Citadel's Workbench - Carlisle in late Victorian times

[Chas Levin]

Couldn't you trim away under or at the side of the table Mike, in a way that wouldn't be visible, so it would fit? Or trim or file down their skirts in such a way that the table would fit?

 

Also, how are you making the sofas - is that clay, with something like a bradawl pushed into it? They're so convincing looking!

[Citadel]

To be honest wasn’t really that stressed out as it meant I could finish the carriage without having to make the rest of the spread.  Don’t worry, Peppa will be making a reappearance in the D84 🙂

Edited April 15, 2022 by Citadel

[Citadel]

Oh the sofas seat cushions are DAS modelling clay squashed between two layers of plasticard then prodded with the pointy end of a barbecue skewer.  It’s therapeutic but have a fair few to make so was thinking about investigating using a shallow resin cast.  Do use a brown wash on top of the red to bring out the texture

[Penlan]

14 hours ago, Citadel said:

.... and had underestimated how voluminous (and inflexible) their skirts were.  

Stephen's has expressed a certain viewpoint on this,
I was tempted towards another, but being a Gentleman, I couldn't possibly say it 😇

 

Edited April 15, 2022 by Penlan

[Compound2632]

49 minutes ago, Penlan said:

I was tempted towards another, but being a Gentleman, I couldn't possibly say it 😇

 

Just lace them in tighter...

[Citadel]

Right, trying to focus now on a layout idea that has been evolving over the past few months - a flavour of Carlisle Citadel Station in the 1890's.  The colours must have been amazing if you factor in all the operating companies.  With this in mind have renamed the thread and got stuck into some WCJS 42' carriages.

 

Firstly paying homage to the beautiful photo on page 96 - A Register of West Coast Joint Stock.  I'd have been arriving at the station 30 mins early to try and get a seat in the First Class half compartment at the right hand end....

 

 

Then the Dia 21A 4 Compartment Third Class Brake

 

 

And finally the Dia 29 4 Compartment Composite Lavatory Brake

 

 

All from LRM kits.  Still need handles followed up by a tidying up of the lining.  Then satin varnish, glazing and interior.  When I get my finger out will look to build some radial under frames but in the meantime used the later bogie based ones that come with the kits.  Inspired by threads elsewhere think will try some lighting units which will be a first for me, thanks to everyone who has posted on this subject, will certainly be taking your advice.

 

Colonel Cholmondley will be happy that the Invalid Saloon is making progress , still haven't amputated his arms yet to make him fit under the bedsheets though...

 

 

Still prone to being distracted though - couldn't resist having a bash at the 45' Family Saloon, just sneaks in to the time period.  Bit apprehensive about the roof, bit of a test for my woodworking skills....

 

 

By way of a change have also just started something crimson lake - makes a bit of a change from that fiendish (but beautiful) LNWR livery.  Watch this space....

[Coal Tank]

Beautiful, Beautiful work 

John 

[Jol Wilkinson]

Mike,

 

excellent models.

 

As far as I know the only LNWR radial underframes for the 42ft carriages were produced my Microrail (no long defunct) as part of their carriage kits. They had inside bearing "bogies" with etched axle supports/bearings. The kits pop up very occasionally on Ebay.

 

The 45ft Family Saloon roof isn't difficult, the etched profile guide in the kit will help considerably. I did the roof on the test build with a circular flat sanding disc in a Minicraft drill.

 

[Citadel]

John, many thanks for the kind comments.  Think am getting there with the painting/lining.  The fact you can keep going back to it making iterative improvements helps, taking a photo for RMWeb and blowing it up is pretty brutal really!  
 

Looking forward to doing something from the other companies - Midland, G&SWR, Maryport & Carlisle, Caledonian, North British and North Eastern - what a sight Carlisle must have been pre-grouping.  
 

Having to admit struggling a little to know where to start finding coaching stock from this period & location from these other companies (short of scratchbuilding).  Any suggestions welcome.  
 

Jol, that just brings me to a resounding thank you to yourself, John Redrup and all your other collaborators, the modeller of the L&NWR is truly spoiled.

Edited May 1, 2022 by Citadel

[Chas Levin]

Lovely work Mike, and your rate of production is very impressive - have you also made a team of 4mm carriage builders and painters and somehow animated them to help you build all these carriages? 🧍🧍‍♂️🔨🪚

[Citadel]

Thanks Chaz, Mrs Citadel would concur that I do indeed spend far too much time in the garage and am neglecting other important jobs like worming the cat etc.

 

Reading your thread do envy your methodical and scientific approach though, something to aspire to…

[phil_sutters]

On 30/04/2022 at 21:38, Citadel said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Colonel Cholmondley will be happy that the Invalid Saloon is making progress , still haven't amputated his arms yet to make him fit under the bedsheets though...

 

.

