Handbuilding 009 trackwork

[BetweenTheTunnels]

Hi all,

I have, what I suspect, may well be a familiar story recently.  Having acquired one of the superb Bachmann Double-Fairlie locomotives - purely to go in the display cabinet, as the Ffestiniog is a line I've always had an affinity to, I now seem to have acquired a Baldwin to go with it.  As both are DCC Sound fitted, im thinking a small narrow gauge shunting layout would be quite nice and achivable.  Nothing that will be prototypical, but just nice to run some trains on.

 

However, although Peco's main line and siding point work are not particularly expensive (£13/£11 respectively) by the time you've done a run-round loop, a couple of points in hidden sidings and a couple of sidings on the layout, Im getting up to the £130 range, which is not at an option at this time of year.  Therefore Im thinking of using templates from Templot to build my own trackwork.  A friend of mine who is a 2mm Finescale modeller, has offered me some rail - Code 55 I think.

 

But it raised a few questions:

a) As 009 is N gauge spacing, can I use N gauge track gauges without any problems?

b) Does anyone know what size pointwork I should select in Templot for narrow gauge lines, Im guessing something around A5/A6 is similar to the Peco 12" radius siding points, and im guessing something like A8 for a Peco mainline style point?  I appreciate there arent 'precise' matches as it is different geometry, im just looking to get something that would look similar/right.

c) Can anyone suggest what the sleeper spacing should be?  Im proposing to use soldered trackwork onto copper clad sleepers - again a friend has offered me a bag as it wont need too many, and I suspect an N gauge main line sleeper will be roughly similar to a 4mm narrow gauge one in 009.

d) I am hoping I can move away from peco rail joiners, but do people put anything 'in between' rail lengths to ensure electrical separation without any rail creep or expansion?

 

Any help/assistance/advice would be appreciated. I think there is a setting in Templot to specify the sleeper spacing, but im only just finding me feet with the software, so dont really want to go messing around too much with settings.

 

Richie

 

[ikcdab]

I have exactly the same issue! 

If you haven't built 009 before, then beware of copying N gauge. The only similarity is the track gauge. As far as everything else is concerned, the similarities are with 00.

I guess in the past narrow gauge railways all did pretty much their own thing. But today it seems that British narrow gauge railways generally use standard gauge sleepers cut in half. So N gauge sleepers will be far too small.

The spacing, again, will reflect standard gauge practice. I'm just looking at Boyd's Talyllyn Railway and he shows sleepers at roughly 2' 6" spacing.

Track gauges are fitted to the rail section, so if you are using code 55 rail, then you need a code 55 9mm track gauge. So I guess a N gauge or 2FS gauge will do. Bear in mind that check rails will be nearer 00.

Wrt the code 55 rail, is this deep enough to accommodate the flanges on the 009 locos? I suspect that 009 locos have deeper flanges than N gauge ones.

The great thing about templot is that you can adjust the turnout vee angle and switch length to suit the location. I would think that your A6 and A8 would be fine. If you want something that looks "right", then don't try and copy peco geometry! It wont work. 

In templot, you can set up a custom track gauge with whatever sleeper spacings etc you want very easily. It's under the track gauge selection dialogue.

Really good to avoid "traditional" streamline FB peco rail joiners. On my 00 layout I do use their bullhead joiners which are very good. There must be something similar in 009. It's good to wire in easy separate piece of rail, I dont put anything between the lengths where I need section breaks and have not had any problems.

My own templot 009 design is in progress, so we are both on the same path!

Ian C

Edited December 11, 2021 by ikcdab

[martin_wynne]

Hi Richie,

 

Don't start with N gauge. A common mistake.

 

009 models are 4mm/ft scale, so start with 4mm/ft scale track and modify the gauge, timber sizes, etc.

 

There are some ready-to-use Templot narrow-gauge templates which you can download from:

 

 https://85a.uk/templot/archive/topics/topic_28.php#p118

 

(p.s. in Firefox you will gets a security warning which you can safely ignore.)

