Citadel's Workbench - Carlisle in late Victorian times

[Portchullin Tatty]

Mike

 

You might want to look at sliding axles as per those i use on 6 wheeled vehicles.

 

I find them much more successful than either cleminson chassis or the moving W iron cradles used a lot by Microrail

 

See here:

 

https://highlandmiscellany.com/2018/02/20/sliding-axles/

 

 

Edited February 16, 2022 by Portchullin Tatty

[Citadel]

Many thanks for all the comments and responses, certainly food for thought.  I have so much to learn....

 

Penlan, a Dreadnought and 7-8 radial coaches.... That’s just the stuff of dreams and definitely something to aspire to!

 

Chas, reading your thread am so impressed by the jigs you are using.  Do my spraying in the outside workshop and today decided my first attempt at the body of a 14’ 6” LNWR horse box needed a bit of encouragement on the drying front.  Turned on the hairdryer and promptly blew it off the workbench and onto the floor (did I mention I had a lot to learn....)

 

Jol, thanks for sharing the drawing.  Although quite new to this can see the benefits of the Bill Bedford springing system - building one of his 3D printed Kirtley Brakes and looks impressive.  Will get myself sorted on the CAD front then be in touch re: file format.

 

Porthcullin, did I mention procrastination and the Monkey of Instant Gratification.  Just spent the last 40 mins looking at your website (when I should really have been picking the pieces of sawdust out of my horse box)  - really interesting.  Will certainly give the sliding axle idea some consideration.

[Chas Levin]

1 hour ago, Citadel said:

Chas, reading your thread am so impressed by the jigs you are using.  Do my spraying in the outside workshop and today decided my first attempt at the body of a 14’ 6” LNWR horse box needed a bit of encouragement on the drying front.  Turned on the hairdryer and promptly blew it off the workbench and onto the floor (did I mention I had a lot to learn....)

Thanks Mike; the main stand I'm using - the one the loco body has been living on for a considerable time during the build - is taken from Ian Rathbone's book "Painting and Lining"; it's his own design which he details in the book, so I can only take credit for making my own copy of it and I'm not the first to do that - I saw another modeller's version on a thread somewhere recently. I combined it with the small vice that has the ball and socket mounting though, which allows secure and safe positioning of pretty much any chassis or body at pretty much any angle - so no hairdryer incidents: very sorry to hear about that!

[Jol Wilkinson]

21 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

Thanks Mike; the main stand I'm using - the one the loco body has been living on for a considerable time during the build - is taken from Ian Rathbone's book "Painting and Lining"; it's his own design which he details in the book, so I can only take credit for making my own copy of it and I'm not the first to do that - I saw another modeller's version on a thread somewhere recently. I combined it with the small vice that has the ball and socket mounting though, which allows secure and safe positioning of pretty much any chassis or body at pretty much any angle - so no hairdryer incidents: very sorry to hear about that!

Chas,

 

that may have been the topic on removing the smokebox door on a LNWR A Class.

 

The vice was a Panavise which has a ball pivot for the vice head and can be fitted to a variety of mounts (screw-down, vacuum, etc.).  Other makes are available. It looks like an excellent bit of kit so I shall be looking out for the version with the screw clamp fitting.

 

Jol

[Chas Levin]

Hello Jol, yes, excellent indeed: you can position what you're working on at a firm 45 degree angle in front of you for instance, like a drawing board (not sure that's the right term, but I mean the sort of thing an architect would work on). You can also position things upside-down or vertically - brilliant for doing buffer or drag beams!

[Portchullin Tatty]

Mike

 

With regard to radial underframes, you might want to take a look at this other forum thread, as someone has just done it in 7mm.

 

https://www.westernthunder.co.uk/threads/genghiss-7mm-workbench.4475/page-14

 

 

[Citadel]

Still working through the radial under frame logistics, many thanks for the helpful leads.  In the meantime have got a little distracted by clearing the decks and finishing a few 6 wheel 30' 1" carriages I've had on the go for a while.  Originally bought them thinking 'am sure can make them look a little more like the ones from the 1870/80's' but sense prevailed and just built them as per the prototype.  So firstly not sure what the collective noun is for Cleminson Underframes but certainly now have a fair old collection in front of me....

