RMweb Premium Chas Levin Posted June 3, 2022 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 3, 2022 More beautiful carriages, lovely to look at! For plastic roofs I've found the key place to start is making the curvature conform to - or exceed - that of the carriage ends (and/or internal divisions) and I've spent quite a bit of time with various ones, taping or bandaging them to suitably sized bottles or pans and immersing them in boiling water - well, you probably know all this but my point is that once you have the same radius curve on both carriage and roof, you're no longer asking whatever fixing method you use to do anywhere near as much work. That being said, I still worry about the plastic curling up with age, so the other thing I do is to make thick, sturdy ribs from something like 2mm x 2mm square section plastic strut, which I also conform to the roof radius. These are then fixed - using Liquid Poly or a similar, which actually welds the two together - to the underside of the roof, in positions where they can also be used for additional fixings, for instance up alongside internal compartment dividers. 21 hours ago, Mikkel said: Roof problems or not, you must be very happy with these. PS: Have you considered small magnets for the roof? I've recently tried it with success, inspired by Dave's work... Then, as Mikkel suggests, tiny neodymium magnets can be super-glued into matching holes made in the plastic struts to line up with others fixed to the compartment dividers... 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Portchullin Tatty Posted June 3, 2022 Share Posted June 3, 2022 My preference for roofs is to make them from metal sheet and to secure them to the body with screws. These are either secured to tongues that come down from the roof to the floor level or you can make long screws like the good old Hornby stuff from the 1970s or, if you do not need a floor (for full brakes) then you can come up with an arrangement at the top of the sides. On the basis that pictures are worth a thousand words, take a look at my blog: https://highlandmiscellany.com/2018/10/27/midland-six-wheeled-full-brakes-part-1/ https://highlandmiscellany.com/2020/12/31/what-did-you-during-the-war-grandad/ 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard i Posted June 4, 2022 Share Posted June 4, 2022 Or make from solid plastic and file to shape. or make a former from word and bend metal sheet to shape over them. if you make the carriage separate at the solebars then short screws can be used to joint the roof tow cross piece and the interior can continue to be fitted. richard 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted June 4, 2022 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 4, 2022 If your roof is a flat sheet of plasticard, the hot water method works a treat: The plasticard roof is firmly taped, using a low-tack tape, to a bottle or jar of the appropriate diameter (2.5" for most carriage roofs). The jar is placed in a vessel of larger diameter; both jar and vessel are then filled with water that is just off boiling. Leave to stand for five to ten minutes. Avoid attempting this in the orientation shown as the hot water will flow out. The difficulty is finding a former of the right diameter. In the example shown, I'm forming a roof for a 25 ft van; a Tesco olive jar is just right for this and it's a snug fit in the cafetiere. For longer roofs, one wants a wine bottle; most are 3" diameter but I was provided with an empty bottle of 2.5" diameter, of which I regret to say I have made insufficient use, but is good for roofs up to 44 ft long. There is the danger that the plasticard doesn't curve exactly to the bottle diameter at the edges, where it is taped down. One way round this is to curve a piece of plasticard of larger width then needed, and then trim off the edges. This all works well for 4 mm scale and could, I think, be adapted for smaller scales but might be tricky for larger scales. 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Asterix2012 Posted June 4, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 4, 2022 12 minutes ago, Compound2632 said: If your roof is a flat sheet of plasticard, the hot water method works a treat: The plasticard roof is firmly taped, using a low-tack tape, to a bottle or jar of the appropriate diameter (2.5" for most carriage roofs). The jar is placed in a vessel of larger diameter; both jar and vessel are then filled with water that is just off boiling. Leave to stand for five to ten minutes. Avoid attempting this in the orientation shown as the hot water will flow out. The difficulty is finding a former of the right diameter. In the example shown, I'm forming a roof for a 25 ft van; a Tesco olive jar is just right for