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[BetweenTheTunnels]

2 hours ago, ikcdab said:

I have exactly the same issue! 

If you haven't built 009 before, then beware of copying N gauge. The only similarity is the track gauge. As far as everything else is concerned, the similarities are with 00.

 

The spacing, again, will reflect standard gauge practice. I'm just looking at Boyd's Talyllyn Railway and he shows sleepers at roughly 2' 6" spacing.

 

My own templot 009 design is in progress, so we are both on the same path!

Ian C

Hi Ian,

Good to know I am not alone! Thanks, I hadn’t thought about the N gauge/4mm issue, useful note. I think I may need to make a track gauge up, as looking at the 2mm Association website, I think the rail my friend has given me is Code 40, so definitely too small for 009 flanges. Although the models do seem to run ok on N gauge metre lengths, but obviously no curves or check rails involved there.

 

I am thinking I may need to get some Code 55 rail. Copper clad lengths seem hard to come by, ive seen comments about single sided copper clad ‘bowing’ after a time and use double sided, but most that I can see is now single.  I am wondering whether cutting my own ply sleepers may be the way, if I can find some suitable chairs, but presumably they would need to be Code 55 specific chairs?

 

Thanks for the other info, I look forward to seeing your design!

 

2 hours ago, martin_wynne said:

Don't start with N gauge. A common mistake.

 

There are some ready-to-use Templot narrow-gauge templates which you can download from:

 https://85a.uk/templot/archive/topics/topic_28.php#p118

Hi Martin,

Thanks for the reply. Glad you said it was a common mistake! Thank you also for the link to your templates. I’ll download those and have a go. The layout will be set 1930s so I presume it would be bullhead rail?

 

Richie

[mcowgill]

9 hours ago, Rochdale Road said:

The layout will be set 1930s so I presume it would be bullhead rail?

 

 

Richie,

 

Again, don't think standard gauge norms apply to narrow gauge.

 

Almost every narrow gauge line used flatbottom from the start, it's much older than most people think, first used in for standard gauge in the 1830s in the UK with the advantage for light lines that it can be spiked in place rather than needing chairs.   I can't off the top of my head think of any British lines that used bullhead rail, however for modelling purposes you can use bullhead to represent the Ffestiniog in pre-restoration days, it used chaired double-headed rail (unlike bullhead which is asymmetric with a smaller foot)  which could theoretically be turned over to swap the running surface and get more life out the rail, in practice the lower surface was uneven due to being in contact with the chairs.  You wouldn't notice the difference between bullhead and double-headed at 4mm scale

 

Then as this is narow gauge you need to allow for the wild and wacky...   The Talyllyn had flatbottom rail spiked to intermediate sleepers but used a chair and wooden key at joints in place of fishplates.  Tom Rolt's Railway Adventure tells of missing keys so when a loco ran onto end of a rail the crew watched the other end of the rail rise up as the train progressed up the valley!

 

Martin

 

 

Edited December 12, 2021 by mcowgill

[Jeremy Cumberland]

 

48 minutes ago, mcowgill said:

 I can't off the top of my head think of any British lines that used bullhead rail

The Ffestiniog did. The earliest rail was wrought iron rolled fishbelly, then wrought iron T, then wrought iron double head, steel double head and finally steel bullhead. Flat bottom was only used in the preservation era.

 

Other narrow gauge railways in North Wales also used chaired track. The Nantlle Raiway used rolled fishbelly (I wonder if it was ever replaced), Dinorwic Quarry used double head (as did the Padarn Railway, it seems) and Penrhyn used bullhead.

 

Flat bottom only really came into its own after steel displaced wrought iron in the 1860s (in wrought iron, the foot needs to be quite thick so it doesn't laminate, but this adds nothing to strength), and it is only really railways that were built after this time that used flat bottom, in Britain at any rate (in North America it wasn't so easy to get chairs cast, which tipped the balance towards rails that didn't need them). Existing railways built with chaired track mostly continued using it.

