Popular Post Citadel Posted January 26, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted January 26, 2022 (edited) Hello there, relatively new to railway modelling and have found RMWeb a great inspiration (even though the standards set are somewhat daunting). Potentially a lifetime project but planning a layout based around Carlisle Citadel station in the early 1870's (just after the Midland arrived). So many different railway companies and so much colour and atmosphere. OK, maybe a bit of mission creep setting in so may end up in the 1880's (after the reconstruction) but let's see. Plenty of prototype and historical questions but will start a thread covering these in the appropriate forum. As a starter for 10 Just finished my first three carriages - the LRM Saltley kits in 4mm. Firstly the brake third. Haven't really seen any photos or drawings of the prototype so have to admit that added a couple of embellishments such as the luggage rails, lamp caps etc. on the roof: Secondly the composite. Reading the Millard/Casserley book this does look to be pretty representative of what you would find on WCJS duty in the 1860's (though yes, maybe should have the WCJS crests and the green lettering): Then finally the five compartment third. Not sure this would have found its way as far North as Carlisle but to be honest going back this far everything starts to become a little vague... Wasn't 100% sure about the whitemetal brakes supplied with the kits so fabricated my interpretation of the Webb chain brake system. No actual brake shoes yet - one day... Certainly interested in any further prototypical background about these coaches - sense only the composite that is truly representative of what you might find in Carlisle in the 1860's and very early 1870's. Really welcome your comments. Best Regards Mike Edited November 21, 2023 by Citadel 31 21 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol Wilkinson Posted January 26, 2022 Share Posted January 26, 2022 (edited) Lovely models, great work. You have set yourself a bit of a challenge modelling the 1870s, most of the LNWR 4mm kits available tend to be from the later 1880's and 1890's.. I chose 1907 as a date for my modelling as it has the widest chioce of earlier and later locos and stock (even then it gets a bit bit variable if their is a kit for something I like). Edited January 28, 2022 by Jol Wilkinson Typo 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Chas Levin Posted January 26, 2022 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 26, 2022 Lovely looking coaches, very nice job . Same as you, I find RMWeb a great source of info and inspiration but you're right that there's some seriously impressive and professional work on show. I try to look at those things as inspiration though, as something to aim at - it stops them seeming so daunting! How did you do the lining and the other fine paintwork on the coaches - bow pen or brush? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Citadel Posted January 26, 2022 Author Popular Post Share Posted January 26, 2022 (edited) Firstly, many thanks everyone for the likes. Hopefully moving in the right direction but still know where my faults are and will try to get better.. Jol, praise from someone of your caliber is praise indeed. Did I mention mission creep in the original post - think everyone needs a Webb compound in their life. It was just that they extended Carlisle in the mid 1870's to a size that won't fit in my workshop... Also think they possibly diverted freight away from the station at the same time (and I like freight). Sense a degree of pragmatism will prevail as the comment you make is spot on! Mikkel, it's really your fault I'm here (honest truth). Was lurking around on RMWeb wondering whether to take the plunge then read that story you did about the eels and was hooked - this sort of fun approach to modelling (coupled with real depth of research) inspired me and made me realise I could tell the wife I was studying Victorian Britain rather than playing trains. I'll send you the bill though - it's getting expensive.... Right, lining. Think there are better people to ask than me but I muddle through. Have to admit my only experience with a bow pen was the cheap compass set I got from WH Smith whilst at school - tried it on a model at the time and still scarred by the experience. Yes, I know better bow pens are available but think attacking a model with one again would cause an anxiety attack. I've gone down the Rotring route using their white opaque ink which I tint using Windsor and Newton calligraphy inks - to be honest seems pretty waterfast once dry and can be sealed with acrylic varnish. Those coaches had a lot of handling to get the flipping roofs stuck on properly and this didn't really have any ill effects. Spray the coach sides doing the white first, mask off then do the plum. For beading then just colour the whole bead yellow and once the ink has dried put a fine line down the middle with plum made from red/blue/black Rotring ink. Have never tried to put anything like paint through the pen, don't think it would end well. Personally use Pheonix Paints as the base and think the satin appearance helps avoid reticulation (but to be honest the ink wets out pretty well). Did try once to prime the coach with satin acrylic resin before lining thinking it might help with adhesion/durability but to be honest it just clogged the pen. Then the secret weapon is a 6" steel rule (and a selection of shorter pieces of Plasticard) with the judicious addition of badminton racquet grip. Not only is this non slip, its also protects the painted surface and copes with relief detail - keep this c. 1mm from the edge of the rule to stop ink bleeding below it. Finally I hold the coach body like a knuckle duster and use my thumb to hold the rule