Hornby 2022 Black 5 new tooling

[mdvle]

On 13/05/2022 at 10:15, jonnyuk said:

i think most manufacturers suffer from delays, even the new comers. Difference is they get afforded far more slack than Hornby for example.

 

Sometimes.

 

The amount of understanding is also influenced by other issues though - if customers are otherwise happy they will be more flexible (to a point) but if say there is long running issues with a lack of wanted liveries being offered, problems with getting what you order due to a terrible tier system, etc. then the customer is less likely to be patient.

 

And as noted by Stationmaster, Hornby's "big bang" announcement works against them as they can't react to things that happen in the following 6 months without impacting what they announced in January - and this helps feed the narrative around Hornby.  For example the current lockdowns in China - Hornby are stuck because they announced everything 5 months ago and made assumptions whereas their competitors can all simply delay announcements to take into account the problems.

[adb968008]

6 hours ago, Jon Harbour said:

Whilst the smoke generator for the Black 5 (and others) might be seen as a bit of a gimmick, I've been surprised that nobody has mentioned Hornby's use of the technology introduced by TRS Trains? Seems to me like another attempt to muscle in on an innovation made by a cottage industry player and stomp them out of the market.

At £269 i doubt it.

 

if anything it may grow their business for retro fits, as at these prices the newpurchase section of the market might stagnate somewhat.

[Johan DC]

TRS are not the first, and Märklin uses this already for some years in diesels. 

But they are amazing, now with the cylinders as well!

[SteamingWales]

7 hours ago, Jon Harbour said:

Whilst the smoke generator for the Black 5 (and others) might be seen as a bit of a gimmick, I've been surprised that nobody has mentioned Hornby's use of the technology introduced by TRS Trains? Seems to me like another attempt to muscle in on an innovation made by a cottage industry player and stomp them out of the market.

 

I don't think so. The Hornby smoke unit is available in 2 models (Black 5 and A3 I think) whereas TRS are independant and will fit smoke units into any model from a 14xx to Merchant Navy and are not bound by a portfolio.

Edited July 18, 2022 by SteamingWales

[HExpressD]

7 hours ago, Jon Harbour said:

Whilst the smoke generator for the Black 5 (and others) might be seen as a bit of a gimmick, I've been surprised that nobody has mentioned Hornby's use of the technology introduced by TRS Trains? Seems to me like another attempt to muscle in on an innovation made by a cottage industry player and stomp them out of the market.

I think this could be a little unfair, no one has seen the Hornby smoke generator yet so to say it is a copy of the TRS unit doesn't seem that valid to me. If when it arrives it looks exactly the same then game on but in the mean time maybe we can put the knives away for a few more days.

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, HExpressD said:

I think this could be a little unfair, no one has seen the Hornby smoke generator yet so to say it is a copy of the TRS unit doesn't seem that valid to me. If when it arrives it looks exactly the same then game on but in the mean time maybe we can put the knives away for a few more days.

When it comes down to the wire it is going to eb very simple - if Hornby have infringed anyone's patents or IP there'll be potential problems for them and if they haven't there won't be any potential problems for them.  As you say that will only become known when their models appear although the idea of using a water based system is obviously not new and Marklin have, I think, been offering one for some time on larger scale models.

[Wheatley]

Ultrasonic humidifiers (which is essentially what this is) were patented over 40 years ago so this is not new technology. We had one for when No.1 son got croup. Making it small enough to fit in a 4mm loco is quite clever though.   

[RAF96]

1 hour ago, Wheatley said:

Ultrasonic humidifiers (which is essentially what this is) were patented over 40 years ago so this is not new technology. We had one for when No.1 son got croup. Making it small enough to fit in a 4mm loco is quite clever though.   

 

They are commercially available now small enough to fit in locos but the clever bit is making the control electronics small enough to be universal then it boils down to making a water tank to fit the loco and we all know that no two locos could use the same reservoir, so it becomes bespoke and that is where the Hornby engineering giant comes in. They can make a unique tank to fit their locos from drawing along with space to lodge the atomiser and electronics, which of course has to be synch’d with a sound decoder to pulse the chuffs.

As such I doubt we will ever see Hornby retro kits for their ‘smoke’.

[Wheatley]

Hopefully they've worked out how to make the chassis out of titanium or DU, because with all these Gucci toys taking up space inside it's going to be even lighter on it's feet than the old one !

[The Stationmaster]

43 minutes ago, RAF96 said:

 

They are commercially available now small enough to fit in locos but the clever bit is making the control electronics small enough to be universal then it boils down to making a water tank to fit the loco and we all know that no two locos could use the same reservoir, so it becomes bespoke and that is where the Hornby engineering giant comes in. They can make a unique tank to fit their locos from drawing along with space to lodge the atomiser and electronics, which of course has to be synch’d with a sound decoder to pulse the chuffs.

As such I doubt we will ever see Hornby retro kits for their ‘smoke’.

Surely the sound decoder et all has first to be in sync with the revolutions of the driving wheels other wise you won't get the correct number of exhaust beats per revolution.  And of course the number of exhaust beats changes with the speed at which the loco is moving.  But then you're left wondring how the cut-off is altered because that should also be adjusted (by the Driver) as speed etc changes which will also change the exhaust noise and appearance.