Edited December 12, 2021 by Jeremy C

[njee20]

NGtrains do Micro Engineering code 55 rail. It’s got a noticeably coarser head than Peco code 55 (which is actually 0.083” and partially buried in the sleepers), so that would probably be a good c

[DavidLong]

Although I can't vouch for the standards used on recent 009 products it is the case that all current N gauge productions will run quite happily on Code 40 rail. The flange depth of 0.5mm is common to current N and 2FS, it is only the tread width that is wider in N. The FinetraX range of N gauge trackwork uses all Code 40 rail. The 55 thou visible height used by Peco is to allow the use of older N gauge products but is largely unnecessary these days. As the Fairlie and Baldwin are produced by Bachmann who also make the Graham Farish range there is a fair chance that the wheel standards are similar. Many 009 modellers use Farish mechanisms such as the 08 or 03/04 without modification.

This leads me to suggest that any N gauge track gauges will be absolutely fine when building the track.

Hope this helps.

 

David

[ikcdab]

13 hours ago, Rochdale Road said:

am thinking I may need to get some Code 55 rail. Copper clad lengths seem hard to come by, ive seen comments about single sided copper clad ‘bowing’ after a time and use double sided, but most that I can see is now single.  I am wondering whether cutting my own ply sleepers may be the way, if I can find some suitable chairs, but presumably they would need to be Code 55 specific chairs?

I've only Ever used single sided copperclad and never had any trouble at all. I buy all mine from Marcway. Ply sleepers do look much nicer, in which case I would be looking up c&l for the plastic chairs to suit.

I normally buy a small sheet if 0.8mm ply about a foot square. I then stain the whole sheet, then cut into strips with a Stanley knife, steel edge and caliper gauge. Then you can have whatever width sleepers you want. 

Ian

[Jeff Smith]

I have a lot of respect for Micro Engineering track.  I used the code 70 On30 track and turnouts; quite delicate until stuck down but nicely made.  I assume the HOn3 at 9mm would look good for flat bottom spiked track.

[Stephen Freeman]

As has been said, Ffestiniog used bullhead, as your locos ran/run there, perhaps you should choose Bullhead but I think you might need to use code 40 as I don't know of any chairs for 55. Wayne Kinneys plug in ones spring to mind.

[BetweenTheTunnels]

11 hours ago, mcowgill said:

Richie,

Almost every narrow gauge line used flatbottom from the start, it's much older than most people think, first used in for standard gauge in the 1830s in the UK with the advantage for light lines that it can be spiked in place rather than needing chairs.  

Martin

 

Martin,

Thanks I must admit, I was 'assuming' (always a mistake!) that Flat bottom hadnt come into use until the 1940s/50s. I had no idea it was around over a century earlier.  Thanks for correcting me.  Looking at the rail that my friend has given me its actually some Peco Code 60 flat bottom rail, so I think it would represent a heavier FB narrow gauge rail quite well.  As it has not cost me anything, i'll see what rail chairs i can find.  I know there is a fascinating topic going on over on Martin Wynne's Templot forum about 3D printing, but I feel it is way beyond me, even using a third-party printing service, as I dont have a 3D printer.  But it does show what is becoming possible.

 

6 hours ago, DavidLong said:

As the Fairlie and Baldwin are produced by Bachmann who also make the Graham Farish range there is a fair chance that the wheel standards are similar. Many 009 modellers use Farish mechanisms such as the 08 or 03/04 without modification. This leads me to suggest that any N gauge track gauges will be absolutely fine when building the track.

David

 

David,

Thanks, that piece of information is appreciated and yes I would think your conclusions are logical, so i'll see what I can acquire or make for a gauge!

 

6 hours ago, ikcdab said:

I've only Ever used single sided copperclad and never had any trouble at all. I buy all mine from Marcway. Ply sleepers do look much nicer, in which case I would be looking up c&l for the plastic chairs to suit.