this and it's a snug fit in the cafetiere. For longer roofs, one wants a wine bottle; most are 3" diameter but I was provided with an empty bottle of 2.5" diameter, of which I regret to say I have made insufficient use, but is good for roofs up to 44 ft long. There is the danger that the plasticard doesn't curve exactly to the bottle diameter at the edges, where it is taped down. One way round this is to curve a piece of plasticard of larger width then needed, and then trim off the edges. This all works well for 4 mm scale and could, I think, be adapted for smaller scales but might be tricky for larger scales. Maybe you just need a bigger bottle 3 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulaDoesTrains Posted June 4, 2022 Share Posted June 4, 2022 10 hours ago, Asterix2012 said: Maybe you just need a bigger bottle 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Citadel Posted June 4, 2022 Author Popular Post Share Posted June 4, 2022 Firstly thank you so much for all the comments, seeing the lining on the NRM MR 6 wheel coach under frame is indeed enough to drive you to drink.... I'll do my best. Compound, really appreciate the photos you shared, really sets me off in the right direction - think I have a spot of reference book shopping in the offing. Around roofs some really good advice thank you everyone who commented. Certainly suspect the key is ensuring the roof is formed to the correct curve rather than stressing the adhesive as it dries - will get practising with the wine bottles and hot water. Whilst I'm working with arc roofs can probably cope with plastikard but think will also try to move to a system where the roof is removable - can definitely see the benefits of this. I've got the LRM 45' Picnic Saloon to practice on which uses the wooden moulding so let's see (and have a certain hankering over building one of the initial Bore 42' Sleeping Saloons where again the roof profile isn't quite as straightforward). Anyway, when not getting distracted by Portchullin's / Mikkel's / Dave John's blogs (all inspirational) tonights job was to finish off the WCJS P21A Lavatory Brake Composite (well, almost finishing - just noticed need to fit the lamps and letter the sole bar).... Think that's about one lavatory for every 5 - 6 passengers - beats a Pendolino.... 13 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Citadel Posted June 6, 2022 Author Popular Post Share Posted June 6, 2022 (edited) Fitted the lamps etc. Think makes all the difference.... Also used the Jubilee weekend to finish the P29 Brake 3rd. Looking at photo think I might have forgotten the lettering on the Guard's door - need to find a photo... Also need to find the lamps - suspect I stole the ones from this kit to do the one above. Maybe I'll go through my entire LNWR modelling career one set of lamps short now. Oh well, at least gives me an excuse to buy another kit so I can finish this one… Right, to work rectifying the MR 6 wheel carriages.... Edited June 22, 2022 by Citadel 15 7 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coal Tank Posted June 6, 2022 Share Posted June 6, 2022 They really are beautiful models John 4 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Citadel Posted June 6, 2022 Author Share Posted June 6, 2022 Thank you for the kind comments John. Have to say that your’s aren’t too shabby either 🙂 You think you are getting somewhere then you see the work by Ian Rathbone, Warren Haywood et al. and it rather puts everything into perspective. Was really impressed by the NER Autocoach on Portchullin’s blog and the lining of the 7mm MR NPCS on the Slaters website https://slatersplastikard.com/linePage.php?suffix=JPG&code=7C017 Oh well, just keep learning from mistakes and try to get better…. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coal Tank Posted June 6, 2022 Share Posted June 6, 2022 You do lovely work, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coal Tank Posted June 7, 2022 Share Posted June 7, 2022 Hi, are those two coaches LRM kits? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Citadel Posted June 7, 2022 Author Share Posted June 7, 2022 Yes, they sure are. Building them becoming a little bit second nature now, just started a MR horse box and it’s freaking me out as need to keep reading the instructions! Probably confused matters as The Register of West Coast Joint Stock uses the page numbers in the 1893 diagram book whereas the LRM website uses the 1915 version. P29 corresponds to D354 and P21A corresponds to D227 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Portchullin Tatty Posted June 8, 2022 Share Posted June 8, 2022 On 06/06/2022 at 13:47, Citadel said: Was really impressed by the NER Autocoach on Portchullin’s blog .......... I can't