You might find that you don't need to add to the Colonel's injuries  - https://scale3d.co.uk/collections/total-war-1915/products/am002-ww1-soldiers-injured

[Citadel]

Got a little bored of glazing, is there an easy way to do this?   Chas, did try to find the animated team of 4mm carriage builders and painters but as usual they were in hiding so ended up doing it myself....

 

One thing it did give me the incentive to follow up on was radial underframes and refreshing myself on Adobe Illustrator.  It's not per se a CAD package like Corel Draw but actually pretty flexible - key benefit for me is already have the software on my Mac.  Here's tonight's dabbling, obviously need to lay it out as a full sheet with the correct number of each component, tabs etc.  Also finish the bogie design - was going to do something based on the design Jol shared a couple of months ago (inside framed with springing a la Bill Bedford method)

 

Gave myself three bogie pivot points (will have the same three corresponding ones in the bogie of course) to try and find the best compromise between min radius and buffer locking etc., sense this will be the fun bit.

 

Followed the guidelines in the PPD info sheets re: line widths/clearances etc. (picture above is a .jpg from a screen grab so resolution pretty poor).  One question, when you do a half etch for the inside of a fold is there an optimal width (taking into account the thickness of the material).  As an initial assumption went for the thickness of the material to be etched but now's the time to change this before do too much more work. 

 

Quite exciting, hopefully potentially opens up a whole new world of possibilities :)

Edited May 13, 2022 by Citadel

[Jol Wilkinson]

Mike, I don't think CorelDraw is considered CAD software, it is a vector drawing package. 

 

Andy Walker, who has designed some MR kits for LRM uses Illustrator (his background is in Graphic Design). Either is an ideal  programme for creating 2D artwork for etching or laser cutting and easier to learn (in my experience) than 3D programmes.

 

Material thickness is a good measurement for 90 degree fold lines. There was a good article by Mike Clark (Masohits) in MRJ229 detailing etch parameters.

[Chas Levin]

On 13/05/2022 at 23:42, Citadel said:

Got a little bored of glazing, is there an easy way to do this?   Chas, did try to find the animated team of 4mm carriage builders and painters but as usual they were in hiding so ended up doing it myself....

Is there an animated team of lining painters too please Mike?

[Citadel]

Think they have all down the pub together with the lavatory window crest pixie and the door handle fairies (speaking as someone who has just spent an hour and a half doing six frosted windows).  Looking on the bright side keeps me out of mischief.

 

Am sure the C2 will be worth it - it’s looking great. 🙂

[Chas Levin]

Thanks Mike, as indeed are all the things we build, otherwise we'd stop building them, wouldn't we... nevertheless, a little supernatural help wouldn't go amiss once in a while:

 

"Late that night, a Blue Fairy visits the workshop and brings the model to life, although he remains an etched brass kit. She informs him that if he proves himself brave, truthful, and unselfish, he will become a real locomotive..."

 

[Asterix2012]

3 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

Thanks Mike, as indeed are all the things we build, otherwise we'd stop building them, wouldn't we... nevertheless, a little supernatural help wouldn't go amiss once in a while:

 

"Late that night, a Blue Fairy visits the workshop and brings the model to life, although he remains an etched brass kit. She informs him that if he proves himself brave, truthful, and unselfish, he will become a real locomotive..."

 

Are fairies colour coded?

Would a green fairy sort out the static grass?

 

[Chas Levin]

No idea why Pinocchio had a Blue one, but I'd suggest that pre-Grouping companies would have had their own versions - a Crimson Lake one for the LMS, Doncaster Green for the GNR and so forth...

 

Static grass would depend on the time of year - bright green for spring, yellow-brown for summer!

[Citadel]

It seems to have been a while but finally finished the first of the WCJS 42' carriages

 

 

As usual seemed to spend ages faffing about with the interior detail, lavatory windows etc..  Also one day I'm going to learn how to stick a plasticard roof on properly... Currently use superglue but when the roof is needing to be forced into more of a curve it doesn't tend to grab so every time I push one bit down another tends to pop up.  What's the preferred approach - contact adhesive?

 

 

One of the main reasons took a little longer than expected is that got distracted with a couple of Slaters MR 6 wheel carriages from a brief foray into kit building over 25 year ago.  At the time was having a bad experience with varnish and despite all the time they had languished in a box the surface was still tacky to the touch.  Having spent nearly an hour picking off the pieces of fluff gave the lining a quick tart up and revarnished.

 

 

 

OK, pretty sure would have never been anywhere near Carlisle but at least it extends my colour palette.  The kits seem really good with some amazing detail and cast brass components, did I hear that there was going to be a re-release of their 4mm carriages?  The one thing that seemed absolutely awful is the chassis design, can't really see how to make it move freely and suspect destined for the bin....

 

 

Unfortunately no fairies or pixies of any hue have emerged to help(!)

 

 

Edited June 2, 2022 by Citadel

[Jol Wilkinson]

Mike,

 

it's a Cleminson chassis (although perhaps not as sophisticated ar the LRM LNWR version).