 

 

Then there's the therapeutic qualities of painting and lining.  Think I've messed up a little on the droplights, looking at photos suspect there's supposed to be a thin line of the spilled milk between the venetian red and the yellow lining - sense a bit late now .  Still the plum lining to do, will tidy up any errors on the yellow lines when I do this. 

 

 

 

Started on the 42' bodies, have been through a number of iterations around how to produce a tumblehome (bending it around top of a piece of skirting board etc.) but then read the instructions that came with the kit and used the 'rolling a metal rod with thumb pressure on the reverse of the half etched area against a firm but pliable backing' technique.  Worked really well - I'm sold (but open to other suggestions)  

 

 

And as a nice bonus two fresh sets of LNWR transfers arrived from the HMRS so all set - watch this space....

Edited April 1, 2022 by Citadel

[Chas Levin]

Looking good Mike - that's exactly the type of foam I've used, as it seems to be a good midpoint between the really squashy and the very hard.

[Citadel]

Buy an Antex soldering station, get a tumblehome forming mat for free...

Edited February 25, 2022 by Citadel

[Compound2632]

On 14/02/2022 at 21:11, Citadel said:

 

Sorry coming to this a bit late. that's a lovely clean build. mine has got a bit stuck trying to get the cast axlebox / spring units to fit - how did you get on with that?

[Citadel]

I share the pain Compound.  How are you supposed to get the rocking W iron thingy to work when there is no clearance between the axle box/spring and the footboards/solebar.  I ended up wimping out and packing the rocking part with plasticard shim to essentially make it rigid.  Did recently buy some of Bill Bedford's W irons which are fixed to the chassis and have internal springing via piano wire, do wonder whether I could have used these instead of the system supplied with the kit if compensation/springing was felt to be necessary

 

 

Have to admit I'm new to this though, interested in the views of those with more experience....  

 

As an aside one of the main reason I chose Carlisle is so I could have something crimson on my layout as well.  1880's/90's, anything you know of that would be prototypical for the Settle/Carlisle at that time.  Was perusing the Midland Railway Study Centre website, very impressive - can you point me in the right direction?  Those 12 wheel Clayton composite carriages are something special, did they make it as far North as Carlisle? 

Edited April 1, 2022 by Citadel

[Portchullin Tatty]

1 hour ago, Citadel said:

Have to admit I'm new to this though, interested in the views of those with more experience....  

 

Those 12 wheel Clayton composite carriages are something special, did they make it as far North as Carlisle? 

 

Hi Mike

 

Once you have got used to the Bill Bedford springing units you will find that you automatically ditch compensation even where it is built into the kit.  They do work better in most confined underframes and don't have the big cut you have to form with compensation to allow for their movement.  I also find the movement of a vehicle that has springing more realistic.  So definitely give them a go.

 

And yes, the Settle to Carlise was the MR's main line and they will have used their premier stock on the principal trains.  So if what you are describing are in period, they would go through Carlise.

 

And they make truly magnificent models if done well.  If you allow the photos on this link scroll through you will find Rodney Cooper has built a couple (and he is handy at coach building!) https://www.rocarmodelcarriages.co.uk/modeltraincarriages/railway-companies/london-midland-and-scottish-railway/

 

 

[Compound2632]

5 hours ago, Citadel said:

As an aside one of the main reason I chose Carlisle is so I could have something crimson on my layout as well.  1880's/90's, anything you know of that would be prototypical for the Settle/Carlisle at that time.  Was perusing the Midland Railway Study Centre website, very impressive - can you point me in the right direction?  Those 12 wheel Clayton composite carriages are something special, did they make it as far North as Carlisle? 

