopped as traversing the 5 junctions on the route at between Paddington & Edgware Road; Baker St & Gt Portland Street; Liverpool St & Aldgate East - 2 junctions; and Aldgate East & Shadwell was operationally problematical.  

 

It is remotely possible thai it could be older still, if it was made for ex-District mixed Q Stock or F Stock which is known to have been used on the ELL, but that then takes us back to the argument over when "sticky back plastic" first existed and I don't want to go there.

Edited May 23, 2022 by GoingUnderground

[GoingUnderground]

Despite my earlier comment about the age of the overlays, the one for Oakwood is different to the others. There is no branding on the back, and the typeface isn't Johnson as used on all the others. Compare the W, O and D with the same letters on the Watford overlay, very different, and not in the way that a condensed version of Johnson would be, especially as there was no need to use a condensed version. Also it has a glossy finish whereas all the others have a matt finish. It seems to use a style of typeface described by Mike Horne in his paper as being used on the Piccadilly line in the late 1930s. He also mentions that the LER used a company that could print on a shiny linen backed paper material, and that this material was used extensively for destination "plates". Does my Oakwood overlay fit the bill? It sounds like it does as the glossy appearance and the typeface style matches Mike Horne's description. But it doee have a self-adhesive backing and looks too thin to be linen backed, but I'm no materials expert.

 

I was wondering when it could have been produced as Oakwood station was opened in 1933 as Enfield West. It was renamed Enfield West (Oakwood) in 1934, and changed again in September 1946 to Oakwood. There would have been a need for some sort of overlay for the Standard and '38 Stock then running on the Piccadilly as none of the DMs or Control Trailers would have had an enamelled destination plate bearing the name Oakwood. Could it date back that far, or was it produced for a stock transfer between another line and the Piccadilly, bearing in mind that the Piccadilly took  delivery of part of the order for '59 Stock in 1960. Whilst subsequent deliveries of '59 Stock were "diverted" to the Central Line, but at least some stock must have been transferred away in 1960 and the remainder of the Standard and '38 Stock was displaced a few years later by the return of the diverted '59 Tube Stock from the Central line once the Central started receiving the '62 Stock.  as '59 Stock had roller blind destinations there seems to be absolutely no need for an Oakwood overlay after the mid 1960s.

 

Any suggestions when it might have been produced and why?

[Gwiwer]

3 hours ago, GoingUnderground said:

In the early 1970s 2 trains of pure Q38 Stock ran on the ELL and being ex-District Line stock they might not have had Shoreditch, Whitechapel, New Cross and New Cross Gate destination plates and needed appropriate stickers

All Q-stock trains of all sub-classes which I ever saw on the ELL had plates not stickers.  Destinations required were New + Gate (always with the + not an X in the same way as Charing + was shown in earlier times), New Cross, Surrey Docks, Whitechapel and Shoreditch.  Units were not absolutely captive to the ELL as was the case with the later 1938 stock, but generally remained on that line unless required for overhaul.   

 

The 1938-stock units had warning stickers on the door windows to alert passengers to the large height difference between platforms and trains.  Other stations on the network where tube and surface stock both call feature the same with no apparent need to warn passengers but the ELL units were largely kept on that line for the duration and not interchanged with the Northern Line allocation.

 

One A60 stock unit, 5066-6066-6067-5067, was also captive to the ELL because it was fitted with a Davies & Metcalfe braking system.  It had to work alone and could not be coupled with any other unit in traffic.  It also helped that only a small number of drivers had to be trained on this system.  You knew when it came through because of the loud hissing sound the brakes made.  

[GoingUnderground]

I think you misunderstand what I mean buy a sticker. The stickers were never used on their own as far as I know. They were always stuck to the normal enamelled steel, brass end-capped destination plate, which was then slotted into its normal position. Unless you're up close and personal and catch it in the right light, you can't tell as the train pulls into the platform whether a destination plate has an overlay or not. Take my Mill Hill East plate. If it were not for the tears round the holes you would never know that it was the usual enamelled steel plate but with a vinyl sticker.  The glue was damned strong as I had quite a fight to get it off my Elstree plate. 

