Hornby 2022 - Trains on Film

[Skinnylinny]

Part of the problem is nobody knows exactly what happened when at both companies. The Rapido Newsletter where they confirmed they were going to produce the Titfield Thunderbolt included this section:

 

Quote

 

I pitched several ideas to Jason and Bill during my first week at Rapido. The Titfield range would be the headline alongside the Hunslet 16in and others. Bill’s wry smile and Richard’s enthusiastic endorsement allowed the project to progress.

But we couldn’t do anything without securing permission from STUDIOCANAL, which owns the rights to Ealing Studios' archive. We negotiated for the exclusive rights to produce four items of rolling stock and the Bedford OB.

While this was going on, we also had to source drawings and images and to speak to owners of real vehicles. We dropped Simon Castens a line too. Simon owns The Titfield Thunderbolt Bookshop and is a respected 'Titfield expert'. He kindly agreed to help. We also watched the film many, many times.

All this research was gathered over the winter of 2020/2021 with the intention that, when the deal was signed with STUDIOCANAL, we could send all the research packages off to China.

We signed on the dotted line in early 2021. Our plan was to wait until we had Engineering Prototypes of the various models before we made our big announcement. However, this plan was dashed when the cat was let out of the bag.

STUDIOCANAL informed us that, on March 5th, another party had tried to acquire the rights to the film. We’d already signed the deal so the approach was turned down. Then, the following Monday, another manufacturer announced that it was making Lion.

Could the two incidents be linked? That left us in a quandary. Do we stay quiet or announce the range?

Richard had an idea: why not make an announcement of an announcement? And, just to increase the sense of fun and intrigue, why not make the big reveal on April 1st?

 

[Emphasis mine, source: https://myemail.constantcontact.com/Rapido-UK-News---No--3.html?soid=1101318906379&aid=sGWrBCZGI0M ]

Edited January 10, 2022 by Skinnylinny

[Chameleon]

This could be a PR disaster for Hornby. It appears to be a case of Goliath trying to crush David and does NOT show them in a good light. Rapido announced their model almost a year ago. What stage of development/commitment were ‘Hornby at when Rapido made their announcement?

[Meld9003]

Rapido had the idea first and got the license because of this. Hornby were unaware until the applied for the license and were rejected. An awful lot of the complaints about Hornby copying people are very dubious as are complaints from people who don't understand the Tier System for retailers.

[Pmorgancym]

2 hours ago, Bluebell Model Railway said:

Certainly quite a risk, its a new range for sure... I am just trying to remember who announced what first.... as it was last year all this came out, so it appears some how they both knew they were both working on the same if not similar range.... So I don't really buy the whole Studio Canal knew nothing about someone else doing it....  Someone knew something about it.

Depending what the IP covers.... obviously the other manufacturer thinks its got the upper hand... but is that for the use of the name... or the graphics.. or the use of Studio Canal on the box its obviously more heavily branded for the enthusiast or collector.  

There could also be a clause or an agreement between the two, which says deny everything... who knows, either way get on with it, not interested in all this political stuff... depends who has the best sales... either way Studio Canal sell a few more dvds 

I doubt there would be any written clause or agreement between Studio Canal and Hornby that would undermine an existing exclusive agreement.  If there was Rapdio would be quids in.  

Also, the fact that Rapido's response video uses clips from the original film is rather telling in itself.

[Corbs]

23 minutes ago, TEAMYAKIMA said:

One thing is not clear to me.

 

I thought (and perhaps I'm wrong) that Hornby had been working on their concept before Rapido made their announcement. Now, I wish to make it clear that, if that is the case, I am not accusing Rapido of copying Hornby, but equally if that is the case it would be an unfortunate case of two companies working on 'secret' projects, each without being aware of the other.

 

I have based my previous comments on my belief that Hornby had been planning/developing their range after the success of ROCKET. Therefore their range was being developed before the Rapido intervention and Hornby are not copying Rapido. If I am wrong and it were the case that Hornby invented this range just to crush RAPIDO then that is another matter. Can someone give any guidance please?

 

Hornby produced a 60th anniversary Titfield set (see pic).
This was produced under licence with StudioCanal.

 

Hornby announced their Lion model last year with the tagline 'The cat's out of the bag', stating that they had heard there would be a leak that they were producing Lion and they had decided to announce it early.

 

Rapido publicly announced shortly after that they are making Lion and the Titfield Thunderbolt train packs (under licence from Studio Canal) for the 70th Anniversary of the film and had begun work on CAD etc.

 

Hornby announced today that they are making their 'Inspired by' range.

