DCC Concepts ESP - Wireless point and layout control.

[Ron Ron Ron]

This has already been mentioned in a couple of threads, in various sections of the forum.

BRM have also mentioned its arrival.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[WIMorrison]

Interesting and I am sure that some people will purchase it, however no mention of the price and looking at the website you will need very deep pockets

 

[njee20]

I can’t understand the use for it. It’s so expensive, that I can only really see a use case for something like a huge basement layout which requires a single decoder miles from anything else. Otherwise you need clusters of the boards all over the layout. 

 

if you have short runs between accessory decoders then why would you bother?

 

I’d get it more if they did a (say) 12-output transmitter, but you’ll just end up wiring in loads of the transmitters, which doesn’t really seem materially easier than connecting items to a bus. 

Edited December 27, 2021 by njee20

[Andymsa]

The claim that it will work with any dcc system is not quite accurate, let me explain more. Track occupancy is the issue, depending how the occupancy system used outputs the track occupancy state. I know for certain it won’t work with a digitrax system as it’s a closed system this was confirmed by Dcc concepts tech support. For occupancy to work with the ESP system the feedback module needs to output a separate switch state, this was what I was told by the tech guys at dcc concepts.

Edited December 27, 2021 by Andymsa

[two tone green]

Still does not remove local wiring under the board which is still there on a conventional DCC layout. 
 

The smart move would be to have point motors etc with the transmitter built in like the cobalt IP. Then it’s just a power feed. 
 

Not convinced of its use yet and the cost, WoW.
 

The use on a new DC layout, how many people are building these, reducing amounts I suspect so the market is small. 
 

The use on a new DCC layout, cost first against using it I would have thought. It’s expensive enough to get going and if you want to go high end DCC, big layout, I suspect this new concept won’t be on many shopping lists as it really does not remove much in the wiring department if some thought is put into design under the board. 
 

Will watch its progress but not convinced of its use yet and DCC is already evolving. 

[WIMorrison]

25 minutes ago, Andymsa said:

The claim that it will work with any dcc system is not quite accurate, let me explain more. Track occupancy is the issue, depending how the occupancy system used outputs the track occupancy state. I know for certain it won’t work with a digitrax system as it’s a closed system this was confirmed by Dcc concepts tech support. For occupancy to work with the ESP system the feedback module needs to output a separate switch state, this was what I was told by the tech guys at dcc concepts.

 

Andy

 

To clarify, I think that they are saying this product will work with the DCC Concepts Legacy Feedbacks which is what they sell. I don't think it will work with Loconet, Xpressnet, CANbus, BiDiB or S88(n) feedbacks as used by TC, iTrain, JMRI, etc without additional hardware and wiring.

 

It should work with any DCC system that is not using feedbacks such as I describe.

[two tone green]

13 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

 

Andy

 

To clarify, I think that they are saying this product will work with the DCC Concepts Legacy Feedbacks which is what they sell. I don't think it will work with Loconet, Xpressnet, CANbus, BiDiB or S88(n) feedbacks as used by TC, iTrain, JMRI, etc without additional hardware and wiring.

 

It should work with any DCC system that is not using feedbacks such as I describe.

That’s a good point about using software to control the layout. Can it be done by using what interface ?

 

Not sure it can. 

[WIMorrison]

I don't know definitively whether it will work with automation programs however from the description given in the video and the descriptions on the DCC Concepts website you would need to add additional hardware to make the DCC Concepts Legacy feedbacks work with one of the common feedback busses - and of course add wiring to enable the reporting which this claims to be removing 

 

My thoughts would be that you would need to use something like a DR4088 LN Opto to get LocoNet feedback from the Legacy Feedback for the automation program - and the wiring would run in parallel to the ESP system 

[Andymsa]

I have been trying to find out info on what radio frequencies are used without success.  my initial thoughts are does it use part of the 2.4 ghz range and acts like a mesh network. As the 2.4 band is quite crowded already with  many Devices I am wondering how robust the comms are.