 

Let me demonstrate with this photo, below, which was taken in May 2008 at Quainton Road/Bucks Railway Centre of the cab of a DM car. Rather aoppropriately, the destination is Watford (LMR) and the chances are that it is a sticker stuck to the original Watford (LMS) plate. Note the lack of a 3rd plate of any description. It was only in the later years that boards painted black with the LT roundel were slotted in to fill in the gap.

 

 

Even if I enlarge the image until it is heavily pixellated you can't tell if it what you're seeing is an original metal destination plate or one with the S painted over with an R to turn LMS into LMR, or one with the vinyl stuck over the face of the plate.

 

 

The chances are that it is the stickered plate. But it is impossible to tell.

 

By 2010 they'd repainted the cab and changed the destination.

 

 

Pity about the cab interior. It shouldn't be grey at all, but Cerulean Blue as this final picture of the LT Museum's working 38 Stock 4 car set out and about between Harrow and Amersham in September 2012 shows.

 

 

The back wall is painted the same colour.

[GoingUnderground]

Will Bachmann now move on to the '59/'62 Stock with their next Underground model, or will they do the one route covered by '38 Stock that hasn't been done so far by EFE/Gilbow and now EFE/Bachmann? What route you ask is that? The Central Line between Epping and Ongar when a 3 car set of '38 Stock deputised between 1957 and 1960 for a 3 car set of the flat fronted '35 Experimental Stock which was being used on test train duties. Could be a nice little earner as it would give folks who wanted a prototypical 7 car set the 3 cars needed to make up the full rake. Just add your own line and destination plates.

 

Then there could be a special 5 car set to make up the 9 car trains that ran for a time on the Northern Line.

 

Of course they could move back to sub-Surface Stock and produce F, O/P/Q38 or R Stock using the motors from the S Stock. P Stock might be particularly useful as they would only need one body moulding as the unpowered trailer cars used the same body shells as the DM cars. There was no partition between what would have been the cab and the passenger compartment and seats were installed in that space backing on the the carriage end. They could also use that body for an R Stock set as many of the Q Stock Trailers were converted to become R Stock DMs but they would need a second body as the R Stock trailers had a different window arrangement to the O/PQ Stock. With a small tweak the same body could be used for O Stock.  

 

They do seem determined to produce much of the LT/LU stock and infrastructure having given us S Stock and the Art Deco Harrow-on-the-Hill/Kilburn/Dollis Hill platform buildings, Sudbury Town booking hall, stand alone and low relief versions, plus a low relief tube station entrance from the Morden branch of the Northern Line.  Their Art Deco Bus Depot also seems to owe much to LT.

[letterspider]

Hopefully there will be strong sales and Bachmann or someone such as Express Models may consider directional lighting.

 

[4railsman]

21 hours ago, GoingUnderground said:

They do seem determined to produce much of the LT/LU stock and infrastructure having given us S Stock and the Art Deco Harrow-on-the-Hill/Kilburn/Dollis Hill platform buildings, Sudbury Town booking hall, stand alone and low relief versions, plus a low relief tube station entrance from the Morden branch of the Northern Line.  Their Art Deco Bus Depot also seems to owe much to LT.

The real missing tube stock must surely be the original versions of Pre-1938 standard stock which ran over the whole LT system for many years. This covers a number of batches from 1921-1934  which provides opportunities to market a different batch each time rather than repeating the exact same models but with different numbered carriages and set number.

I think its most endearing feature is the upswept bogie frame at the driving ends which make it stand out against all the later bland designs. It would fit very nicely with their art-deco range of tube buildings.