I normally buy a small sheet if 0.8mm ply about a foot square. I then stain the whole sheet, then cut into strips with a Stanley knife, steel edge and caliper gauge. Then you can have whatever width sleepers you want. 

Ian

 

Ian,

Thanks for that.  I've read a lot of information about C&L not being quick on delivery on other threads, which makes me a bit nervous about ordering. I'll probably try ringing and see what kind of response i get.  I've only just had time to start thinking about all this, but have just over two weeks off over Christmas & New Year, so it is an ideal time to try and do something if i can.

 

Thanks everyone for your input, much appreciated.

 

Richie

[Jeff Smith]

Richie, I'm puzzled as to what chairs you would be looking for.  FB rail is either spiked with the rail directly on the sleepers or onto a baseplate which would hardly show.  I don't know if any narrow gauge FB rail would use the mainline Pandrol type clips.

[Stephen Freeman]

On 13/12/2021 at 01:19, Jeff Smith said:

Richie, I'm puzzled as to what chairs you would be looking for.  FB rail is either spiked with the rail directly on the sleepers or onto a baseplate which would hardly show.  I don't know if any narrow gauge FB rail would use the mainline Pandrol type clips.

In 7mm scale you can get baseplates for code 82 but I am not aware of anything smaller being available, I doubt it would show anyway but for those that really must have them I would think that Palatine Models (Ralph Robertson) would be able to do a special reduction in scale but I doubt it would be cheap. Alternatively you could get them etched yourself.

[Robertm3110]

Hi, could I just piggy back on this thread…..Like others I too have seen this recent 009 stuff and am thinking about a small layout.  I have the same questions re track - I use C & L for my 0 gauge layout but they dont do 009 - so  will probably settle for Peco and bury it in ballast and muck, bonding the joints with fine wire as fishplates.  But my question is more around DCC.  Fitting chips and sound in Heljan 0 gauge I can do all day long, but what are the possibilities with 009.  I note that the Fairlie is available as DCC so it can be done, but what about other models. Are they available as DCC or can they be retro fitted.  Are they available as plug and play or do you need to hard wire them.  Presumably there are some tiny sugar cube speakers out there….with 0 gauge I go for biggest I can get in!  Any thoughts appreciated, DCC is the preferred route, it makes the wiring so much easier.  

[hayfield]

Richie

 

Lots of good information here, the first thing is when building track is does it look right ?

 

I tried building some 0-16.5 track using code 75 rail and chairs, with  7mm scale 10" sleepers.  It looked very wrong. Code 100 rail looks far better

 

With 009 as said its a cross between 4mm scale and N gauge wheels, forget 2mm finescale. I looked at what Peco sell and they use code 80 flatbottom rail, C&L do sell code 82 flat bottom, I would think unless you are building very light weight narrow gauge code 60 is a bit fine

 

As has been said using 4 mm plastic or ply timbers and perhaps C&L ST base plates with code 80 rail or Peco sell track spikes  https://peco-uk.com/products/rail-spikes though these may look a bit over scale. Bambi staples cut down may be better

 

Its all about getting the correct look, something the late Alan Downes was very good at

[roythebus1]

The metre gauge Tramway Touristique d'Aisne in Belgium uses wooden sleepers with a tapered cut-out in each sleeper to tilt the rails inwards. I'd not come across this form of sleeper before.

 

I doubt that you'd need baseplates, as others have said flat bottom is spiked to sleepers.

[Julia]

 

My layout is H0e (so oo9, but with a German accent). I build all my track myself. I use N gauge gauges, and code 55 track. I use pcb sleepers, I can measure them when I next go near the track parts box if you'd like. 

 

I use the templates from FREMO. They have an H0e handbook with templates in the back. It's very useful. 

 

I am not sure making track is a way to save money, but it is very therapeutic. 

 

J