 

Ah, now you've got me on a topic I have been researching - composition of the Scotch Expresses. I have extensive notes towards articles for the Midland Railway Society Journal. In brief, up to about the mid-80s the "typical" composition for the main day and night trains was a more-or-less symmetrical arrangement of Edinburgh and Glasgow portions with a pair of Pullman Cars in the middle - Parlour or Sleeping according to the time of day - flanked by a pair of 12-wheelers, then other carriages, and a 4-wheel brake at each end. Up to the introduction of the Midland Scotch Joint Stock in 1879, the 12-wheelers were the clerestory ones built by Ashburys and Metropolitan in 1875/6 and the "other" carriages could include not only Midland 6-wheel centre-luggage composites but also NBR or G&SWR stock. The formation of the MSJS introduced a rather more uniform appearance, with non-clerestory 12-wheelers but also 40 ft bogie composites. 

 

The trains divided at Skipton (later Hellifield), attaching through carriages from Manchester and Liverpool via Blackburn. 

 

From a locomotive point of view, you're in clover. Not only Johnson 2-4-0s but also his rebuilds of the Kirtley 800 Class, handing over to a Stirling 6 Class 4-4-0 for Glasgow or a Drummond 476 Class 4-4-0 for Edinburgh. Both absolute classic locomotives.

 

I could go on but this isn't the place.

[Citadel]

Many thanks Compound, certainly food for thought - what a sight that must have been.

 

LNWR coaching stock livery, the gift that just keeps on giving.... In the earlier post mentioned how I thought I'd messed up the border between the Venetian Red droplights and the plum/yellow lining - and then said it's a bit late now....  Well my conscience finally got the better of me and I redid it - looking at the photo below in L&NWR Liveries by the HMRS it just kept jumping out at me.

 

 

 

Wouldn't fancy painting 827 of them, let alone doing the glazing / seats / grab handles etc. etc.  Did learn though if I did the outline of the droplights/bolection mouldings with a Rotring containing mix of red/black ink the subsequent infill with acrylic paint tended to follow it really well (there's a degree of reticulation back from the spilled milk which was enamel - surface tension being my friend for once...)

 

The whole white droplight surround thing got me thinking about the impact that posting on RMWeb is having on my modelling.  There's such a high standard on display so keep striving to get better,  Flipside is that at the end of the day need to deliver what is quite an ambitious layout idea.  Guess a lot of you reading through this have the same dilemma - imagine we all find the right level of compromise eventually.

 

But now I've noticed those white lines round the doors.... And the pattern in the frosted glass on the lavatory window of the Picnic Saloon I'm building.  And should there be window blinds or aren't they really visible.  Aargh!   I'll be working in P4 next....

Edited April 1, 2022 by Citadel

[WFPettigrew]

Are they white lines, or just light reflecting off the bead/edge of the join?

 

You seem to be pushing the limits of what is possible in 4mm already, it's amazing what you're achieving. 

 

All the best

 

Neil 

[Penlan]

For the Toilet Glass I used Magi-Tape* on the inside of my glass** with a bit of fine pencil marking to give a (rough) representation of the etchings.
* I think it's called Magi-Tape, standard stuff available from most stationers.
** I have used Microscope slip glass for most of my windows, I think it's around 5 thou thick, but other materials are available - usual disclaimer etc., I used this because:
1. the reflection is flat,

2. it's thin enough there's no double reflection from the glass (front & back faces).
I cut it with a diamond tipped marker I had from a Vets some 50+ years ago........

Edited February 28, 2022 by Penlan

[Citadel]

Now I’m intrigued, which animal do you mark with a diamond tipped pen?  =^..^=  Seriously though had read about the tape idea, was just a bit worried about whether it lasted or whether after a few years it deteriorated.  Also thought about my ink-jet printer on clear acetate or sanding the inside surface with fine grade abrasive followed by repersentation of the clearer areas with gloss varnish.  Will give the tape a go.

 

WFP, many thanks for the kind words.  Think I am cracking painting and lining but just wait for my interpretation of working Joy valve gear or a compensated chassis - that’s where think uninformed optimism will start to unravel.  To be honest though the answers are all here if I look, really appreciate the advice and support!

