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Citadel's Workbench - Carlisle in late Victorian times


Citadel
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More beautiful carriages, lovely to look at!

 

For plastic roofs I've found the key place to start is making the curvature conform to - or exceed - that of the carriage ends (and/or internal divisions) and I've spent quite a bit of time with various ones, taping or bandaging them to suitably sized bottles or pans and immersing them in boiling water - well, you probably know all this but my point is that once you have the same radius curve on both carriage and roof, you're no longer asking whatever fixing method you use to do anywhere near as much work.

That being said, I still worry about the plastic curling up with age, so the other thing I do is to make thick, sturdy ribs from something like 2mm x 2mm square section plastic strut, which I also conform to the roof radius. These are then fixed - using Liquid Poly or a similar, which actually welds the two together - to the underside of the roof, in positions where they can also be used for additional fixings, for instance up alongside internal compartment dividers.

 

21 hours ago, Mikkel said:

Roof problems or not, you must be very happy with these.

 

PS: Have you considered small magnets for the roof? I've recently tried it with success, inspired by Dave's work...

 

Then, as Mikkel suggests, tiny neodymium magnets can be super-glued into matching holes made in the plastic struts to line up with others fixed to the compartment dividers...

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My preference for roofs is to make them from metal sheet and to secure them to the body with screws.  These are either secured to tongues that come down from the roof to the floor level or you can make long screws like the good old Hornby stuff from the 1970s or, if you do not need a floor

(for full brakes) then you can come up with an arrangement at the top of the sides.

 

On the basis that pictures are worth a thousand words, take a look at my blog:

 

 https://highlandmiscellany.com/2018/10/27/midland-six-wheeled-full-brakes-part-1/

 

https://highlandmiscellany.com/2020/12/31/what-did-you-during-the-war-grandad/

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Or make from solid plastic and file to shape.

or make a former from word and bend metal sheet to shape over them.

if you make the carriage separate at the solebars then short screws can be used to joint the roof tow cross piece and the interior can continue to be fitted.

richard 

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If your roof is a flat sheet of plasticard, the hot water method works a treat:

 

1138232183_MidlandD418roofstep6.JPG.079c0069764774d1c889bfbd1abb2c57.JPG

 

The plasticard roof is firmly taped, using a low-tack tape, to a bottle or jar of the appropriate diameter (2.5" for most carriage roofs). The jar is placed in a vessel of larger diameter; both jar and vessel are then filled with water that is just off boiling. Leave to stand for five to ten minutes.

 

Avoid attempting this in the orientation shown as the hot water will flow out.

 

The difficulty is finding a former of the right diameter. In the example shown, I'm forming a roof for a 25 ft van; a Tesco olive jar is just right for this and it's a snug fit in the cafetiere. For longer roofs, one wants a wine bottle; most are 3" diameter but I was provided with an empty bottle of 2.5" diameter, of which I regret to say I have made insufficient use, but is good for roofs up to 44 ft long.

 

There is the danger that the plasticard doesn't curve exactly to the bottle diameter at the edges, where it is taped down. One way round this is to curve a piece of plasticard of larger width then needed, and then trim off the edges. 

 

This all works well for 4 mm scale and could, I think, be adapted for smaller scales but might be tricky for larger scales.

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12 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

If your roof is a flat sheet of plasticard, the hot water method works a treat:

 

1138232183_MidlandD418roofstep6.JPG.079c0069764774d1c889bfbd1abb2c57.JPG

 

The plasticard roof is firmly taped, using a low-tack tape, to a bottle or jar of the appropriate diameter (2.5" for most carriage roofs). The jar is placed in a vessel of larger diameter; both jar and vessel are then filled with water that is just off boiling. Leave to stand for five to ten minutes.

 

Avoid attempting this in the orientation shown as the hot water will flow out.