 

For the avoidance of doubt, The Railway Children Return, The Lady with a Lamp and The Titfield Thunderbolt are all property of Studio Canal.
Hornby has an official licence for The Railway Children Return tie-in products.
Rapido has an official licence for The Titfield Thunderbolt.
Neither company has stated they have an official licence for The Lady with a Lamp.

Edited January 10, 2022 by Corbs

[Miss Prism]

When did StudioCanal acquire the job lot of rights on the Ealing Studios films?

 

[Pmorgancym]

3 minutes ago, Corbs said:

 

Hornby produced a 60th anniversary Titfield set (see pic).
This was produced under licence with StudioCanal.

 

Hornby announced their Lion model last year with the tagline 'The cat's out of the bag', stating that they had heard there would be a leak that they were producing Lion and they had decided to announce it early.

 

Rapido publicly announced shortly after that they are making Lion and the Titfield Thunderbolt train packs (under licence from Studio Canal) for the 80th Anniversary of the film and had begun work on CAD etc.

 

Hornby announced today that they are making their 'Inspired by' range.

 

For the avoidance of doubt, The Railway Children Return, The Lady with a Lamp and The Titfield Thunderbolt are all property of Studio Canal.
Hornby has an official licence for The Railway Children Return tie-in products.
Rapido has an official licence for The Titfield Thunderbolt.
Neither company has stated they have an official licence for The Lady with a Lamp.

Hornby 'heard about' the other Lion and Titfield products when they approached Studio Canal for the licence and were told that it had already be acquired by another manufacturer. 

(Left of field, anyone know if the Aster Thunderbolt is a licensed product???)

[Meld9003]

Did they just call it Thunderbolt or brand it 'as seen in The Titfield Thundebolt'?

[MarkSG]

2 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

When did StudioCanal acquire the job lot of rights on the Ealing Studios films?

 

 

StudioCanal owns the rights to a lot of older movies, as part of a portfolio they have steadily built up over time. That includes the Ealing Studios output owned by Associated British Picture Corporation.

[Miss Prism]

4 minutes ago, MarkSG said:

 

StudioCanal owns the rights to a lot of older movies, as part of a portfolio they have steadily built up over time. That includes the Ealing Studios output owned by Associated British Picture Corporation.

 

Yes, I know.

 

I wanted to know when. (I suspect it was pre-2013 when Hornby produced its R3186 TF set.)

 

[Pmorgancym]

6 minutes ago, Meld9003 said:

Did they just call it Thunderbolt or brand it 'as seen in The Titfield Thundebolt'?

As I recall there we 2 kits Lion was green and black and Titfield Thunderboltnwas green and read (I was saving typing the extra 8 letters :D)

[HonestTom]

4 minutes ago, Meld9003 said:

Rapido had the idea first and got the license because of this. Hornby were unaware until the applied for the license and were rejected. An awful lot of the complaints about Hornby copying people are very dubious as are complaints from people who don't understand the Tier System for retailers.

Yeah, I don't think it's a case of Hornby copying per se (lest we forget, they were the first company to produce a Titfield Thunderbolt train pack with the ex-Airfix 14xx, Lowmac and Toad). I think it's likely that Lion has been in the works since 2020, when it became clear that there was a strong market for Rocket, and they figured it was worth seeing if they could get the licence for Thunderbolt as well.

20 minutes ago, Corbs said:

 

Neither company has stated they have an official licence for The Lady with a Lamp.

How curious! Like most modellers, I have often yearned to recreate this 1951 historical drama in miniature.

[Pmorgancym]

12 minutes ago, HonestTom said:

Yeah, I don't think it's a case of Hornby copying per se (lest we forget, they were the first company to produce a Titfield Thunderbolt train pack with the ex-Airfix 14xx, Lowmac and Toad). I think it's likely that Lion has been in the works since 2020, when it became clear that there was a strong market for Rocket, and they figured it was worth seeing if they could get the licence for Thunderbolt as well.

How curious! Like most modellers, I have often yearned to recreate this 1951 historical drama in miniature.

That's probably the most galling aspect, Trains on Film is a good concept.

Get Carter  - Blue Deltic and MK2s

St Trinity's 

Lady Killers 

Harry Potter (why was this re branded under this range??)

Buster (Great Train Robbery has always been controversial modelling wise I accept)

Mission  Impossible 1 Eurostar

 

Etc

 

 

 

 

[Corbs]

3 minutes ago, Pmorgancym said:

 

St Trinity's 

Lady Killers 

 

Wonder who owns these.....

[RichardT]

It’s not about who “had the idea first”. The sour taste is being caused by Hornby’s attempts to sail close to the legal wind in order to poach sales from another company who have done the right thing and bought an IP license from the licence holders.

