Citadel's Workbench - Carlisle in late Victorian times

[Citadel]

Firstly Coal Tank....  No tumblehome and only two windows, life doesn't get much better than that.  Enjoy!

 

Penlan, what can I say.  Thank you for sharing the images and your experience - much appreciated.  Bit worried about the rotating bar stool, if it goes round-roundy in the same direction for too long it might unscrew and fall off    Shame about the milk churns though, maybe will have to save them for the platform....

Pretty confident about the white upper panels prior to 1900 (though accept completely outside my target period as the vans were only converted in the early 1890's).  They just look old though and at the time I was scratching around for something that looked like it came from the the 1870's...   From the photo's always thought that the louvres were darker but just assumed soot etc. - the polished mahogany look does appeal so going for that.  Reading the kit instructions again (why didn't I think of that earlier) it does mention lake for the louvres with a yellow line at the bottom edge of each one - but I'd assumed this was after the whole van was painted plum.   Anyway, mahogany it is...
 

Still a bit stuck on the lettering.  The van on Plate 73 of Talbot's L&NWR Miscellany Vol 1 (with white panels) has the suggestion of something on the bottom white panel on the lookout (suspect L&NWR as per the brake).  Sods law though, have run out of that particular transfer on my HMRS sheet...  Maybe I'll just leave it off for now, build the model and put it on later.  No evidence of the yellow lettering and notice it still has the lamp which was a bit surprising (not filing the top off the lookout on my model now)....  

 

Around the other post really like the horse box.  This is the Kitbuilding and Scratchbuilding forum after all and as a first project does have a certain appeal.  Looks to be good background in the link attached

 

https://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=7481

 

Once again thanks everyone for the kind comments.

Edited February 1, 2022 by Citadel

[Citadel]

Finished the Milk Van (well almost, just realised it needs vacuum pipes).  Penlan, went with your advice and placed black card 2mm behind the vents, also went for the mahogany look....  Does need some transfers / lettering though when I find out what to do.

 

 

 

Here's a family photo with one of its ancestors:

 

 

 

Do like these kits, they make interesting models (they are the same height honest, it's just that the milk van was slightly nearer the camera).

 

Before I start anything else (i.e. horseboxes) need to finish some of the other stuff I started last Autumn.  First off the LRM 30' 1" Inspection Saloon that's 90% there.  Watch this space....

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited April 1, 2022 by Citadel
Added the text(!)

[Penlan]

Excellent 

[Coal Tank]

Yes excelente 

[Citadel]

Not sure if anyone here has heard the TED talk about the Monkey of Instant Gratification (look it up) but he was definitely dominating my brain when I read about this model on RMWeb and saw it on the LRM website.  Again, out of period but just had to build one....

 

 

 

A lady in the director's coupe - I ask you...  In part a blow for sex discrimination, in part it was the only sitting figure I had ready to go.  Got a bit carried away with the interior due to the large windows - you can't really see all of it but at least I know it's there....

 

 

 

Really impressed with the Cleminson under frame, builds up so well (but getting all those little circle things lined up to make the damper thingies at the ends of the springs is a bit masochistic). 

 

 

 

In summary, the best designed kit I've built to date (well in my limited experience anyway) - thanks for putting in all the hard work to create it Mr Wilkinson.

 

 

 

Still have to add the ends to the roof canopy (had lost them - fortunately they have just turned up).

Edited April 1, 2022 by Citadel

[Jol Wilkinson]

You are welcome, Mike. It's nice to see kits I have designed for John Redrup at LRM being appreciated built and finished so well.

 

Jol

[Chas Levin]

3 hours ago, Citadel said:

Not sure if anyone here has heard the TED talk about the Monkey of Instant Gratification (look it up) but he was definitely dominating my brain when I read about this model on RMWeb and saw it on the LRM website.  Again, out of period but just had to build one....

 

 

A lady in the director's coupe - I ask you...  In part a blow for sex discrimination, in part it was the only sitting figure I had ready to go.  Got a bit carried away with the interior due to the large windows - you can't really see all of it but at least I know it's there....

 

 

Really impressed with the Cleminson under frame, builds up so well (but getting all those little circle things lined up to make the damper thingies at the ends of the springs is a bit masochistic). 

 

 

In summary, the best designed kit I've built to date (well in my limited experience anyway) - thanks for putting in all the hard work to create it Mr Wilkinson.

 

 

Still have to add the ends to the roof canopy (had lost them - fortunately they have just turned up).

Fabulous! I have one of these in the stash to build but I'd not seen a picture of the finished articel before - now I'm even keener to build it and will have to bump it up the priority list.