 

The difficulty is finding a former of the right diameter. In the example shown, I'm forming a roof for a 25 ft van; a Tesco olive jar is just right for this and it's a snug fit in the cafetiere. For longer roofs, one wants a wine bottle; most are 3" diameter but I was provided with an empty bottle of 2.5" diameter, of which I regret to say I have made insufficient use, but is good for roofs up to 44 ft long.

 

There is the danger that the plasticard doesn't curve exactly to the bottle diameter at the edges, where it is taped down. One way round this is to curve a piece of plasticard of larger width then needed, and then trim off the edges. 

 

This all works well for 4 mm scale and could, I think, be adapted for smaller scales but might be tricky for larger scales.

Maybe you just need a bigger bottle 

 

spacer.png

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Thank you for the kind comments John.  Have to say that your’s aren’t too shabby either 🙂


You think you are getting somewhere then you see the work by Ian Rathbone, Warren Haywood et al. and it rather puts everything into perspective.  Was really impressed by the NER Autocoach on Portchullin’s blog and the lining of the 7mm MR NPCS on the Slaters website 


https://slatersplastikard.com/linePage.php?suffix=JPG&code=7C017

 

Oh well, just keep learning from mistakes and try to get better….

 

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Yes, they sure are.  Building them becoming a little bit second nature now, just started a MR horse box and it’s freaking me out as need to keep reading the instructions!
 

Probably confused matters as The Register of West Coast Joint Stock uses the page numbers in the 1893 diagram book whereas the LRM website uses the 1915 version.  P29 corresponds to D354 and P21A corresponds to D227

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  • 2 weeks later...

Quick update and a couple of questions. 

 

Firstly the WCJS Family Saloon.  Roof fit is as snug as a bug in a rug and the clerestory etchings have worked very well (still a bit more sanding required to lower the ends of the central section so it lines up).  One thing I'm a little unsure about is how the edges sit versus the sides / cantrails.  Currently the roof sits on the inside of the carriage side - neat fit but when I spray it there will be a visible line when viewed from above (can't help but feel would give a bit of a drainage problem in real life).  Do I need to add micro strip to the roof and create a gutter / slight overhang or should I actually have glued the cantrails to the roof rather than soldered them to the sides?  It's certainly going to be a mighty fine carriage though....

 

 1851845623_W13Roof-1.thumb.jpg.68f37df0c21e206829ec45cf192a79a0.jpg

 

Then the MR horse box.  Interesting build and a fair bit more involved than I expected (still the brake levers to fit).  Used Bill Bedford spung W irons rather than the compensation provided with the kit as otherwise the spring / footstep interface would have posed issues methinks.

 

1666369760_MRHorsebox-1.thumb.jpg.b333852378799094d807db2f1a0c7f38.jpg

 

Compound, I have a lot to learn about MR livery.  Ordered MR Carriages Vol 1 by Lacy & Dow on eBay for a tenner (pleased with that) so hopefully a good starting point.  This horseboxes is a bit later than my chosen period (1906 onwards) but craved more Midland red - the instructions say black under frame and yellow lining.  Photo on the LRM website as follows (red under frame).

 

https://traders.scalefour.org/LondonRoadModels/various/wagons/mhba/

 

Assume ends red with black beading?  Just wondered about the strapping on the centre door - have seen some models where it's painted black edged yellow and some where it's left body colour and just edged yellow - any comments?  Really appreciate any advice - it's like learning a new language.  Also, is there a reference book you would recommend?

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7 hours ago, Citadel said:

Compound, I have a lot to learn about MR livery.  Ordered MR Carriages Vol 1 by Lacy & Dow on eBay for a tenner (pleased with that) so hopefully a good starting point.  This horseboxes is a bit later than my chosen period (1906 onwards) but craved more Midland red - the instructions say black under frame and yellow lining.  Photo on the LRM website as follows (red under frame).

 

https://traders.scalefour.org/LondonRoadModels/various/wagons/mhba/

 

Assume ends red with black beading?  Just wondered about the strapping on the centre door - have seen some models where it's painted black edged yellow and some where it's left body colour and just edged yellow - any comments?  Really appreciate any advice - it's like learning a new language.  Also, is there a reference book you would recommend?