[Chas Levin]

3 hours ago, Citadel said:

The whole white droplight surround thing got me thinking about the impact that posting on RMWeb is having on my modelling.  There's such a high standard on display so keep striving to get better,  Flipside is that at the end of the day need to deliver what is quite an ambitious layout idea.  Guess a lot of you reading through this have the same dilemma - imagine we all find the right level of compromise eventually.

 

But now I've noticed those white lines round the doors.... And the pattern in the frosted glass on the lavatory window of the Picnic Saloon I'm building.  And should there be window blinds or aren't they really visible.  Aargh!   I'll be working in P4 next....

Beautiful work and I'm certainy familiar with that feeling when you think you've decided to live with something but it keeps jumping out at you and you go back and re-do it. I think it's a great feeling - you feel like you've 'done the right thing'.

Fully agree too about the dilemma of posting on here: your standards rise exponentially but there's also pressure to deliver - I think the two are interlinked and if it produces better modelling and we enjoy it, why not?

[Portchullin Tatty]

The top dollar way of doing etched toilet windows is to get some laser engraved.

 

These were done for a friend by York Modelmaking and are 4mm scale; they are Highland and it is a thistle emblem to the centre.

 

 

[Citadel]

Oooh!  Assume that’s thin clear acrylic sheet.  Definitely something to bear in mind, assume once the setup done a lifetimes supply relatively straightforward.  Do like laser engraving, have experience with work

[Coal Tank]

Hi Mike 

       Your work is excellent and your models are very, very nice indeed. 

John 

[Jol Wilkinson]

11 hours ago, WFPettigrew said:

Are they white lines, or just light reflecting off the bead/edge of the join?

 

You seem to be pushing the limits of what is possible in 4mm already, it's amazing what you're achieving. 

 

All the best

 

Neil 

 

IIRC the LNWR Liveries book makes no mention of white lining on carriages, other than the line along the very bottom of the carriage side below the ochre/gold line. That is visible to the left of Plate 95 in the photo above.  I can't recall ever seeing that reproduced on a 4mm model (yet).

 

The most likely reliable source of information might be the LNWR Picnic Saloon Trust who are restoring the Picnic Saloon at the Buckinghamshire Railway Centre. This had been thoroughly and  carefully stripped of the later coats of paint to expose the original LNWR colours when I saw it undergoing restoration in 2010.

 

With regard to etched toilet windows, the LNWR Society have just had one donated. It might be possible to scan or photograph this (possibly more easily than one fitted to a preserved carriage) for reproduction in model form.

[Penlan]

1 hour ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

..... With regard to etched toilet windows, the LNWR Society have just had one donated. 

At a meeting in Letchworth in the late 1980's, I handed over an Etched Glass Toilet Window in it's frame to the Society, together with some remains of the ceiling paintwork/plaster and various photo's, coach details and it's story of how it ended up in that field by the M50 - No I didn't keep copies.
The coach had been bought by the farmer in the 1920's for a Shepard to live in.  It was in a very sorry state by the mid 1980's.

[Citadel]

Once again really appreciate the comments and ideas!

 

Firstly the white lines.  Looking through L&NWR liveries it says 'the doors themselves had a 3/4" white line along the top edge and on both sides down to waist level only'.  I can now see this on the picture below (crop from NRM photo, Plate 91 in L&NWR liveries) - anything below the waist level was just a reflection as you say WFP.  Wasn't really clear when this practice ceased or whether it endured right through to the grouping.  Sense I'll be giving this a miss though.... 

 

 

 

For the lavatory window I'm really sold on giving the laser etching idea a go via York Modelmaking, they are just so distinctive   If there is a better quality photo available would be much appreciated (photo above is from early 1890's).  

 

But now I'm getting distracted by those lovely blinds in the First Class windows....

 

 

Edited April 1, 2022 by Citadel

[Portchullin Tatty]

20 hours ago, Citadel said:

Oooh!  Assume that’s thin clear acrylic sheet.  Definitely something to bear in mind, assume once the setup done a lifetimes supply relatively straightforward.  Do like laser engraving, have experience with work

 

Yes it is thin acrylic sheet.

 

And yes, once the artwork is set up the marginal cost is quite low.

 

 

Mark