whilst keeping my right hand free to do the lining (was trying to multitask in the photo below and got distracted by taking the photo so my ruler isn't straight). Do try to avoid touching the paintwork with anything other than the back of the ruler as find hot sweaty hands (there is a lot of sweating going on during my lining) don't do much good to the paintwork. On the coach above the plum between the panels is all from the pen, once varnished merges in well. OK, it's not necessarily the best technique but just try to live within my limitations. One of the great benefits of using the Rotring is that you can do it for 10 minutes then put it down and do something else (there's no cleanup really). With the yellow ink onto the paint find can clean up mistakes with moist cotton wool bud, with the plum on the yellow you're stuffed - just put it down, let it dry then patch up the yellow... Seriously the bowpen is still king end I envy those who can wield it. My technique works quite well on coaches but heaven help me if I go anywhere near a loco. Chas, looking at your thread nice work in this respect. Edited April 1, 2022 by Citadel 22 1 7 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coal Tank Posted January 28, 2022 Share Posted January 28, 2022 Excellent work, very nice indeed. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeithHC Posted January 28, 2022 Share Posted January 28, 2022 On 26/01/2022 at 19:53, Jol Wilkinson said: Lovely models, great work. You have set yourself a bit of a challenge modelling the 1870s, most of the LNWR 4mm kits available tend to be from the later 1880's and 1990's.. I chose 1907 as a date for my modelling as it has the widest chioce of earlier and later locos and stock (even then it gets a bit bit variable if their is a kit for something I like). I didn’t know the LNWR lasted until the 1990’s so that is why there are so many 4 wheelers still about……….. Sorry will get my hat and coat. Keith p.s. Great models considering being new to the hobby. Can we presume you are an experienced modeller in other avenues. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol Wilkinson Posted January 28, 2022 Share Posted January 28, 2022 Keith, a typo on my part, probably confusion caused by "LNWR" four wheelers being produced by Hornby and Hattons in 2022! Jol 1 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coal Tank Posted January 28, 2022 Share Posted January 28, 2022 I quite like the idea of the yellow ink, 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coal Tank Posted January 28, 2022 Share Posted January 28, 2022 (edited) Hi I hope that you dont mind, but I have mentioned this thread on the LNWR Society facebook page, as I have put photos of some of my coaches on there and some want to know how it is done. I think that your idea of using the yellow ink isnt as intimidating as the thought of abow pen. John Edited January 28, 2022 by Coal Tank 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Citadel Posted January 28, 2022 Author Share Posted January 28, 2022 (edited) Once again many thanks for the kind comments and feedback. Am I an experienced modeller? Have always been interested in drawing and illustration (hence the Rotring fixation) and yes I've dabbled in modelling - but never seriously. Where I think I'll fall down is the fettling required to make a locomotive, especially one that runs smoothly - but at least have uninformed optimism on my side (imagine informed pessimism will come later). Went down the EM route - I'm definitely not ready for P4. The Saltley coaches didn't happen overnight - they were started last March and there's a fair amount of learning through by own mistakes in them. What you see is not how they turned out the first time(!) Am pleased with the end result though hence the confidence to dip my toe into actually posting. A bit off topic re: time period but here's what I finished last night. LRM horse box (based on the D&S etches) On the bottom says it's the D409 but the only variant on the LRM website is D438 (with an absolutely beautiful photo of a built model) - it is different though and looks to be a bit longer. To be honest not a problem as what I've got looks great it's and it went together really nicely. Can anyone solve the mystery though? Painting had its drama's though. First attempt at an undercoat used Halfords red oxide rattle can on top of the Phoenix Paints grey etch primer. Did think it looked quite matte at the time but when I tried to paint the plum it just turned into faux fur. Liberal application of paint stripper sorted the issue but also removed all the strapping that I'd stuck on with superglue (I'm looking longingly at a resistance soldering unit). Used Halfords etch primer the second time and worked OK - in hindsight think I'd held the red oxide can too far away the first time and the paint had dried before reaching the model (hence creating a sponge). One of those days.... Again lined with the Rotring (this time 0.13mm). The narrow pens are really temperamental though on this sort of surface so in places had to go over twice to get the opacity. Edited April 1, 2022 by Citadel 14 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Chas Levin Posted January 28, 2022 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 28, 2022 I sympathise; I had some real trouble with rattle-cans and furry finish. Like you I concluded - after experimenting and after following lots of advice - that I was holding the can too far away, moving to fast / erratically and not getting enough paint on in each sweep: there needs to be enough paint, still wet, for it to 'pool', or perhaps 'flow' is a btter word, and form a smooth surface. Looks like you got it sorted in the end though! 