Edited December 27, 2021 by Andymsa

[BroadLeaves]

Looking at the antennae on the TX and RX PCBs, I'm guessing they're in the 433MHz band.

[mezzoman253]

51 minutes ago, BroadLeaves said:

Looking at the antennae on the TX and RX PCBs, I'm guessing they're in the 433MHz band.

I hope not, as the 433.92Mhz spot frequency falls within the 70 centimetre amateur radio band and is NOT protected, by legislation, from interference by other users.

 

It is a licence exempt spot allocation and as such has to compete with other signals such and car key fobs, home weather stations, and the internet of things.

 

It could all end in tears.

 

Rob

Edited December 27, 2021 by mezzoman253

[Ron Ron Ron]

The track occupancy aspect is only one application for this system.

The main use for this kit is point and route control, i.e. control panels without the wiring.

 

However, their own Alpha and Mimic products do the layout control job very well, without the need for making it wireless.

Wireless doesn't have much, if any, advantage over the very simple, single DCC connection to the cab bus (in the case of Alpha) or track bus (Mimic).

The video demonstrates this very well.

 

For those with software packages, such as iTrain, TC, JMRI etc, .....do you really need reminding that this product almost certainly isn't aimed at you?

It's also worth remembering that computer control, despite having increased in popularity, still represents a tiny corner of the hobby and a small fraction of DCC users, many of whom would be attracted to some of the new innovations being made available these days, but have no intention of ever using a software package.

 

 

.

Edited December 27, 2021 by Ron Ron Ron

[Andymsa]

1 hour ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

The track occupancy aspect is only one application for this system.

The main use for this kit is point and route control, i.e. control panels without the wiring.

 

However, their own Alpha and Mimic products do the layout control job very well, without the need for making it wireless.

Wireless doesn't have much, if any, advantage over the very simple, single DCC connection to the cab bus (in the case of Alpha) or track bus (Mimic).

The video demonstrates this very well.

 

For those with software packages, such as iTrain, TC, JMRI etc, .....do you really need reminding that this product almost certainly isn't aimed at you?

It's also worth remembering that computer control, despite having increased in popularity, still represents a tiny corner of the hobby and a small fraction of DCC users, many of whom would be attracted to some of the new innovations being made available these days, but have no intention of ever using a software package.

 

 

.

I’m sorry but I find your comments in the last paragraph are somewhat insulting, I don’t think users of computer software need reminding of who the product is aimed at. But there are exceptions to the rule, the McKinley railway being one where they use computer software in conjunction with mimic panels. I am going to build a local panel myself for visitors to use even although I use computer software, and the product looked interesting from this aspect for me as it was stated would work with any system, so I don’t think because a user has a computer to run aspects of there layout would exclude such a product from use on such a layout. But even if a software control was not going to be implemented at the current time but in the future and that user invested in ESP and purchased there feedback detectors, that would be a expensive mistake. So it is a fair question to raise computer software being used with ESP

 

What is not made clear is how existing occupancy detectors from third parties would feed into the ESP system, bearing in mind the statement “it will work with any system” was made and occupancy was demonstrated as part of the system does make it relevant and should not be discounted. So I made enquires and for me it’s not compatible with Digitrax occupancy detectors but I’m lucky there are other alternatives with use with the digitrax system that I can use, that would only require a power cable and a loconet data cable to create the local panel. I can’t speak for other systems but I’m sure there might be something available along similar lines from LDT for other systems, because if my understanding is correct they may not be compatible occupancy wise either.

 

So this raises the point who the product is aimed at, because as you said there existing products do a very good job of layout control.
 

Edited December 28, 2021 by Andymsa

[WIMorrison]

10 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

....

 

For those with software packages, such as iTrain, TC, JMRI etc, .....do you really need reminding that this product almost certainly isn't aimed at you?