 

Wide washers/rubbing plates at the two mounting points might and a rubbing plate above the tab at the L/H end might help.

 

If that doesn't work, it might be worth considering replacing it with the Brassmasters' version

 

Jol

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

7 hours ago, Citadel said:

OK, pretty sure would have never been anywhere near Carlisle but at least it extends my colour palette. 

 

The composite certainly would have - there were some in the MSJS but also I'm sure MR ones would have been seen at Carlisle too. The third brake is less likely - they were mostly used in local sets, probably the nearest to Carlisle would be the Leeds / Bradford area, as far as Skipton and the Otley / Ilkley services. Yours has the post-1905 class numbers on the door. I'm sorry to have to tell you that the 6-wheelers don't appear to have got MIDLAND in the eves panel, they kept the MR lettering in the waist. 

 

For your composite, the number should be in the waist twice, below the panel between the third and first class compartments, with M centrally in the waist panel to the left of the luggage doors and R ditto in the panel to the right of the doors.

 

Also, for your period, the solebar should be lined out and the headstocks and buffer guides red and lined out. The preserved example at the NRM is a good guide, though its number 901 is spurious.

 

I only indulge in this pedantry because the lining out is of such exceptional quality it seems a shame not to get the rest right. You wouldn't like to line some out for me, would you?

[Citadel]

Compound, really appreciate the info above.  I’ll plead in my defence that it was 25 years ago and I was young and impetuous!  For sure you’ve now whet my appetite re: MR carriage livery and I’ll have a go at rectifying the situation.  I’ll start by making the composite a composite…. assume it should be 3/1/L/1/3 (aargh, I really was having a bad day!)

 

Have to admit lining out carriages is my favourite bit (well, after lavatory windows and buttoned seatbacks maybe).  Find it oddly satisfying and gradually getting quicker - but then I look at the work of the pros and am just blown away by the quality.  
 

Jol, thanks for the comments, will have a go at adapting the Slaters under frame and see how it goes.

Edited June 2, 2022 by Citadel

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, Citadel said:

 I’ll start by making the composite a composite…. assume it should be 3/1/L/1/3 

 

Ah, I missed that, yes, the firsts are nearest the middle of the carriage, where you'd get the smoothest ride.

 

This is one of the pair built a bit narrower than standard, part of a batch of seven carriages built for services into Leicester west Bridge through the narrow Glenfield tunnel, but in terms of livery, it's typical, though having the armorial device on the first class doors was the earlier style; by the 1890s they would be below the number, where you've got them on your model:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC item 64263.]

 

Known numbers for the composites are: 488, 877, 3397, 3447, 3451, 3540, 3674, 3648, 3701, 3705, 3706, 3712. The 4-digit numbers are, I think, their numbers when moved onto the duplicate list, so omit the leading 3 for their original numbers. They were built in two lots of 100 in 1884-6 and were replacements for the last-surviving composites from Matthew Kirtley's day. 

 

The Midland Scotch Joint Stock version came first, 25 being built by the G&SWR at Kilmarnock in 1883, although the design is of course pure Midland; they were numbered 31-55. The layout of the lettering was different; I suspect a reluctance to break up the initials M.S.J.S.:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC item 64395.]

 

For completeness, the thirds had the same layout of lettering as the composites, with M and R centrally in the waist panels either side of the centre door, but no armorial device:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC item 64350.]

 

Some brake thirds were treated the same way; this is another of the West Bridge set:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC item 64265.]

 

Others had a different arrangement:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC item 64353.]

 

This style, with M.R on a central panel, was used on carriages with no door near the centre-line, such as the lavatory thirds built in 1889-1892:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC item 64264.]

 

Ref. R.E. Lacy & G. Dow, Midland Railway Carriages (Wild Swan, 1986, 2 vols.)

 

I'm fairly sure that not all the official portraits of carriages of the 1880s and 90s show them in brand-new condition. studying the trees that appear in the background of many of them, i've come to the conclusion that there must have been several "photography days" - at different times of year - when a selection of carriages were shunted in front of the camera one after another.

 

[Mikkel]

10 hours ago, Citadel said:

It seems to have been a while but finally finished the first of the WCJS 42' carriages

 

 

As usual seemed to spend ages faffing about with the interior detail, lavatory windows etc..  Also one day I'm going to learn how to stick a plasticard roof on properly... Currently use superglue but when the roof is needing to be forced into more of a curve it doesn't tend to grab so every time I push one bit down another tends to pop up.  What's the preferred approach - contact adhesive?

 

 

 

 

Beautiful, both the model and prototype. I assume also the women inside!

 

Roof problems or not, you must be very happy with these.

 

PS: Have you considered small magnets for the roof? I've recently tried it with success, inspired by Dave's work. See his sketch in the comments here: 

 

 

Edited June 2, 2022 by Mikkel