Lovely build and lovely painting too, not to mention the interior.

The Cleminson design is really excellent isn't it? I used the Brassmasters one under a 3D printed Mike Trice GNR Brake body and couldn't believe how well it works (especially on my layout's tight curves).

[Chas Levin]

1 hour ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

You are welcome, Mike. It's nice to see kits I have designed for John Redrup at LRM being appreciated built and finished so well.

 

Jol

Hello Jol, just wrote in a reply to Mike's beautiful pictures that I have one of these to build and not only had I not seen pictures of one, but I also didn't know it was a kit that you'd designed. I remember your mentioning that you sign your etches, so I guess I'd have discovered your authorship when I came to build it!

[Citadel]

Many thanks for the kind comments Chas.  Have just realised looking at the giant sofas again that they are maybe something from the set of the Borrowers but hey, you don’t really notice through the windows.

 

Next project is to complete the 42’ full brake I started a couple of months ago.  Early 1890’s so well out of my original period (couldn’t resist (that damn monkey again).  At least it’s genuine WCJS and will have made it as far North as Carlisle.
 

Only a couple of weeks into posting on RMWeb but sense that my plans are evolving.  Think I’ll now go Carlisle post the reconstruction at the end of the 1870’s which opens up more possibilities re: stock etc.  It’s a lifetime project though, started the thread below where I’ll try to channel the more prototype related questions
 

 

Key focus initially though is stock (will initially build small test track but no scenery/ballast etc.). Might also do a small diorama/backdrop for photographic purposes.  Maybe also a loco or two, maybe something crimson, or maybe the NER.  Maybe will need to rename this thread....

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited February 7, 2022 by Citadel

[Coal Tank]

Mike, that is a lovely,....... lovely model as are all three 

John 

[Penlan]

If you want something really early 

Then this may fit the brief, though the lettering has NO authenticity at all.
This is one of the very old Rocket coaches from long ago with the solebars opened through etc., 
 

[Penlan]

Perhaps I should explain that some of my rolling stock has been acquired over some 50 years through people asking me to build/alter a kit for them,  then they decide it wasn't really what they wanted, and "... I can keep it"?
The biggest item is/was the WCJS Dia 9 Composite Diner from 'Modellers World', there are a lot of layers of brass to solder together, I was also left the 'Mallard Models' Railcar kit ( about 3 items had been soldered together,  placed in the "I can't do it" box by it's owner, then handed to me by his (ex) wife*), neither model is suitable for my LNWR Central Wales line, but it seems a pity after all the effort of  building, painting and lining them, to then get rid of them, so they are 'In Service'.
The Rocket Coach hangs around in a siding, or in the Ballast Train, visitors like it, and of course 'Rule 1' applies, so who am I to argue ! ! ! ! 
.
* And that is a tale best left alone 

[Citadel]

Penlan, oh boy that's really nice - keep them coming!.  Don't fancy the job of sitting on the roof though getting all covered in soot and cinders (or indeed going over Shap in a snowstorm).  They were certainly made of sterner stuff in those days.

 

Hatching a plan to maybe do a Lady of the Lake in Ramsbottom Green with the slotted splashers, spectacle plate etc. to go with the Saltley coaches (the Gerald Broom painting in LNWR Liveries by the HMRS just has too great a draw)  And there's a Bloomer in the background.... hmm...

 

In the meantime trying to channel myself to focus on the 1880's/90's if I am ever going to achieve the Carlisle layout idea above.  There's so much more prototype information available and it's moving into the period where there are more kits available.

 

Still not without it's challenges though, just about to start three 42' arc roof carriages that would have entered WCJS service in the late 1880's.  They come with bogies and will initially build them like that but really I should be thinking about radial underframes and all the associated issues.  See you got there first....

 

  

 

[Citadel]

Finished the 42' Brake today - my first piece of 'proper' WCJS.  What I'm beginning to realise is that Carlisle right at the northerly extreme of the LNWR network so maybe need to be a little more selective in terms of the stock I build.  Mind you, do keep reading about 'Rule 1'...

 

 

As mentioned above just starting three more 42' arc roof coaches.  As an additional distraction just started reading The 42' carriages of Richard Bore from the LNWR society - what a meticulously researched book and am falling in love with the concept of radial under frames and the early sleeping cars.

 

Current kit on the go something completely different though - watch this space....

Edited April 1, 2022 by Citadel

[Coal Tank]

Can't wait

[Jol Wilkinson]

Mike,

 

there were some radial underframe etched kits, MicroRail  IIRC. They may have been taken over by David Geen or Alan Gibson but don't appear on the LNWRS 4mm carriage kits list.