[SRman]

37 minutes ago, 4railsman said:

The real missing tube stock must surely be the original versions of Pre-1938 standard stock which ran over the whole LT system for many years. This covers a number of batches from 1921-1934  which provides opportunities to market a different batch each time rather than repeating the exact same models but with different numbered carriages and set number.

I think its most endearing feature is the upswept bogie frame at the driving ends which make it stand out against all the later bland designs. It would fit very nicely with their art-deco range of tube buildings.

The so-called Standard Stocks were anything but standard. Those different batches and years also came from several manufacturers, so there were a lot more detail differences than on the later stocks (1938 and 1959/62 types in particular). They could also be done in BR blue or blue and grey for the Isle of Wight.

Having said that, I wouldn't mind some ready to run Standard Stock myself, even though I have no memories of ever riding in them myself (my memories of tube stock are of the 1938 and 1959/62 types).

Edited May 25, 2022 by SRman

[4railsman]

54 minutes ago, SRman said:

The so-called Standard Stocks were anything but standard. Those different batches and years also came from several manufacturers, so there were a lot more detail differences than on the later stocks (1938 and 1959/62 types in particular). They could also be done in BR blue or blue and grey for the Isle of Wight.

Having said that, I wouldn't mind some ready to run Standard Stock myself, even though I have no memories of ever riding in them myself (my memories of tube stock are of the 1938 and 1959/62 types).

Yes, that's true, but with modern technology enabling tooling changes to be made today that were previously an uneconomic proposition, one can only hope that Bachman/EFE Rail or another of the new breed of manufacturers sees a marketing opportunity and is prepared to go all out for it!

 

The nearest we ever came to seeing a RTR standard stock motorised model was with Metromodels (John Polley) who was having it made in Sri Lanka. Unfortunately, part way through the manufacturing process, Sri Lanka suffered devastating floods which destroyed the etching facility of his manufacturer who then decided they were unable to replace the lost production facility. The models were being produced in brass and I had placed a pre-order which never materialised even though a few pre-production models survived and were brought back to UK for eventual finishing. I have since lost touch with John Polley and presume that Metromodels has stopped trading after an attempt to offer alternative LT tubestock using the early resin printing method.

 

My memories on the standard stock go right back to when I traveled to my secondary school from Hounslow West to Hounslow East on the Piccadilly Line for about four years in the late 1950's. Those were the times!!

Edited May 25, 2022 by 4railsman
correction

[PhilJ W]

50 minutes ago, 4railsman said:

Yes, that's true, but with modern technology enabling tooling changes to be made today that were previously an uneconomic proposition, one can only hope that Bachman/EFE Rail or another of the new breed of manufacturers sees a marketing opportunity and is prepared to go all out for it!

 

The nearest we ever came to seeing a RTR standard stock motorised model was with Metromodels (John Polley) who was having it made in Sri Lanka. Unfortunately, part way through the manufacturing process, Sri Lanka suffered devastating floods which destroyed the etching facility of his manufacturer who then decided they were unable to replace the lost production facility. The models were being produced in brass and I had placed a pre-order which never materialised even though a few pre-production models survived and were brought back to UK for eventual finishing. I have since lost touch with John Polley and presume that Metromodels has stopped trading after an attempt to offer alternative LT tubestock using the early resin printing method.

 

My memories on the standard stock go right back to when I traveled to my secondary school from Hounslow West to Hounslow East on the Piccadilly Line for about four years in the late 1950's. Those were the times!!

Metromodels are still going strong, their latest product is the D stock including the Vivarail rebuilds.

http://www.metromodels.net/

[PhilJ W]

When it comes to Underground R-T-R stock my suggestion would be 1) A stock both pre and post refurbishment. The A stock ran as four car units of two DM's and two trailers and they ran on the East London line in experimental liveries before the current Underground livery of blue skirt/red doors was adopted. 2) The 1960 Cravens DM's which also had a variety of liveries and modifications that could easily be accommodated in manufacture such as light clusters. The main modification was the sealing of the cab doors. 3) The Q38, O, P and R stock, plenty of livery variations there.