It's also worth remembering that computer control, despite having increased in popularity, still represents a tiny corner of the hobby and a small fraction of DCC users, many of whom would be attracted to some of the new innovations being made available these days, but have no intention of ever using a software package.

 

 

.

 

Whilst automation may not be large on your radar, it is large on many other people's radar and becoming more and more popular each week due to the affordability of components and software.

 

A function of this forum is to be a place where people come to seek advice - either overtly by asking a question, or just be scanning posts looking to gain information. It is therefore important that when a term 'feedback', especially when allied to 'occupancy' is used that people understand that the occupancy feedback being demonstrated in the video that you posted will probably not work with existing software automation packages and that the investment needed for the functionality shown will be lost if it is decided that more comprehensive feedback is required that provides, as examples, train names, loco IDs, etc on the display - something that many people are now using computer screens to provide - without using the automation aspects of the programs.

 

 

[KingEdwardII]

Based on the current pricing, it looks like a 3 output transmitter comes in at > £30 per unit, even in bulk buys.

 

So that's more than £10 for each output (e.g. 1 switch on a mimic panel). For even a moderately large layout, that makes my approach of a large touch screen and Raspberry Pi look really cheap by comparison.

 

Also, since the largest transmitter board has only 3 outputs, you would end up with a lot of these boards to accommodate. My current layout would need at least 10 of them. The system desperately needs a larger capacity transmitter board with a much lower cost per output (e.g. an 8 output board).

 

I suspect that it would be possible to build a more cost effective solution using Arduinos with Bluetooth, for example, if wireless is your goal.

 

Yours,  Mike.

[SamThomas]

It seems a very expensive system to move a lot of wires/connections from one place to another.

 

Couple of things I noticed was that prices were mentioned & the fact that you don't have to use a tablet or smartphone with the Z21 - you can use the Multimaus, WiFiMultimaus or virtually any other handsest/controller.

 

Still, IMHO it will appeal to those who like to overcomplicate matters.

[Michael Hodgson]

On 27/12/2021 at 12:35, WIMorrison said:

Interesting and I am sure that some people will purchase it, however no mention of the price and looking at the website you will need very deep pockets

 

He did give price details.  He said the demo control panel he was showing contained 4 transmitter boards and a receiver board, and the layout had a receiver board.  So a few pence shy of £210 for his panel plus another £50 on the layout.

 

I don't understand how the point position feedbacks were getting to his mimic panel unless there was also a similar number of transmitter boards on the layout.  However I got the impression from the speed of LED changes that it was merely repeating the position of his point switch rather than getting positive confirmation from the point that it had obeyed the command. 

 

I don't doubt this will achieve some sales, although perhaps not the volume the vendor hopes mainly because of price.  Not for me.  I will want a proper panel and an illuminated diagram in addition to going for software control, but there are much cheaper ways of adding that in due course, and whilst wireless is nice to have, I don't consider it important enough to justify much extra cost.  If I really wanted wireless there are cheaper approaches if you're prepared to get into electronics.

 

Who will fork out for it?  I have met quite a lot of modellers who seem to have an irrational fear of wiring.  The elimination of plugs and sockets will be attractive to those who have to assemble and dismantle their layouts frequently.  So it will probably suit some of the smaller portable exhibition layouts with only a few points, although those are quite simple to wire using conventional analogue control.

 

 

 

Edited December 29, 2021 by Michael Hodgson

[SamThomas]

Don't forget the cost (& time) building the panel.

 

Assuming the points on an existing layout is already DCC & you are fed up with the clunky way of controlling them via e.g. a Powercab or Multimaus you still have to build a panel so by the time you factor that in (depending on the size of the layout) you could very well be in the region of a Z21 & basic tablet. Not of course for those who prefer "real" switches, buttons on electric pencil.

Factors such as layout size of course come to mind but to me it will very limited appeal.