A statement on The Titfield Thunderbolt.

[Zunnan]

7 minutes ago, Covkid said:

 

Quick question, was Lion one as a class or were there others ?

 

Lion as used in the film was unique and bore little to no resemblance to its original condition. Hornby are free to model it in its museum condition, or any other condition they like, they could possibly get away with the same livery without the carrying name...adding the words 'Titfield', 'Thunderbolt' or anything else related to the film anywhere near it, presumably also the specific train formation, is where it gets messy.

[Oldddudders]

I think I use Thunderbolt to charge my MacBooks Pro.....

 

It is a pity when commercial imperatives cause this situation in our hobby. We have seen in recent years major box-shifters fall out with leading manufacturers when they dared to step onto their turf. Rapido appear to have acted in full concert with the IP owner - not least in the clever use of clips in the Andy Hardy video. Apparently that isn't good enough for the other guy.

 

Whatever the outcome, Margate has not covered itself in glory. And, before I watched this video, I had looked at the new releases and concluded there is nothing for me, so those people have not started 2022 well. Being the bigger firm still requires you to be the 'bigger person' in life - commercial or social.

[adb968008]

Interesting times for sure.

 

I wonder what Studio Canal thinks of this ?

[Aire Head]

4 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Interesting times for sure.

 

I wonder what Studio Canal thinks of this ?

 

They were mentioned in the Rapido video as being involved so at guess I'd say not happy.

[MartinTrucks]

Congratulations to Rapido on (IMHO) a well-made video statement!

 

Hornby's friends Rails of Sheffield have just emailed a link to it.  

 

Good luck Rapido!

Regards,

Martin

[MrTea]

Like others, I do feel sorry for Rapido on this one. But the more I think about it, the more confused I am.

 

It seems to put Studio Canal in quite an awkward position too as they've licensed the rights to Rapido for the Titfield Thunderbolt but also they have a tie up with Hornby who will be producing a version of their 4F in the Railway Children Returns guise?

 

Hornby must have consulted lawyers to calculate how close they can get to producing a Titfield Thunderbolt set without breaching the licensing agreement Rapido and Studio Canal have. And they must have factored in what they'd lose in sales by not releasing their Lion in a Titfield-themed set in time for the 50th anniversary in 2023.

 

It's almost as if Rapido had announced their intention to produce one of Hornby's 'crown jewels'. To me, there's got to be more to this than meets the eye.

 

Anyway, I'm very much looking forward to the Rapido announcement of the CR Drummond 0F 0-4-0ST when that breaks cover!

[Covkid]

2 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

Whatever the outcome, Margate has not covered itself in glory. And, before I watched this video, I had looked at the new releases and concluded there is nothing for me, so those people have not started 2022 well. Being the bigger firm still requires you to be the 'bigger person' in life - commercial or social.

 

Absolutely right, and if you are the bigger company, think about your product lines. When Accuscale rocked up three or four years ago, it was easy to think of them as a "modern image" market supplier, and truthfully therewasn't a lot for me initially, but then HOP 24s, 21 tonners and Coil As totally changed my opinion, then the Manors which I ordered one, and all of a sudden Accuracale are taking my modelling budget. 

 

Margate on the other hand seem to be a dithering mess and the documentary series IMHO has not done them many favours at all. A little clue Simon if you are reading this, get yourself down to a preserved railway with your scanner and look at an LMS freight vehicle , preferably a van, but an open would do.  Do it right and you will sell many hundreds if not thousands.     

[Covkid]

1 minute ago, MrTea said:

Like others, I do feel sorry for Rapido on this one. But the more I think about it, the more confused I am.

I would say Rapido will come out of this fairly well and with modeller support. 

1 minute ago, MrTea said:

It seems to put Studio Canal in quite an awkward position too as they've licensed the rights to Rapido for the Titfield Thunderbolt but also they have a tie up with Hornby who will be producing a version of their 4F in the Railway Children Returns guise?

Why doesn't that surprise me.  Hornby's ex Airfix 4F is the LMS left hand drive version.  The 4F on the K&WVR is an Midland right hand drive 4F - 43924 - ironically a Bachmann product.  Unless of course Hornby retool the Midland version of the 4F with the gubbins on the opposite side of the boiler, but it wouldn't be the first time Hornby fudged it, simply because it is a scruffy old black goods engine rather than a Pacific  

 

1 minute ago, MrTea said:

 

Hornby must have consulted lawyers to calculate how close they can get to producing a Titfield Thunderbolt set without breaching the licensing agreement Rapido and Studio Canal have. And they must have factored in what they'd lose in sales by not releasing their Lion in a Titfield-themed set in time for the 50th anniversary in 2023.

 

It's almost as if Rapido had announced their intention to produce one of Hornby's 'crown jewels'. To me, there's got to be more to this than meets the eye.

 

Anyway, I'm very much looking forward to the Rapido announcement of the CR Drummond 0F 0-4-0ST when that breaks cover!