[Erixtar1992]

1 hour ago, 4railsman said:

Yes, that's true, but with modern technology enabling tooling changes to be made today that were previously an uneconomic proposition, one can only hope that Bachman/EFE Rail or another of the new breed of manufacturers sees a marketing opportunity and is prepared to go all out for it!

 

The nearest we ever came to seeing a RTR standard stock motorised model was with Metromodels (John Polley) who was having it made in Sri Lanka. Unfortunately, part way through the manufacturing process, Sri Lanka suffered devastating floods which destroyed the etching facility of his manufacturer who then decided they were unable to replace the lost production facility. The models were being produced in brass and I had placed a pre-order which never materialised even though a few pre-production models survived and were brought back to UK for eventual finishing. I have since lost touch with John Polley and presume that Metromodels has stopped trading after an attempt to offer alternative LT tubestock using the early resin printing method.

 

My memories on the standard stock go right back to when I traveled to my secondary school from Hounslow West to Hounslow East on the Piccadilly Line for about four years in the late 1950's. Those were the times!!

John is a good friend of mine, Metromodels is still ticking along although the core of it was motorising old EFE models which will now have died down a lot.

 

John has the only standard stock cars that were produced in his collection, im sure he wont mind me sharing a couple photos.

 

they do look very smart so its a shame with the factory issues, it would have deffo been a level above the 92/95 stock that were done detail wise.

[Gwiwer]

5 hours ago, SRman said:

The so-called Standard Stocks were anything but standard.

Absolutely.  Not only built by different manufacturers over a period of some years but to totally different designs including different overall lengths.  Even tool slides have their limitations.  We are talking different ends, sides, roofs and those with / without a central door pillar between the double-leaves.  

 

It was said among some Isle of Wight staff that of even the small number they got (in comparison with the total fleet, that is, because what's there now is a very much smaller number again) no two cars were the same.  

 

If memory serves me well there were built variously by UCC Feltham, Metropolital Carraige & Wagon, Cammell-Laird, Metro-Cammell, Gloucester RC&W, Birmingham RC&W and even one car by Leeds Forge:-

Driving Motor (short) built 1923 - 30 .  Swing-door at the guard's position.

Driving Motor (long) built 1931 or 1934. Powered sliding door at the guard's position.

Control Trailer built 1923 - 30.

Trailer built 1923 - 30 

Trailer built 1931 or 1934

Many DM cars had the jumper receptacle box at the outer end removed and could only be formed in the middle of trains.

Some CT cares were converted to run as trailers with driving equipment removed.

Some trailers were converted to run with 1935 and 1938 stock which didn't affect the appearance other than for 70518 and 70545 which were rebuilt to aid loading on the Bakerloo Line to also have end doors (which the rest of the trailers never had).

 

1923 cars had squared air vents in the clerestory

Later cars had large or small triangular air vents according to build and builder

 

1923 and 1927 cars originally had central door pillars but some were removed over their lives; some of these survived on the IoW until 1990.  

 

Then we can move onto bogie differences and the various internal differences including seating arrangements ...... 

 

5 hours ago, SRman said:

I have no memories of ever riding in them myself

Only once that I can recall on the LT network but many rides on the IoW line where they bounced ferociously over the lightly-ballasted track when at speed.  At least they had deeply-upholstered seat cushions to compensate unlike so many trains today.  

[4railsman]

3 hours ago, Erixtar1992 said:

John is a good friend of mine, Metromodels is still ticking along although the core of it was motorising old EFE models which will now have died down a lot.

 

John has the only standard stock cars that were produced in his collection, im sure he wont mind me sharing a couple photos.

 

they do look very smart so its a shame with the factory issues, it would have deffo been a level above the 92/95 stock that were done detail wise.

