Advice concerning DCC Occupancy/Feedback module with hidden sidings

[ianLMS]

Good morning folks,

I have 6 hidden sidings and have tried different ways to detect when the loco's have reached the point they need to stop so they don't foul the adjoining tracks. I have tried Infra-red, reed switches and CCTV but none really work perfectly.

 

I have a z21 Start, wi-fi enabled, however I tend to use the red multimaus hand-controller and operate points via DCC Concepts ADS-8SX's and momentary switches on a mimic board (i like the old ways sometimes)

 

I am looking at the various feedback/block/occupancy detectors available, but am unsure which the best one would be for what I am looking for.

 

Points to consider;

1. There are 6 sidings, 3 for each direction hidden under a hillside

2.  I can access the tracks as the hillside is hinged so can isolate sections if required

3. I would like the ability for the detector to light up LED's on the mimic board when the loco is in the section

4. I do not want to fit reed switches/magnets (been there/done that) 

5. I don't use PC control or the tablet much but may want to in the future (i like the idea of automation, just not savvy or brave enough yet)

6. Price isn't too much of a consideration if its going to do the job I need it to.

7. I use predominantly Zimo decoders.

 

As always, any assistance or advise would be greatly appreciated.

 

Ian

[Nigelcliffe]

Lighting LEDs on a panel is probably the harder part of your requirements.   If you'd use a tablet, then you can skip that complexity given that the z21 supports tablet displays of track information. 

 

 

The "easy" hardware would be the Roco 16-channel occupancy detector for R-Bus.   With that, I'd arrange the wiring of the sidings so that each siding has two sections, each wired via one of the channels on the detector, the main part of the siding, and a shorter loco stopping area.  I'd then use the remaining four inputs on the detector to cover the turnouts in/out of storage, thus showing if something is on those turnouts (and their approach tracks where it would foul).       

 

Then, on the z21 tablet app, you can have those occupancy detectors light up to show the loco crossing the entry turnouts, then in the main siding, and then when it enters the stopping area (telling you to stop it). And would also light if it has gone into the turnout area at exit (indicating you have over-shot).   The stopping area needs to be long enough for you to react to a loco entering, and then tell it to stop. 

 

 

An alternative stopping method if all of your decoders support it, would be ABC braking.  (Lenz, Zimo, ESU support it, as do others).  With that, you can use six diodes as a "stop" instruction in your stopping areas.  You then require a switch/relay to release a loco from the stopping area.     There are pros and cons of this approach.   The major negative is that the loco is easily left "running" on a throttle, so if it is then released from the stop diodes, it will go back to its previous speed.   The advantage is accurate and automated stopping.  

 

 

 

- Nigel

 

[WIMorrison]

One addition to what Nigel suggests is that you will need to ensure that each and every wagon draws current to make it show as being detected. This current draw can be an LED (as in coach lighting), decoder (as in loco) or a resistive axle (as in resistance between wheels). Without this current draw you will not see any occupation.

[peach james]

10 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

One addition to what Nigel suggests is that you will need to ensure that each and every wagon draws current to make it show as being detected. This current draw can be an LED (as in coach lighting), decoder (as in loco) or a resistive axle (as in resistance between wheels). Without this current draw you will not see any occupation.

You need to have the tail of the train detected, and I would suggest some of the intermediate wagons/coaches...not necessity every wagon but enough that you know when the turnouts are free to change.  

James

[WIMorrison]

You do if you are putting various lengths of train in and there are multiple detectors.

 

having one only on first and last will work if you are using an automation program, such as iTrain as it can fill in logically between first and last, however if you are relying on just the detectors to show occupancy then you need every wagon done because there is nothing to work out occupancy between first and last.

[peach james]

With 2 detection sections per loop, you don't need to worry- sketch out the track plan :


                ______|_0__|__________0_______|____
-----0-----/--------|--0--|-------------0----------|-------\-----0----  (train enters here)

(with each 0 = a sensor block) and think it through- you don't need to know anything but the front and rear of the train for the software part.  Basically, you have the software driving the train until it hits the  short "stop" detect, and that's it...it should be able to be done by hand as well, with LED's providing the indication.  If the rear of the train is still on the turnout on the RHS, then drive the train forward until it clears- and if it fires the LHS detection, then you have gone too far.  I'm unsure how easy it will be to run as an automatic unless it is done with either RailCOM or Transponding (r) on the first block to identify the decoder ID required.  (ABC using Diodes would be easier, in some ways...).  

James

 

[WIMorrison]

There is no software part in this scenario ...