take credit for this, it was painted/lined by Warren Heywood. And if you really want to get salivating, have a look at his website: http://www.modelrailwaypainting.co.uk/ 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Citadel Posted June 17, 2022 Author Share Posted June 17, 2022 Quick update and a couple of questions. Firstly the WCJS Family Saloon. Roof fit is as snug as a bug in a rug and the clerestory etchings have worked very well (still a bit more sanding required to lower the ends of the central section so it lines up). One thing I'm a little unsure about is how the edges sit versus the sides / cantrails. Currently the roof sits on the inside of the carriage side - neat fit but when I spray it there will be a visible line when viewed from above (can't help but feel would give a bit of a drainage problem in real life). Do I need to add micro strip to the roof and create a gutter / slight overhang or should I actually have glued the cantrails to the roof rather than soldered them to the sides? It's certainly going to be a mighty fine carriage though.... Then the MR horse box. Interesting build and a fair bit more involved than I expected (still the brake levers to fit). Used Bill Bedford spung W irons rather than the compensation provided with the kit as otherwise the spring / footstep interface would have posed issues methinks. Compound, I have a lot to learn about MR livery. Ordered MR Carriages Vol 1 by Lacy & Dow on eBay for a tenner (pleased with that) so hopefully a good starting point. This horseboxes is a bit later than my chosen period (1906 onwards) but craved more Midland red - the instructions say black under frame and yellow lining. Photo on the LRM website as follows (red under frame). https://traders.scalefour.org/LondonRoadModels/various/wagons/mhba/ Assume ends red with black beading? Just wondered about the strapping on the centre door - have seen some models where it's painted black edged yellow and some where it's left body colour and just edged yellow - any comments? Really appreciate any advice - it's like learning a new language. Also, is there a reference book you would recommend? 8 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted June 18, 2022 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 18, 2022 7 hours ago, Citadel said: Compound, I have a lot to learn about MR livery. Ordered MR Carriages Vol 1 by Lacy & Dow on eBay for a tenner (pleased with that) so hopefully a good starting point. This horseboxes is a bit later than my chosen period (1906 onwards) but craved more Midland red - the instructions say black under frame and yellow lining. Photo on the LRM website as follows (red under frame). https://traders.scalefour.org/LondonRoadModels/various/wagons/mhba/ Assume ends red with black beading? Just wondered about the strapping on the centre door - have seen some models where it's painted black edged yellow and some where it's left body colour and just edged yellow - any comments? Really appreciate any advice - it's like learning a new language. Also, is there a reference book you would recommend? I'm afraid NPCS is in Lacy & Dow Vol. 2... NCPS was lined in yellow rather than gold from 1892; as Clayton explained to the Directors on the Carriage & Wagon Committee, these vehicles were never washed: [Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC 64202] On vehicles that didn't have passenger style panelling, such as these earlier horseboxes, as far as I can work out there was yellow lining on the edges of the hinges and the door beading etc. but not much black, except possibly on the solebars and headstock ends in the usual way, and ends were plain red; but it is very difficult to be sure from photographs where red and black are indistinguishable: [Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC 64203] Midland Style is coy on this; if George Dow and Ralph Lacy didn't know... Unfortunately there are no surviving official portraits of later horseboxes of the type you are building. This type of horsebox has passenger-style panelling for the groom's and luggage compartments, so presumably these were lined out passenger-style. There is an official photo of the one-off combined horsebox and CCT built in 1906: [Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC 64166] There are good versions of all these photos in Lacy & Dow Vol. 2, where one can see that vertical edge of the beading of the passenger panelling is lined yellow where it meets the horsebox part, suggesting that all that including the framing is red. The hinges are lined out but again it's unclear if the ironwork is black (as on the LRM website model). The CCT end is plain red, I think, but I suspect that an end with carriage-style panelling would have the beading painted black. By 1906, solebars and headstocks were unlined red; it's described as a brownish-red, which I suspect means fewer coats of crimson lake over the undercoats and less varnish. There is also this photo, of the square-panelled version of the horsebox you are building: [Embedded link to photo on Community Rail Lancashire website] This is good for physical detail but still not much help on livery. Note that on this square-panelled type, the top half of the horsebox door is top-hung as on earlier horseboxes, but on your round-panelled on, the design was changed to a pair of side-hung doors - also on the combined horsebox / CCT. I think that whatever you decide to do, the lining should be subdued. 