 

We’ll probably never know the truth, but: It’s perfectly credible that Hornby independently started developing a Lion model off the back of their Rocket offerings. They might even have started this before Rapido, independently, had the idea to do a specifically Titfield Thunderbolt product to make a big splash on their entry to the UK market.
 

In this scenario, at some point someone in Hornby decides, after the company has already spent money on development work on Lion, that marketing a model as “Titfield Thunderbolt” would generate extra sales over and above sales to the people who bought Rocket.  Perhaps they even assume that their earlier TT (I’ll use this abbreviation from now on!) licence for the 14xx TT train pack will cover this.  Whatever, the fact is that when Hornby finally got  around to enquiring of Studiocanal about a TT licence they discovered that Rapido had beaten them to it months before.

 

So, possibly Rapido had decided to get the licensing issue nailed down *before* starting development work and publicity, whereas Hornby started development and then only belatedly thought to do their legal homework.  I would have thought that the TT connection to Lion would have been so obvious from the start that that’s the first thing Hornby should have sorted out, but there you go: eye off the ball, or too many assumptions not being checked?

 

Anyway, up to this point we are still in “all’s fair in competitive business”territory. Some you win, some you lose.  Rapido having secured the TT licence have the field for film tie-in models called “Thunderbolt” plus souvenir train packs, buses etc. Hornby have missed a trick, but can still go ahead and produce a model of “Lion” as preserved, or in presumed 1830s condition (along with its two sister locos) for sale to modellers of the 1830s, the 1930s (Lion), of preserved railways, or collectors.  And, having spent development money up front before thinking to check the license situation, Hornby could get their Lion to market before Rapido’s TT.

 

But what is causing the sour taste is that, instead of accepting that less-than-optimal but still profitable situation, Hornby are stamping their feet and trying to grab some of the specifically TT market, that Rapido have paid licence fees for, by producing what look like “passing off” products.  

 

(I think that might be my last comment on this!)

 

Richard

Edited January 10, 2022 by RichardT
Sorry - just seen Honest Tom’s post above covering the same points!

[RichardT]

6 minutes ago, Pmorgancym said:

That's probably the most galling aspect, Trains on Film is a good concept.

Yes, absolutely. No need at all for Hornby to get all hooked up on this one example.

 

Richard

[PaulRhB]

Hornby and Rapido obviously both had the same idea and started work before either knew about the other. Hornby found out when they went for the rights to the film version. Carrying on to produce Lion was fair game if they’d already spent a lot of time on research. Getting refused the license then blatantly copying the film version when you know you should have a license? That’s just asking for trouble and makes you look arrogant. Would they take on Coke in the same way or the Bond franchise that are notoriously litigious?  

No manufacturer is going to say when they actually started working on them and why and as many wouldn’t believe them anyway in this situation, what’s the point? Simon K has made it very clear in both Hornby series he’s going to go after ‘their models’, although how Lion fits that I don’t know, and he’s stepped across into making them seem like bullies rather than the victim with the antics as a result. 
I’m not joining any boycott of Hornby for two reasons, there’s plenty of folks relying on their jobs in Hornby and if the Hornby model doesn’t duplicate someone else’s announcement and it’s something I wanted then it’s a nice to have. That said I put my order in with Rapido for the Titfield set and I will be buying a Lion from them too because on that Hornby’s antics stink and I know that it will be a fine model from two others I’ve got. 
Hornby have lost my loyalty and sympathy for the top brass antics but seeing the same in many companies I’ll vote with my wallet where there’s an alternative. 

[HonestTom]

2 minutes ago, Pmorgancym said:

That's probably the most galling aspect, Trains on Film is a good concept.

Get Carter  - Blue Deltic and MK2s

St Trinity's 

Lady Killers 

Harry Potter (why was this re branded under this range??)

Buster (Great Train Robbery has always been controversial modelling wise I accept)

Mission  Impossible 1 Eurostar

 

Etc

 

 

 

 

An obvious one that springs to mind for me is Paddington 2, which features a very prominent train chase that could (I think) be quite reasonably recreated by Hornby. They have Tornado and Pullman coaches in their Railroad range, they (presumably) have the Lima 'Crab' and the circus train (which is freelance) could be made up of the usual Railroad curtain-sided vans and vent vans. And Hornby have produced a Paddington-themed set already.

 

 

[Pmorgancym]

2 minutes ago, RichardT said:

It’s not about who “had the idea first”. The sour taste is being caused by Hornby’s attempts to sail close to the legal wind in order to poach sales from another company who have done the right thing and bought an IP license from the licence holders.