[Nigelcliffe]

I'd made a couple of working assumptions which don't need wagon/coach resistors.  

 

1 - all trains will fit in the loops once a loco is inside the "loco stop zone". 

2 - trains are reliable and couplings don't fail.   

 

James' sketch drawing shows the arrangement I had in mind,  though there would be three loops, not two, and thus use up 8 detectors for the three loops in that direction.   Though I had assumed Tablet displaying the state of the loops, using the Z21 App.  

 

I agree resistors on some stock might help with the indicators, but not essential.   And probably work fine the way James suggests with just tail vehicles, or a handful of vehicles.   

 

 

I assumed no software, other than the standard Z21 App on a tablet to display that a section is occupied or empty. 
The main loops would show as "empty" in my simplest scenario (no wagon/coach resistors, even though there is stock in the main loop), but that's OK if the operator knows that is what happens, and there will be a train behind the loco showing in the "loco stop zone".       So, its not a perfect solution, but would "do the job" for the stated aims.   

 

 

 

[WIMorrison]

Problem is that the track is hidden therefore you need to show occupation where there is any stock located.

[ianLMS]

Wow. Thank you all. It certainly appears a little more complicated than i thought.!!!! I will take a look at the varioud hardware options available although the Roco does seem the logical choice and use the software on my tablet or laptop and get used to the tech!!

[ianLMS]

I am looking at this one from Digitrax and it appears to allow panel leds to be fitted.

 

https://www.digitrax.com/products/detection-signaling/bd4n/

 

Anyone have experience? The z21 Start doesnt have loconet so wouldnt be able to expand it for that function.

 

 

[WIMorrison]

Are you aware that this will not provide output that will work with the z21 therefore you will not be able to show occupancy on the z21 app?

[peach james]

You can use either a DB168 or a SE8C.  If you use the BD4N's, be aware, all they do is provide an occupancy- no feedback into Loconet.  You have to use a DS64,DS74 or DS78V (or a SE8C) to put the inputs into Loconet.  The BD4N replaces the BD4, which was cheaper and easier to wire...

Yes, you can use the BD4N to drive a remote panel LED. 

If it was me, and I wanted to sense the above, the answer would be "it depends", because if you are using Zimo decoders, I would go with something which does RailCom, so that you "could" automate the staging yard.  

James

[ianLMS]

Thanks for that. Its an option of just using the detector to light led panels and nothing more or get my arse into the 21st century and use the software and utilize the Roco stuff and app. 

 

Will think on that one a little more!

[WIMorrison]

If you want the Railcom ID on the z21 app then you could connect a a Roco 10808 to the feedback blocks and that will show on the app screen.

 

I am not 100% certain that it will work with the BD4N but I am fairly certain they will work together as long as the loco draws enough current when at rest.

[Nigelcliffe]

14 hours ago, ianLMS said:

Wow. Thank you all. It certainly appears a little more complicated than i thought.!!!! I will take a look at the varioud hardware options available although the Roco does seem the logical choice and use the software on my tablet or laptop and get used to the tech!!

 

It doesn't need to be complicated.   It depends what level of information you wish to achieve.    

 

Current situation is:   
    There are six storage roads, and they may, or may not, contain a train.  That train might be a light engine, one wagon, or the maximum length a storage road holds.    The operator only knows what's there by either lifting the lid and looking, or remembering.   (Or using something to aid memory, such as pen/paper, or fridge magnets on an information board).    

 

My simpler solution, with only the loco's detected for occupancy: 

    Information would tell the operator where the loco was, in four positions:  entry to storage road, along the main part of road, in the loco-stopping area, or exit to storage road (overshot, or departing).   

It would tell the operator nothing about a train behind the loco (light engine? one wagon ? long train?).   

It would be sufficient to tell the operator that the storage road was occupied, and running another train into there was not safe.    And it would tell the operator, at a glance, which roads were occupied.   

     

 

Adding more things can give more information.   But, one needs to check it is useful information.     

Resistors on all (or some) wheelsets will add the train to the occupancy detection.    That would tell that a train hadn't cleared the entry to the yard (but if the loco was in the stop area, then either the train is over-length, or the train couplings have failed, so is it really adding to useful information for the human operator ?).      

 

Changing to RailCom detection would give loco identification (assuming all locos are Railcom capable), as well as occupancy. 

 

 

 

Using the BD4N's would mean running wires for each detector back to a panel, or adding a stand-alone LocoNet.     