3 3 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Citadel Posted June 20, 2022 Author Share Posted June 20, 2022 (edited) At last Mr Cholmondley has his Invalid Carriage and can now attend his regimental reunion in Carlisle Interesting prototype, believe only one built to this diagram. Tomorrow is tie-rod Tuesday - realised that I'd omitted them from the bogies of the 42' stock. Did wonder why I appeared to have so much brass rod left over after finishing the kits.... Edited June 22, 2022 by Citadel 7 8 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Mikkel Posted June 21, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 21, 2022 Mr Cholmondley does travel in style! Another extraordinary job. Again I am impressed by the liveries. Am currently experimenting with lining (trying out the Easi-Liner) and it has only increased my respect for your results. Clearly, regardless of the method, hand lining is about practice, practice, practice. And practice. 3 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Chas Levin Posted June 21, 2022 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 21, 2022 (edited) Fully agree with Mikkel, terrific job Mike, with - by my count from the photos - seven different colours! How long does lining a six-wheeler in LNWR livery take you in total? And how long do you you allow each colour to dry before adding others that touch it? Also very much like the look of the WCJS Family Saloon - I have a bit of a thing for clerestory coaches! Is it a London Rd Models kit (apologies if you mentioned that earlier in the thread)? Edited June 21, 2022 by Chas Levin 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Citadel Posted June 21, 2022 Author Share Posted June 21, 2022 (edited) Mikkel / Chas, once again many thanks for the kind comments. As mentioned in the original post on Page 1 of this thread I’m exclusively using Rotring pens for the lining. Once the sides have been sprayed (bottom half plum, top half spilled milk) would judge maybe 2 to 3 hours per carriage but only c. 15 mins at a time. in a way, that’s the beauty of the Rotring, there’s no cleanup so you just put the cap back on and go and do something else for 30 mins. Ink dry in a couple of minutes but usually leave the yellow overnight before adding the central plum line. The Bowpen is king and I kneel to those who wield them, one day I’ll pluck up the courage…. You have total flexibility on width of line, total flexibility on colour, the edges are sharper and the end result is more durable. Biggest enemy with the Rotring is surface tension. The ink is aqueous (assume with surfactants / binders as well) so on a gloss surface the ink tends to bead. I use Phoenix Precision enamels which are actually quite matte in appearance so get away with it but sometimes have to go over the line twice. Case in point here is the Venetian red around the windows, I start by creating a border with the Rotring then flood the interior with acrylic paint. If you zoom in dead close on the first picture in the post above you’ll notice that the border is a bit jaggedy but not really discernible with the naked eye. The other thing you’ll notice on the same photo is that sometimes there is a bit of a print registration issue with the central plum line (basically it’s a bit too wide on occasion). To be honest not really sure that Rotring are really designed for the abuse I hand out to them so generally use 0.18mm nib (the smaller ones are more temperamental). Again though on the real model with the naked eye not really noticeable though. Think I might be facing my Waterloo with the Midland underframe, time will tell…. Right, on with the tie-rods…. Oh, the 45’ Family Saloon is indeed from LRM. I was worried about the roof but actually proved fairly stress free and a really nice contrast to the arc roof stock as you say. Edited June 22, 2022 by Citadel 4 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Chas Levin Posted June 22, 2022 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 22, 2022 23 hours ago, Citadel