 

We’ll probably never know the truth, but: It’s perfectly credible that Hornby independently started developing a Lion model off the back of their Rocket offerings. They might even have started this before Rapido, independently, had the idea to do a specifically Titfield Thunderbolt product.  
 

In this scenario, at some point someone in Hornby decides, after the company has already spent money on development work on Lion, that marketing a model as “Titfield Thunderbolt” would generate extra sales over and above sales to the people who bought Rocket.  Perhaps they even assume that their earlier TT (I’ll use this abbreviation from now on!) licence for the 14xx TT train pack will cover this.  Whatever, the fact is that when Hornby finally got  around to enquiring of Studiocanal about a TT licence they discovered that Rapido had beaten them to it months before.

 

So, possibly Rapido had decided to get the licensing issue nailed down *before* starting development work and publicity, whereas Hornby started development and then only belatedly thought to do their legal homework.  I would have thought that the TT connection to Lion would have been so obvious from the start that that’s the first thing Hornby should have sorted out, but there you go: eye off the ball, or too many assumptions not being checked?

 

Anyway, up to this point we are still in “all’s fair in competitive business territory” - some you win, some you lose.  Rapido having secured the TT licence have the field for film tie-in models called “Thunderbolt” plus souvenir train packs, buses etc. Hornby have missed a trick, but can still go ahead and produce a model of “Lion” as preserved, or in presumed 1830s condition (along with its two sister locos) for sale to modellers of the 1830s, the 1930s (Lion), of preserved railways, or collectors.  And, having spent development money up front before thinking to check the license situation, Hornby could get their Lion to market before Rapido’s TT.

 

But what is causing the sour taste is that, instead of accepting that less-than-optimal but still profitable situation, Hornby are stamping their feet and trying to grab some of the specifically TT market, that Rapido have paid licence fees for, by producing what look like “passing off” products.  

 

(I think that might be my last comment on this!)

 

Richard

I

To me the madness is, they could have tooled up the 14xx and the Wisbech coach and enjoyed complimentary sales from the licensed rapido product.  But instead they're deciding to face it off.

[ClaughtonSteve]

My only observation is that if you view Rapido's "reply" to Hornby's announcement, the use of clips from the Film are so well edited into Rapido's production and are sanctioned by Studio Canal, the way it has been written and presented all suggest that in all but name it is a Studio Canal production.  if not they certainly had a big say in the matter, and it certainly wasn't cobbled up over night.  Whether it's the first shot or Hornby have already been served with a cease and desist notice only Hornby and Studio Canal know.  No doubt money will sort out the situation, but I agree that whilst we need Hornby to be successful, we don't need them to be the bully in the playground or act as a petulant child, which it has appeared as a number of times recently.

[Roy Langridge]

2 hours ago, Kris said:

You can't copyright a name but you can trademark one, StudioCanal appear not to have done this as a simple search on the .gov.uk trademark website shows no records, either in a search for the name or from a search of all of the trademarked names that StudioCanal have. 

Why are you assuming that it is a UK trademark? In terms of trademarks, those extant before 01/01/2021 in Europe still hold value in the UK at the current time. With StudoCanal being French, I believe a European Trademark registration is more likely.

Roy

[On30runner]

9 minutes ago, Pmorgancym said:

That's probably the most galling aspect, Trains on Film is a good concept.

Get Carter  - Blue Deltic and MK2s

St Trinity's 

Lady Killers 

Harry Potter (why was this re branded under this range??)

Buster (Great Train Robbery has always been controversial modelling wise I accept)

Mission  Impossible 1 Eurostar

 

Etc

 

 

 

 

they could easily do Train of Events too with what they already have.

[PaulRhB]

Yes the film aspect is a great idea and St Trinians would be a fun set with some thought on the accessories. I think a Buster set would get mired in the debate on the real robbers treatment of the driver though. 
 

[Pmorgancym]

1 minute ago, HonestTom said:

An obvious one that springs to mind for me is Paddington 2, which features a very prominent train chase that could (I think) be quite reasonably recreated by Hornby. They have Tornado and Pullman coaches in their Railroad range, they (presumably) have the Lima 'Crab' and the circus train (which is freelance) could be made up of the usual Railroad curtain-sided vans and vent vans. And Hornby have produced a Paddington-themed set already.

 

 

Yes odd they never exploited that further. 

[Pmorgancym]

1 minute ago, PaulRhB said:

Yes the film aspect is a great idea and St Trinians would be a fun set with some thought on the accessories. I think a Buster set would get mired in the debate on the real robbers treatment of the driver though. 
 

Something that didn't seen to affect the film.