Doing it with just led's wired into the BD4N's will require four BD4N's (about £120) and the construction of a panel with its associated wiring.   

If wanting to use LocoNet, then start by upgrading the z21 to either a Z21(black) or a Digikeijs system and then integrate LocoNet into the system.    For LED physical panels on LocoNet, I'd look seriously at the Signatrak/CML DTM30 board.       

I can't see change out of £400 for that approach, and its not doing RailCom loco identification yet.   

 

I'm pretty sure that RailCom would require upgrading the z21 to a Z21(black) or Digikeijs system.  The Roco RailCom detectors need the CAN bus connection (not on the z21white/start, present on the Z21black), the Digikeijs ones need LocoNet,  etc..   

 

 

 

I come back to the Roco detector doing the job in one box for just under £100, and a £100 tablet for display (Argos and Currys sell suitable Android tablets that price).  Simple, works, and its all Roco supplied stuff (Roco hardware, Roco z21 App) should you get problems.   The BD4N's with LEDs would be cheaper, but its got all the wiring, and time/effort in panel construction to do a decent job.    Anything else is a major upgrade.  

 

 

Or fridge magnets which you move around manually - really cheap, no soldering....   

 

 

- Nigel

 

 

 

 

[ianLMS]

Thank you Nigel. Really appreciate the response and it definately gives me plenty to think about.

 

Happy New Year everyone!!!!

[arv]

On 31/12/2021 at 22:49, ianLMS said:

Good morning folks,

I have 6 hidden sidings and have tried different ways to detect when the loco's have reached the point they need to stop so they don't foul the adjoining tracks. I have tried Infra-red, reed switches and CCTV but none really work perfectly.

 

I have a z21 Start, wi-fi enabled, however I tend to use the red multimaus hand-controller and operate points via DCC Concepts ADS-8SX's and momentary switches on a mimic board (i like the old ways sometimes)

 

I am looking at the various feedback/block/occupancy detectors available, but am unsure which the best one would be for what I am looking for.

 

Points to consider;

1. There are 6 sidings, 3 for each direction hidden under a hillside

2.  I can access the tracks as the hillside is hinged so can isolate sections if required

3. I would like the ability for the detector to light up LED's on the mimic board when the loco is in the section

4. I do not want to fit reed switches/magnets (been there/done that) 

5. I don't use PC control or the tablet much but may want to in the future (i like the idea of automation, just not savvy or brave enough yet)

6. Price isn't too much of a consideration if its going to do the job I need it to.

7. I use predominantly Zimo decoders.

 

As always, any assistance or advise would be greatly appreciated.

 

Ian

 

Hi, I have pretty much an identical setup, I wish I had more than the 6 hidden sidings that I have.

 

I use ABC braking to stop and hold a train in a siding, driven by a switch on the mimic board, it applies ABC to the last 2.1m of the siding. The zimos should also support ABC braking but I use Lenz decoders. The nice thing is that once a train has stopped gently in the hidden siding, simply releasing the ABC braking will restart the train and you dont need to know what DCC address the train has in the siding. Points are controlled separately using solenoids.

 

To light the occupancy light on the mimic board I used infra red detectors (IRDOT-Ps) from Heathcote Electronics, one for each siding. The roof of the hidden area needs to be painted matte-black above the detector. They light the corresponding light on the mimic panel and also switch the main siding entry point back to the mainline. The detectors are placed towards the end of the sidings allowing the train to enter almost fully first. The auto-point switching is so that the next train does not accidentally run up the back of the previous one directed to the sidings, something that tends to happen if you allocate a train to the siding so that it stops by itself, it is easy to forget that the points are now directed to the siding.

 

Hope that helps

 

Regards

 

Andrew

 

 

 

[ianLMS]

Thanks for that Andrew. Still contemplating what operating method i really want and if i want to go deeper into the world of dcc or stay a little more old school! 

[ianLMS]

With the help of Dave Fenton of Megapoints, i now have exactly what i was looking for and it works perfectly. When visiting the BRM show at Doncaster in February, i approached Dave seeking his advice and to see if his Megapoints system would work in my scenario. At the time, the current Megapoints system wouldnt do the job but he was in the process of developing his System 2 boards which he designed for Pete Watermans layout built for the Chester Cathedral. Even though they werent on the market yet, he sold me a System 2 input and output board, 12 occupancy detectors and some LEDs. I fitted them last week and they work perfectly!!! Total cost was around £150 so not cheap but it is exactly what i wanted and the boards can do so much more if u need them to. Check out his videos on you-tube.

 

One very satisfied customer!!!!