[shedman]

Plus they'll need to upgrade their TTS sound, or buy in ESU or Zimo etc chips, to synchronize the sound/chuffs with the wheels.

Edited July 18, 2022 by shedman
Typo

[Phatbob]

2 hours ago, Wheatley said:

Hopefully they've worked out how to make the chassis out of titanium or DU, because with all these Gucci toys taking up space inside it's going to be even lighter on it's feet than the old one !

A titanium chassis would be very light.  IIRC Ti is less dense than Aluminium!  Uranium (depleated or otherwise) would be an abolute sod to cast as well as unbelievably expensive.  Best option would be tungsten, which is easier to work / cast, cheaper and denser than uranium.

[Dunsignalling]

5 minutes ago, Phatbob said:

A titanium chassis would be very light.  IIRC Ti is less dense than Aluminium!  Uranium (depleated or otherwise) would be an abolute sod to cast as well as unbelievably expensive.  Best option would be tungsten, which is easier to work / cast, cheaper and denser than uranium.

And not crumble to dust?

[Wheatley]

Oops. Got titanium and tungsten mixed up, sorry. I was joking ... 

[Phatbob]

3 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

And not crumble to dust?

Nope.  Not unless you alloy it with the wrong other metals.  Some models already on the market have used tungsten chassis without any "mazac rot" style issues.

 

[Phatbob]

2 hours ago, Wheatley said:

Oops. Got titanium and tungsten mixed up, sorry. I was joking ... 

 

No problemo, we've all done it!  The suggestion of DU was clearly a joke, and not a bad one.  As I said, tungsten is denser than uranium in any case, so a better choice for several reasons.

[Hilux5972]

On 18/07/2022 at 19:34, SteamingWales said:

The Hornby smoke unit is available in 2 models (Black 5 and A3 I think)

Will be in the new P2 as well. 

[ellocoloco]

On 18/07/2022 at 17:13, shedman said:

they'll need to upgrade their TTS sound, or buy in ESU or Zimo etc chips

Hornby already use ESU loksound and lokpilot decoders in their HO range of models so a relationship with ESU already exists if a higher spec decoder is required. 

[Sam*45110*SVR]

Surprised this hadn't already been posted, but Hornby had a prototype with a 3D printed body of the Caprotti valve gear fitted model on display. I've attached a picture I took of it.

[E100]

Very surprised this isn't further on than a 3D print. It was originally slated to arrive in June 2022... ...that was clearly blatant misinformation, since it would have needed to be have been fully tooled to hit that, which this still isn't. I spoke with the main designer on the stand and it was said to be the very back end of next year i.e. 2023Q4. No doubt with additional slippage this could very easily be a 2024 model.

[MikeParkin65]

48 minutes ago, E100 said:

Very surprised this isn't further on than a 3D print. It was originally slated to arrive in June 2022... ...that was clearly blatant misinformation, since it would have needed to be have been fully tooled to hit that, which this still isn't. I spoke with the main designer on the stand and it was said to be the very back end of next year i.e. 2023Q4. No doubt with additional slippage this could very easily be a 2024 model.

Gives me hope that Hornby know someone else is planning Black 5  - always thought  the inclusion in the 2022 catalogue was a flag planting exercise. 

[Delta_Who]

Looking back at the talk about TRS trains smoke/Bournemouth West smoke copyright claims : https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/84/93/74/81e0c775e926b6/GB2578664B.pdf

 

Thing is, I don't know if he's specifically the first to use it? People citing Marklin...and I'm pretty sure some basic childrens toy trains from China do use this. So is this even valid? I dunno... I'm not a copyright expert.

 

I just hope Hornby produce a preserved example with their smoke unit effect. Looked pretty decent on the Scotsman... albeit the intensity could have been better. No doubt also tied to TTS (so cylinder sounds/chuff will be slightly off)

 

 

[RAF96]

Everyone has missed the point that the new locos have a 21-pin socket so this means a new decoder. This is not a 21-pin TTS clone but a new design to cater for the smoke unit and the wheel to chuff synch as told of by the Hornby rep at the recent shows. Until you get one in hand you can make all the TTS assumptions you like but you will be wrong.

Also as stated this smoke tech is decades old, the clever bit is miniaturisation and adaption of the electronics and making a bespoke tank to fit each loco type.

[Delta_Who]

6 minutes ago, RAF96 said:

Everyone has missed the point that the new locos have a 21-pin socket so this means a new decoder. This is not a 21-pin TTS clone but a new design to cater for the smoke unit and the wheel to chuff synch as told of by the Hornby rep at the recent shows. Until you get one in hand you can make all the TTS assumptions you like but you will be wrong.

Also as stated this smoke tech is decades old, the clever bit is miniaturisation and adaption of the electronics and making a bespoke tank to fit each loco type.

 

I mean.. we already have current prototypes to go off, so I wouldn't say it was a blind assumption. There's a fair bit of time between now and when the Smoke Black 5s/Scotsmans are due anyway... so I'm not going to be overly pedantic about it.

 

 

Now Hornby... about that new-tool scotsman in LNER apple green + smoke deflectors...

[Hilux5972]

2 hours ago, Delta_Who said:

 

current prototypes to go off

Exactly, “prototypes”. Means nothing about what the finished product will be like