 

[Aire Head]

7 minutes ago, Covkid said:

A little clue Simon if you are reading this, get yourself down to a preserved railway with your scanner and look at an LMS freight vehicle , preferably a van, but an open would do.  Do it right and you will sell many hundreds if not thousands. 

 

Absolutely agree with this it just seems like an open goal that not of the manufacturers seem to want to shoot for.

[Kris]

Looking at Copyright of the film would seem to be the wrong avenue to be following.

Copyright of the film would cover the distribution and showing of the film, the recreation of the film, use of the script, use of the music. Hornby do not appear to have done any of this. As this is a pre 1956 film the individual frames of the film would be covered by copyright rather than the film as a whole (Hornby do appear to have use 2 or 3 frames from the film, however these could have been redrawn by their own artists with specific differences).

There do not appear to be any trademarks associated with the film.

 

If there is to be a legal challenge it would most like have to be from a design aspect. The coach with Sam's house on it would be a possibility as a unique vehicle created wholly for the film. As a design however unless registered it may not be automatically covered and the length of cover differers from that applied to copyright. 

 

In the past Hornby (via Corgi) have recreated the Pearce and Crump bus, presumably with the consent of the films owners. It may be that it is felt the agreement for this covers the previous production, or that if no agreement was in place that the lack of a legal challenge gives implied consent. 

 

Rapido should have focused on demonstrating how much better their product will be rather than trying to get into a dubious legal bun fight that will help no one other than the lawyers. 

 

[Otis JB]

To be honest, I expected Hornby would try their old 'tricks' again and I'm sure this activity will continue for some time to come no matter what we all think of it. It just saddens me when you think that they could have used all the time, money and resources they put into Lion to make something new that would please everyone like Planet or Locomotion and still probably have made as much profit.  

[Dunsignalling]

7 minutes ago, Otis JB said:

To be honest, I expected Hornby would try their old 'tricks' again and I'm sure this activity will continue for some time to come no matter what we all think of it. It just saddens me when you think that they could have used all the time, money and resources they put into Lion to make something new that would please everyone like Planet or Locomotion and still probably have made as much profit.  

Hopefully, this little enterprise will cost Hornby enough in costs and damages to make a few eyes water in Margate, and we'll consequently see a little less in the way of "entitlement" from them in future. 

 

John

Edited January 10, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[AMJ]

3 hours ago, Harlequin said:

Hornby making a special point of even making the bus! That’s just malicious.

 

They are just digging out the OOC casting that was in the Corgi portfolio and putting some paint on it.

[7013]

If this is Hornby's attitude to other manufacturers, they have lost a lot of credibility in the modelling world. It is always healthier when we have lots of manufacturers making different models. Hornby are like the playground bully who will take from others. It is not clever marketing or competition, it is a poor decision by Hornby which has rightly seen a backlash from the modelling world. I hope they have the good grace to withdraw the set and leave the field clear, if not, I hope they get their fingers burned in the courts. I would not buy the Hornby version on principle.

[Michael Hodgson]

2 hours ago, ruggedpeak said:

Time for a very large bag of popcorn. Lets see what Studio Canal actually do. It would be naïve to assume that Hornby haven't taken some legal advice, as you can see from their packaging they appear to have tried to avoid direct copyright/IP infringements. There are a whole host of issues to be worked through before anyone can decide such a case. Lion is not IP exclusive to the film for example, have Studio Canal vigorously defended the IP previously etc etc.

 

 

Would "It's not as accurate a copy of the film as Rapido's" be valid as a legal argument for the defence?

[Neil]

I wonder if Hornby thought that the agreement they had which allowed them to produce this would also cover them to make their 'Inspired by ...' set.

 

Their is also however a whiff of DJ's tactic to try and lay claim to as much as possible. While Hornby obviously think that they can make money with their choices I do wonder if there's a supplementary motivation to intimidate others from entering the marketplace as producers. 

[iak]

Blimey, this is a bit of a turn- up...

What are Hornby playing? 

Wibble...

[Roy L S]

I have mulled this over during the morning, and I simply have to conclude that whatever the rights and wrongs, the duplication of these models by Hornby is disappointing and feels quite unnecessary. There is no way of knowing for sure what the motivation for doing so is, but I cannot believe it is because there were no other choices that could have been done, to me it feels like a spiteful attempt to disrupt Rapido's well publicised intentions as far as these models go. 

 

I appreciate that there is an argument that "business is business" and the big player is flexing their muscles, but I can't also help feeling that it is a sign of insecurity too and in that context an attempt to undermine the new upstart, the quality of whose models is a nasty wake up call.

 

As an N gauge modeller I have no skin in this particular game, and OK duplication has not been unheard of in N but always much more "mainstream" models never anything quite as niche as this.

 

A very sad state of affairs. 

 

Roy

[Oldddudders]

10 minutes ago, Neil said:

I do wonder if there's a supplementary motivation to intimidate others from entering the marketplace as producers. 

Indeed - a warning-shot across everyone's bows! "We are the household name, and upstarts watch out."