 

Thanks for uploading the photos and info. Are these models actually made in brass or are they a resin print job?

 

The last I heard from John was the models he brought back from Sri Lanka were not up to the standard he expected and were also unpainted. He said he planned to get them finished in UK and would get back to me, but alas, nothing further was heard even after a bit of prodding from me over the years!. In the end I just gave up and contented myself with getting the new motorised EFE Rail 38-stock (E99939 and E99940).

 

The last time I met John was at the LT Museum Depot where he was exhibiting and where I was able to see the quality of his latest resin prints, which for me, lacked the quality of paint finish I was looking for and so never placed any further orders.

[4railsman]

16 minutes ago, Gwiwer said:

Only once that I can recall on the LT network but many rides on the IoW line where they bounced ferociously over the lightly-ballasted track when at speed.  At least they had deeply-upholstered seat cushions to compensate unlike so many trains today.  

My schoolday trips were only a short ride of 2-stations but I occasionally was able to travel to Central London on my own, mainly to Leicester Square. Hounslow West at that time was a three track terminus which also had District Line stock running, certainly at Peak Times.

 

At this time, to get to London Airport (now renamed Heathrow) you exited Hounslow West and took a No. 91 bus from opposite the station. Subsequently, when the line was extended, the terminus platforms were demolished and a tube-size tunnel built with new Underground Platforms, to take tube stock forward to Heathrow (in two stages). At that time, the District sub-surface stock was withdrawn from the Westbound Piccadilly Line. I never did understand why they decided to limit the tunnel size so only tubestock could be used, as it would seem much better to have full sub-surface stock running to Heathrow in order to cater for the large amounts of luggage that people take on holiday.

[Gwiwer]

6 hours ago, 4railsman said:

I never did understand why they decided to limit the tunnel size so only tubestock could be used

In a word - capacity.  

 

The District Line already had eastern branches to Ealing, Richmond and Wimbledon.  The Hounslow service (which was ultimately taken over by the Piccadilly Line having been Metropolitan District Railway from the outset) was a fourth.  This severely restricted the ability to run more trains when traffic grew through the 1930s and again in the 1950s.  The limiting factor was the complex junctions either side of Earls Court plus line signalling throughout.  The transition from District to Piccadilly Line service to Hounslow West took many years with, as you say, the District operating a peak-hours service until 09/10/1964.  Piccadilly Line trains commenced as early as 13/03/1933 so it took 31 years to transition!  

 

The Piccadilly Line had only one significant conflicting junction - that at Acton Town which also involved the District Line - but was able to provide many more trains to Hounslow than the District Line could.  Extensive grade-separation as part of the 1935-40 New Works Programme meant District and Piccadilly Line trains could run entirely separately through Acton Town when required but could also use what amounted to each other's tracks when operationally expedient.  A situation which remains true today.  

 

In 1975 the Piccadilly Line was extended to Hatton Cross and in 1977 to what was then called Heathrow Central and has since been known as Heathrow Terminals 1,2,3 and currently Heathrow Terminals 2 & 3.  

 

You mention the 91 bus.  From 23/08/1969 LT introduced the A1 airport express from the forecourt of Hounslow West station non-stop to the airport central bus station.  This ran until 16/12/1977 when the Piccadilly Line opened.  That obviated the need to cross the busy Bath Road and provided a dedicated link for airport users some of whom were airline passengers but mostly were staff.  Meeters & greeters plus aircraft spotters made up a small proportion.  In those days the airport was much less busy than it is today with far fewer long-haul flights operated.  Most traffic was domestic or European.  Other buses have at times provided the Hounslow West - Heathrow Central link of which the 81B was perhaps the best known.  This was introduced on 09/05/1954 as a summer weekends-only operation because the new airport was thought to be a visitor attraction, ceasing on 16/10/1954 but returned daily all year on 13/04/1955 running until  25/09/1970.   By that time the A1 was established and as the 81B duplicated other routes it was no longer required.  