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Citadel Posted January 28, 2022 Author Share Posted January 28, 2022 (edited) Coal Tank (John), really impressed by your work - again your positive feedback is really welcome. Around the LNWR Society piece of course not an issue. Bit worried that I might have made it sound a bit easier than it actually is. You do need to be careful that the paint is really dry before lining the model as soft paint can block the nib resulting in a lot of bad language and repetitive strain injury from continually shaking the pen to get the ink to come out(!) You do get there eventually though and as you say it's easier than a bowpen to those who feel a bit intimidated by that technique. I won't even start with my experiments with Posca pens - that didn't end particularly well. Best Regards Mike Edited January 28, 2022 by Citadel 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coal Tank Posted January 29, 2022 Share Posted January 29, 2022 Thank you for your comments 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol Wilkinson Posted January 29, 2022 Share Posted January 29, 2022 Mike, does the code underneath the Horse Box say DS409? That was the original D&S kit code. The LNWR Horsebox, 10T Brake Van (with a new, different etched underframe) and the two early 26ft six wheel Luggage and Milk/Fruit vans in the LRM range are from the D&S range. I have found that airbrushing the basic body colours and primers is best (especially if you can get cellulose paint). That usually gives a thinner paint layer. Even with cellulose I leave the painted model in the airing cupboard for at least 24 hours to fully dry off. I too use Rotring Isograph pens for the final "plum" line along the beadings having applied the yellow with a bowpen. The downside of that is that semi-matt or satin paint drives with a slightly "rough" surface and tends to wear the tubular nib end. So I started to apply the straight lines with a bowpen as I became a bit better at using one, using the Rotring to finish off the corner fillets. However your technique using inks only on the beading looks very good and I'll give it a try when the opportunity arises. Jol 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Citadel Posted January 29, 2022 Author Share Posted January 29, 2022 (edited) Yep, DS409. Good news, means that I can build a D438 as well now... Looking at the horse box again assume should have a white 'A' in the centre of the solebar (location of the automatic vacuum brake release)? Was this just one side or both? Also when leafing through LNWR Liveries by the HMRS (to try and find the answer to the question above) came across the 'Changing Engines at Stafford in the Early 1860's' painting by Gerald Broom. The first carriage looks suspiciously like the brake third from the beginning of the post - it reminded me that I'd forgotten to put the red tail lights on it, will have to have a rummage around and find them. The 26' Brake and the Fruit/Milk Van, they're next. Need to fit roofs and wheels etc. then I'll post pictures Edited January 31, 2022 by Citadel 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol Wilkinson Posted January 29, 2022 Share Posted January 29, 2022 3 hours ago, Citadel said: Yep, DS409. Good news, means that I can build a D438 as well now... Looking at the horse box again assume should have a white 'A' in the centre of the solebar (location of the automatic vacuum brake release)? Was this just one side or both? Also when leafing through LNWR Liveries by the HMRS (to try and find the answer to the question above) came across the 'Changing Engines at Stafford in the Early 1860's' painting by Gerald Broom. The first carriage looks suspiciously like the brake third from the beginning of the post - it reminded me that I'd forgotten to put the red tail lights on it, will have to have a rummage around and find them. The 26' Brake and the Fish Van, they're next. Need to fit roofs and wheels etc. then I'll post pictures You have already built a D438, the 409 is D&S's code for their LNWR Diagram 438 kit. Confusing, isn't it. It doesn't help that both D numbers appear on the LNWRS website, the reference to a Diagram 409 as produced by D&S is wrong. The "A" should appear on both solebars AFAIK. I look forward to seeing the two 26' vans. Mike Williams (son of Geoff Williams who built the wonderful Aylesbury layout) wrote a piece in one of the magazines showng how he converted one of them to a four wheeler, which happened to several of them at some point. 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coal Tank Posted January 29, 2022 Share Posted January 29, 2022 I picked up one of the D&S brake vans at the Last Expo EM for £18 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penlan Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 (edited) If your doing early Saltley period coaches....... Then one (or more) of the Micro-Rail* Horse boxes might be more in period. * That's who I had mine from, I know not who has them now........ Of course if you can possibly track down any of Mr Boucher's 'J. Wright' period coach etchings, then there was (amongst others) this too, which I admit looks similar to LRM's Saltley Coach. Edited January 30, 2022 by Penlan 13 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol Wilkinson Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 13 minutes ago, Penlan said: If your doing early Saltley period coaches....... Then one (or more) of the Micro-Rail* Horse boxes might be more in period. * That's who I had mine from, I know not who has them now........ Of course if you can possibly track down any of Mr Boucher's 'J. Wright' period coach etchings, then there was (amongst others) this too, which I admit looks similar to LRM's Saltley Coach. Sandy, didn't the Microrail kits go to Alan Gibson, although they have't been available for some time. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Citadel Posted January 30, 2022 Author Share Posted January 30, 2022 (edited) Penlan, first of all many thanks for sharing the photos, really enjoyed them and certainly food for thought. Will digest properly and do justice to commenting on this in a future post. Jol, many thanks for the clarification. Just a comment then, might the photo accompanying the D438 kit on the LRM website be wrong - could this one be the D436 from Wizard/51L? The quality of the painting on that model is just superb though, see it was done by Ian Rathbone and looking through his website flipping heck, how do you achieve that level of quality... Right, 26' brake. Finished it this afternoon. Kit went together really nicely but have to say the way the wheels are mounted in the under frame doesn't fill me with confidence. Built it as per the instructions though and everything looks to move smoothly (have also weighted the middle wheels with lead) - let's see.... Have coaches with the LRM Cleminson underframe on the go at the moment, seems a much better solution. Now a confession, although I really enjoy making the models haven't actually bought any EM track yet(!) Test track on my to-do list, did get a couple of the British Finescale point kits earlier this week. I love the looks of this carriage - the thought of those poor guards having to co-ordinate the operation of the chain brakes makes me smile/wince. Edited April 1, 2022 by Citadel 11 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Citadel Posted January 30, 2022 Author Share Posted January 30, 2022 (edited) Quick question, any advice on the livery of the milk van? Did it in plum and cream to reflect as initially converted - does it still have the yellow lettering on the plum panel and where does the numbering go. Had a quick look through the books I have and can't seem to find the answer. Like the way you can see through it, need to get making some milk churns... Edited April 1, 2022 by Citadel 8 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coal Tank Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 Again, lovely work these really do look very nice. I am currently making one of the brake vans John 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penlan Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 First, you would not have been able to see through the original panels, They were built as per the first photo, so no need for Milk Churns. I would suggest a black piece of card a millimeter or two behind the grills, not tight to them. I stand to be corrected, but by the time these Brake Vans had been converted for Milk Traffic I suspect they were painted in NPCS Brown, but the Society's Livery Register indicates this is after 1905 for converted Brake Vans. Prior to that, they were as you've shown, in passenger livery. I do seem to have one of the earlier 4 Compt Luggage Vans converted to Milk Traffic, note the vents are polished Mahogany, or similar (Kit from Modellers World). But back to the Converted Bk Van, Mine is in post 1905 livery, I don't seem to have lettered it for Milk Traffic, but....... And I'm not sure where the number came from (many years ago), but until the Society manages to publish it's book on NPCS, these things will have to remain a mystery. All E.& O.E. 8 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penlan Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 Jol, VERY much tongue in cheek and hopefully humour....... Unfortunately I don't have an 'App' connected to my old Excel 'Stock List' of 449 items on the spreadsheet (and 15 vertical cols) , which will update the information as manufacturers/suppliers etc., come and go, often I'm lucky if I've even noted the origins of some of the stock, though there are some interesting names there from long ago. For instance Vacuum formed Plastikard side/ends luggage vans from Mike Peascod, and some 'Red Rose' etched products. . Like you Jol, the eyesight is not what it was, but at last after around 68 years* I now have a roundy-roundy layout at home where I can sit (on a revolving bar stool ) and watch the trains go by/round. * That was a 'Hornby Double OO' 3 rail on a 8 x 4 board. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol Wilkinson Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 6 hours ago, Penlan said: Jol, VERY much tongue in cheek and hopefully humour....... Unfortunately I don't have an 'App' connected to my old Excel 'Stock List' of 449 items on the spreadsheet (and 15 vertical cols) , which will update the information as manufacturers/suppliers etc., come and go, often I'm lucky if I've even noted the origins of some of the stock, though there are some interesting names there from long ago. For instance Vacuum formed Plastikard side/ends luggage vans from Mike Peascod, and some 'Red Rose' etched products. . Like you Jol, the eyesight is not what it was, but at last after around 68 years* I now have a roundy-roundy layout at home where I can sit (on a revolving bar stool ) and watch the trains go by/round. * That was a 'Hornby Double OO' 3 rail on a 8 x 4 board. Sandy, I didn't know about the Mike Peascod vac formed sides. I've used the Trevor Charlton etched zinc sides/ends (still got some, for a semi-Royal saloon) but never seen any Red Rose ones other than John Redrup's TPO's. I tend to rely on the LNWRS 4mm modelling spreadsheet but that isn't definitive, especially for the older stuff. I m working on the continuous layout, still at the baseboard building stage, but slowly getting there. Mike, I don't know the answer to the horsebox photo on the LRM site. It does look like the HB on the 51L site, which is the former PC Models kit. I have't got a built LRM version or a kit to compare with it. Jol 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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