said: Mikkel / Chas, once again many thanks for the kind comments. As mentioned in the original post on Page 1 of this thread I’m exclusively using Rotring pens for the lining. Once the sides have been sprayed (bottom half plum, top half spilled milk) would judge maybe 2 to 3 hours per carriage but only c. 15 mins at a time. in a way, that’s the beauty of the Rotring, there’s no cleanup so you just put the cap back on and go and do something else for 30 mins. Ink dry in a couple of minutes but usually leave the yellow overnight before adding the central plum line. The Bowpen is king and I kneel to those who wield them, one day I’ll pluck up the courage…. You have total flexibility on width of line, total flexibility on colour, the edges are sharper and the end result is more durable. Biggest enemy with the Rotring is surface tension. The ink is aqueous (assume with surfactants / binders as well) so on a gloss surface the ink tends to bead. I use Phoenix Precision enamels which are actually quite matte in appearance so get away with it but sometimes have to go over the line twice. Case in point here is the Venetian red around the windows, I start by creating a border with the Rotring then flood the interior with acrylic paint. If you zoom in dead close on the first picture in the post above you’ll notice that the border is a bit jaggedy but not really discernible with the naked eye. The other thing you’ll notice on the same photo is that sometimes there is a bit of a print registration issue with the central plum line (basically it’s a bit too wide on occasion). To be honest not really sure that Rotring are really designed for the abuse I hand out to them so generally use 0.18mm nib (the smaller ones are more temperamental). Again though on the real model with the naked eye not really noticeable though. Think I might be facing my Waterloo with the Midland underframe, time will tell…. Right, on with the tie-rods…. Oh, the 45’ Family Saloon is indeed from LRM. I was worried about the roof but actually proved fairly stress free and a really nice contrast to the arc roof stock as you say. Interesting, thanks Mike, I had indeed forgotten that you'd mentioned your methods at the start. I haven't tried the Rotrings yet and I shall do so: I'm always happy to use different tools for different jobs where they're better and I wonder whether there might be a place for both tools - Rotring and ruling pen - at different points in the process... 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Citadel Posted June 27, 2022 Author Popular Post Share Posted June 27, 2022 Have just been dotting the i's and crossing the t's on a few of the 42' WCJS carriages I thought I'd completed a couple of weeks ago. You think you are there and then realise that you've forgotten things like the tierods on the bogies etc. etc. Anyway, one last set of photos... 11 10 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Chas Levin Posted June 28, 2022 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 28, 2022 Nice!!!!!!!!!!! and yes, I know what you mean about spotting other stuff you've missed. I get to a point though where I decide 'enough - that model's now finished' and I don't add stuff, I see it as a 'time capsule' sort of thing, that it's where I was at in modelling terms at that point, where now, if I were to make another one, I'd add this and that. Otherwise, I think I'd have too many detailing enhancement jobs on the go at once! 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Citadel Posted June 28, 2022 Author Share Posted June 28, 2022 Thanks Chas, think the biggest thing that still jumps out at me is the lack of plumbing for the gaslights on the roof - not sure I have the mojo to tackle this though, by that stage usually aching to get on with the next model. Quite like your ‘time-capsule’ logic so will use it on this occasion… Did feel that missing the tie-rods off the bogies required immediate corrective action though. Oops… 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Citadel Posted July 4, 2022 Author Share Posted July 4, 2022 (edited) The monkey of instant gratification has been at work so many many distractions - but getting very excited about the 45' WCJS Family Saloon. It's such a pleasure to have a roof that just lifts off - then can just be replaced with minimal hassle. No more superglue and bad language for me going forward.... A quick question. Looking at the picture at the bottom of page 141 in LNWR Carriages by David Jenkinson the clerestory sides are white (so roof colour). This is what I was planning to do but welcome any other views here.... Edited July 4, 2022 by Citadel 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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