 

I feel, though, that these film tie-ins are aimed at a market other than the pure enthusiast. I can't be the only one who hasn't seen, and won't be seeing, any of these films since I am very wary of movies and trains. I saw the first few minutes of the Downton Abbey movie the other day. Set in the late 20s, the locomotive leaving KX looked awfully like a B1, dating from the early '40s.

 

These sets all feel a little too much like 2012 Olympics merchandising, and that didn't go too well...

[Michael Hodgson]

3 minutes ago, Roy L S said:

I have mulled this over during the morning, and I simply have to conclude that whatever the rights and wrongs, the duplication of these models by Hornby is disappointing and feels quite unnecessary.

 

Absolutely.  It can't be good for the hobby, whatever the outcome of putative litigation, for manufacturers to be enriching armies of overpaid lawyers instead of investing their funds in making new models.

 

If as seems to be consensus on this forum the little guys have a better case, the big guys have much deeper pockets, so it would be unwise to assume a foregone conclusion even if one thinks the assumed facts are an open and shut case.

[stonojnr]

5 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 

Absolutely.  It can't be good for the hobby, whatever the outcome of putative litigation, for manufacturers to be enriching armies of overpaid lawyers instead of investing their funds in making new models.

 

If as seems to be consensus on this forum the little guys have a better case, the big guys have much deeper pockets, so it would be unwise to assume a foregone conclusion even if one thinks the assumed facts are an open and shut case.

 

I think Studio Canal are the bigger boy in all this and have entire departments of overpaid lawyers looking out for infringements on their commerical properties, its almost as lucrative as actually making new films for them, so Hornbys defence might well have to come down to the fact they frequently struggle to actually model alot of their products with complete accuracy anyway.

[Dunsignalling]

2 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

Indeed - a warning-shot across everyone's bows! "We are the household name, and upstarts watch out."

 

I feel, though, that these film tie-ins are aimed at a market other than the pure enthusiast. I can't be the only one who hasn't seen, and won't be seeing, any of these films since I am very wary of movies and trains. I saw the first few minutes of the Downton Abbey movie the other day. Set in the late 20s, the locomotive leaving KX looked awfully like a B1, dating from the early '40s.

 

These sets all feel a little too much like 2012 Olympics merchandising, and that didn't go too well...

 

To look at it another way, maybe it's a tacit admission on Hornby's part that "OK, we may no longer be the best, but we are determined to make sure we remain the biggest".

 

I really think there is a lack of concern for reputation and public image in all this that Hornby need to consider.

 

The internet ensures that even beginners become aware of other brands very quickly nowadays. Growing rivalry within the marketplace therefore looks like that is only likely to increase, so how dominant "the biggest" can reasonably expect to be may need to be revised. 

 

What is surely more important is to be profitable and supply products of high quality; sheer size cannot ensure either. I personally have a very high regard for what Hornby has done in the past, and some of what it is doing now. Because of that, I think an injection of dignity would be in order.

 

John

[Fair Oak Junction]

3 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

I really think there is a lack of concern for reputation and public image in all this that Hornby need to consider.

 

I agree, but sadly the top of pile companies don't seem to care that much about public image any more. I see it across all the hobbies I'm in (wargaming, video games, etc) that the largest and most famous companies can weather these controversies because there will always be enough people who don't care and still buy the products to keep them afloat. Also as some people on this forum prove there are still plenty who can see what Hornby are doing but defend them to the death regardless. As much as I'd like things like this to change, it's getting worse year on year.

 

I was already wavering on giving more money to Hornby after their recent behaviour and the W1 debacle, but this is the final nail in the coffin. Rapido and the other newer blood companies in the hobby will be getting all my modelling funds going forward.

[Dunsignalling]

27 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 

Absolutely.  It can't be good for the hobby, whatever the outcome of putative litigation, for manufacturers to be enriching armies of overpaid lawyers instead of investing their funds in making new models.

 

If as seems to be consensus on this forum the little guys have a better case, the big guys have much deeper pockets, so it would be unwise to assume a foregone conclusion even if one thinks the assumed facts are an open and shut case.

However, the "little guys" in question won't be Rapido as licensees (other than jointly), they'll primarily be the rights owners, so any contest is unlikely to be as asymmetrical as we might think.

 

Film companies have a record of pursuing such cases very aggressively. After all, intellectual property is the very foundation of their businesses. 

 

Even if Hornby could "outgun" this one, if there were any prospect of a precedent unfavourable to the industry as a whole being set, they could expect financial/legal support from one or more of the "big boys". Giants who could buy and sell Hornby out of their petty cash....

 

John

Edited January 10, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[Ian J.]

After this bru-ha-ha, I kind of wish I knew I'd never need to buy anything from Hornby again. Unfortunately, even though for 2022 it's a case of 'nothing for me', H are such a 'big' player that they will undoubtedly produce something I would like at some point in the future that no-one else will produce, and I'll be stuck with either the H offering or nothing.