 

I built one - one of the first LNWR carriage kits I made - but wasn't happy with the underframe design. It had  thin inside "bearings" where the axles ran in the etched brass and the outer axles were in a pivoted pony truck.

 

Jol

[Penlan]

4 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

There were some radial underframe etched kits, MicroRail  IIRC. They may have been taken over by David Geen or Alan Gibson but don't appear on the LNWRS 4mm carriage kits list.

I built one - one of the first LNWR carriage kits I made - but wasn't happy with the underframe design. It had  thin inside "bearings" where the axles ran in the etched brass and the outer axles were in a pivoted pony truck.

Jol, I have some of the original Bill Brown* kits (Micro-Rail) and they are offset bogies, as per the cross reference by Citadel above - which leads you to one of my postings,  very similar to the method used by the late Philip Millard in his 'Red Rose' etched radial chassis kits, which I also have.
Agreed about the unsatisfactory method of the axles running in the thin etched brass, I went back to look at the running of these coaches and opened out the holes where possible and either soldered 1mm thick washers over the original 'split hole' or used some suitable tubing to run almost (say 15mm in EM - then room for a washer either end) the full width across the 'bogies'.   I have also replaced some of the radial setups with bogies.
Has there ever been a kit that hasn't needed tweaking one way or another? 

* Edit:  The first sets of instructions only had Bill Brown's signature on them, soon 'Ron Cadman' was added to them too, as I seem to have both sets of early instructions.

Edited February 13, 2022 by Penlan

[Jol Wilkinson]

1 hour ago, Penlan said:

Jol, I have some of the original Bill Brown kits (Micro-Rail) and they are offset bogies, as per the cross reference by Citadel above - which leads you to one of my postings,  very similar to the method used by the late Philip Millard in his 'Red Rose' etched radial chassis kits, which I also have.
Agreed about the unsatisfactory method of the axles running in the thin etched brass, I went back to look at the running of these coaches and opened out the holes where possible and either soldered 1mm thick washers over the original 'split hole' or used some suitable tubing to run almost (say 15mm in EM - then room for a washer either end) the full width across the 'bogies'.   I have also replaced some of the radial setups with bogies.
Has there ever been a kit that hasn't needed tweaking one way or another? 

 

Sandy

 

I must have been mistaken about the radial underframe design, it is a long time since I originally built the kit and the original underframe is now in the hands of John Redrup.

 

Yes, most kits need some tweaking , although less so for more recent designs in my experience. Some early kits were quite poor and defeated me, K's LNWR six wheel carriages and a couple of Jidenco etched kits being the prize winners. An M&L Coal Engine needed quite a bit of modifying for P4, not unexpected really, while a Proscale Coal Tank needed a new chassis although the body went together well.

 

Jol

 

 

 

 

[Citadel]

As hinted at a bit of an interloper - LRM (ex D&S) kit of an MR Ballast Brake.  At the time I bought it was hatching a plan - although there isn't much freight passing through Carlisle Citadel could maybe do an engineers train - would also give me an excuse to finish my stash of Slaters 3 Plank wagons that I always seem to end up sticking in the shopping cart to push it into free postage territory at Eileen's Emporium....

 

 

 

OK, it's just far too clean but was going to do the weathering at the same time as the wagons.  Also need to get the white ink in my Rotring and do the number go the plate - and yes, it's supposed to say Ballast Brake but my letters were too big so didn't fit (please be kind).  Nice to do something bit different but actually turned out to be quite time consuming - all those handrails!

 

Anyway, back to the L&NWR next.  Picnic Saloon and think I'll get cracking on those horseboxes

 

 

Edited April 1, 2022 by Citadel

[Coal Tank]

Another very nice model Mike 

John 

[Citadel]

Quick question if I may about previous attempts at radial underframes on 42' stock.  Looking at photographs they are so distinctive and a bit like the chain brake the inner workings of F W Webb's mind intrigues me...  Given the period I'm interested in really want some sort of representation on a couple of items of stock even just as a talking point.  Here's the drawing from the Railway Engineer at the time:

 

 

 

Couple of observations having read through the various threads on this subject.

 

1. Using a bogie arrangement with inside bearings feels like the most pragmatic way to go.  OK, the wheels will move independently of the external axleboxes but think I can live with the deceit. If you go for full length footboards etc. the wheels are a bit disguised and don't really want the outer hornblocks/axleboxes moving so will just fix to the frame.   Not got huge experience, do inside bearings on rolling stock work or are they typically something to be avoided - when building the 26' brake, milk van and Saltley coaches opened out the etched slots and fitted Alan Gibson top hat type bearings.  Doesn't run as freely as the pinpoint versions but seemed like the only option on the table - am I asking for trouble here?   