[PhilJ W]

I used to visit some of the LT Museum Acton Depot open days. It was convenient for me to swap from the District to the Piccadilly at Barons Court rather than Earls Court. Just had to make sure I caught the right District train at Barking.

[Gwiwer]

35 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

It was convenient for me to swap from the District to the Piccadilly at Barons Court rather than Earls Court

Baron's Court is the easiest.  Across the platforms.  No steps other than into / out of trains.  We have used that ourselves numerous times in transit between Victoria and Heathrow or vice versa.  

[andyman7]

It's all academic now anyway now that Crossrail/the 'Elizabeth' line is coming on stream

[Erixtar1992]

On 25/05/2022 at 14:20, 4railsman said:

 

Thanks for uploading the photos and info. Are these models actually made in brass or are they a resin print job?

 

The last I heard from John was the models he brought back from Sri Lanka were not up to the standard he expected and were also unpainted. He said he planned to get them finished in UK and would get back to me, but alas, nothing further was heard even after a bit of prodding from me over the years!. In the end I just gave up and contented myself with getting the new motorised EFE Rail 38-stock (E99939 and E99940).

 

The last time I met John was at the LT Museum Depot where he was exhibiting and where I was able to see the quality of his latest resin prints, which for me, lacked the quality of paint finish I was looking for and so never placed any further orders.

Yes mate they are full brass. I think they are very smart. Likely would have sold well.

 

yes the earlier 3d prints are quite grainy, the 73 and 09 stock had this issue.  The newer stuff thats done through Imaterialise is better.

 

With some elbow grease they can turn out with a decent finish though, but youll always have layer lines to battle with somewhere or other.

 

the more time you spend the better the end result i guess!
 

[GoingUnderground]

Those of you wanting Standard Stock have over looked one small matter. How do you motorise them? You can't use the '38 Stock DM chassis in the DM as the larger diameter wheels at the cab end would require different gearing to the smaller diameter ones at the trailing end, not to mention a redesign of the chassis for the "upkick" below the control compartment. So it wouldn't be a straight lift from '38 Stock where all 4 axles on a DM are driven from a centrally mounted motor. Not an insurmountable problem, but an extra expense. One solution would be to motorise the trailer cars instead.

 

Also, as others have pointed out, Standard Stock was a real dogs breakfast, with each build being slightly different to the earlier one even when from the same builder.

 

And the roof clerestory overhang would make for an interesting moulding tool challenge. Even the ventilation scoops on the roof varied between builds.

 

The A, '38 and '59/62 Stock were relatively simple mouldings, and that is the sort of moulding that I'd expect Bachmann to look for if they are going to continue with more models as Underground rolling stock is somewhat of a niche product as it only runs in the London area, with the odd escapee to the IoW. I've seen folks on here dismiss the 1950s Triang SR EMU stock as "niche" because it only ran in the South East.

 

That's why my money would be on O/P/Q38 with their flared bodies where they would only need a single body shell for an entire 7 car train that could have run alongside '38 Stock between Uxbridge and Rayners Lane (Met & Piccadilly), Wembley Park and Finchley Road (Met and Bakerloo), and Ealing Common and Barons Court (District and Piccadilly).

 

Of course, they might surprise us all with a BR Class 501 which wouldn't be such an odd choice if you think about it. The only model to date was the Dublo one that ceased production back in 1964 when Meccano failed and was bought by Lines Bros/Triang. It would go nicely with Bakerloo '38 Stock (Watford LMS/R to Queens Park), or District O/P stock (Gunnersbury to Richmond). But a 501 is arguably even more niche than Underground stock running as it did between Euston & Watford (and Croxley), and Broad Street & Richmond. And yes I do know that there were services between Watford and Broad Street, I used it on occasions between 1979 and 1982 when  I changed jobs and the new office was close to Broad Street. How I hated those window bars on the 501s, made you feel like you were in prison.)