 

2. Spacing between the outer axles is 8' - so same as when the stock was converted to run on bogies.  If the pivot point of the bogie is midway assume no real difference in capability in terms of running round curves (the top part of the wheels on the bogies of the 42' brake I've just built run within the frames)...  Would represent the internal leaf spring with a single thickness of etch as per the other 6 wheel kits I've built so there's no real depth to this.  Yes, I know the earlier underframes were narrower with the external body supports as per the drawing above but maybe compromise required here....

 

3. Reading through Penlan's comments past experience suggests buffer locking an issue hence the pivot point of the bogie was moved towards the ends of the coach.  If I go down the route above and place it centrally pivot point will be a scale 9' from the end of the underframe, on the bogie coaches it's a scale 7' 3".  Essentially becomes a tradeoff between buffer locking and minimum radius - assume can tweak as appropriate. 

 

Assuming the feedback doesn't come back that I'm crazy to contemplate such a thing really interested in giving a radial underframe a go.  Pretty sure all the earlier kits mentioned are dead/dormant/defunct so tempted to crank up the CAD package and have a go at designing an etch to more modern standards which will be compatible with the 42' stock I'm building.  Any recommendations as to who to use here?  PPD Ltd is the first company that comes to mind but welcome the voice of experience and any other alternatives.  Aware that leadtimes are crazy long at the moment - see this as a bit of a slow burner really and will press on building the kits with the bogie underframes for now.

 

You should try uninformed optimism, it feels great   To be honest though I do listen to advice before I jump so anything in this respect most welcome!

 

Edited April 1, 2022 by Citadel

[Penlan]

Taking points 2 & 3, with the pivot point offset a bit towards the ends, then the wheels move slightly less from side to side, and thus a better illusion/representation of a radial action.
I personally would go with the inside AG top hat bearings in the etched 'bogie' frames, but all these things in the end are down to personal choice. 

My Dreadnought can manage 6 - 7 radial coaches plus some lighter, free running,  'Ratio' 50' bogie stock added on, which was a lot longer train than my fiddle yard(s) could handle.

[Jol Wilkinson]

Mike,

 

inside bearings will give you the most opportunity to increase axle lateral movement for the outer axles. There will be more friction but it shouldn't be too noticeable.

 

I have no direct experience of PPD but they do have a good reputation and are able to do smaller etch quantities than the usual culprits. 

 

Jol

 

[Chas Levin]

23 hours ago, Citadel said:

As hinted at a bit of an interloper - LRM (ex D&S) kit of an MR Ballast Brake.  At the time I bought it was hatching a plan - although there isn't much freight passing through Carlisle Citadel could maybe do an engineers train - would also give me an excuse to finish my stash of Slaters 3 Plank wagons that I always seem to end up sticking in the shopping cart to push it into free postage territory at Eileen's Emporium....

 

 

 

OK, it's just far too clean but was going to do the weathering at the same time as the wagons.  Also need to get the white ink in my Rotring and do the number go the plate - and yes, it's supposed to say Ballast Brake but my letters were too big so didn't fit (please be kind).  Nice to do something bit different but actually turned out to be quite time consuming - all those handrails!

 

Anyway, back to the L&NWR next.  Picnic Saloon and think I'll get cracking on those horseboxes

 

 

Very nice model Mike! I find departmental vehicles fascinating, that's a lovely example. And yes, handrails indeed - I built a GNR Ballast Brake a while ago, similar amount of them on that one too!

[Jol Wilkinson]

Mike,

 

my deteriorating brain cells have just remembered that I designed a sprung 8ft inside bearing for John Redrup to try under the MicroRail LNWR 42ft Radial Underframe carriages. I added it to a test etch for some other LRM stuff and sent to JR but don't know if he got around to using it. It was set to P4 width but could be easily be redesigned for OO or EM. I offset the pivot 3mm towards the coach centre line to match the MicroRail underframe. The springing followed the Mousa Models system with etched bearing carriers and guitar wire springs. I've attached a pdf showing the front and rear faces in black and white which is how I design etch artwork for tool production at Photo Etch Consultants.

 

I can let you have a copy of the design file if you wish. I use CorelDraw but can save it in several other formats. It would need modifying to OO width and the colours adapting to fit PPD's requirements.

 

Jol

 

 

Rad bogie.pdf