 

I'm afraid NPCS is in Lacy & Dow Vol. 2...

 

NCPS was lined in yellow rather than gold from 1892; as Clayton explained to the Directors on the Carriage & Wagon Committee, these vehicles were never washed:

 

64202.jpg

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC 64202]

 

On vehicles that didn't have passenger style panelling, such as these earlier horseboxes, as far as I can work out there was yellow lining on the edges of the hinges and the door beading etc. but not much black, except possibly on the solebars and headstock ends in the usual way, and ends were plain red; but it is very difficult to be sure from photographs where red and black are indistinguishable:

 

64203.jpg

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC 64203]

 

Midland Style is coy on this; if George Dow and Ralph Lacy didn't know...

 

Unfortunately there are no surviving official portraits of later horseboxes of the type you are building. This type of horsebox has passenger-style panelling for the groom's and luggage compartments, so presumably these were lined out passenger-style. There is an official photo of the one-off combined horsebox and CCT built in 1906:

 

64166.jpg

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC 64166]

 

There are good versions of all these photos in Lacy & Dow Vol. 2, where one can see that vertical edge of the beading of the passenger panelling is lined yellow where it meets the horsebox part, suggesting that all that including the framing is red. The hinges are lined out but again it's unclear if the ironwork is black (as on the LRM website model). The CCT end is plain red, I think, but I suspect that an end with carriage-style panelling would have the beading painted black. By 1906, solebars and headstocks were unlined red; it's described as a brownish-red, which I suspect means fewer coats of crimson lake over the undercoats and less varnish.

 

There is also this photo, of the square-panelled version of the horsebox you are building:

 

1900-Midland-Railway-horsebox-beside-the

 

[Embedded link to photo on Community Rail Lancashire website

 

This is good for physical detail but still not much help on livery. Note that on this square-panelled type, the top half of the horsebox door is top-hung as on earlier horseboxes, but on your round-panelled on, the design was changed to a pair of side-hung doors - also on the combined horsebox / CCT.

 

I think that whatever you decide to do, the lining should be subdued.

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At last Mr Cholmondley has his Invalid Carriage and can now attend his regimental reunion in Carlisle

 

1847906908_Invalid3-1.thumb.jpg.b77841a6e9aaff6235f49e51cebe61bb.jpg

 

Interesting prototype, believe only one built to this diagram.  

 

 

492539732_Invalid3-1.thumb.jpg.66510347d3aba7166d3641ce0890c1c8.jpg

 

 

2122477881_Invalid2-1.thumb.jpg.7d65551d6ce8ea828d175e1fcd9fea5d.jpg

 

Tomorrow is tie-rod Tuesday - realised that I'd omitted them from the bogies of the 42' stock.  Did wonder why I appeared to have so much brass rod left over after finishing the kits....

 

Edited by Citadel
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Mr Cholmondley does travel in style!

 

Another extraordinary job. Again I am impressed by the liveries. Am currently experimenting with lining (trying out the Easi-Liner) and it has only increased my respect for your results. Clearly, regardless of the method, hand lining is about practice, practice, practice. And practice. 

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Fully agree with Mikkel, terrific job Mike, with - by my count from the photos - seven different colours! How long does lining a six-wheeler in LNWR livery take you in total? And how long do you you allow each colour to dry before adding others that touch it?

Also very much like the look of the WCJS Family Saloon - I have a bit of a thing for clerestory coaches! Is it a London Rd Models kit (apologies if you mentioned that earlier in the thread)?

Edited by Chas Levin
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Mikkel / Chas, once again many thanks for the kind comments.  As mentioned in the original post on Page 1 of this thread I’m exclusively using Rotring pens for the lining.  Once the sides have been sprayed (bottom half plum, top half spilled milk) would judge maybe 2 to 3 hours per carriage but only c. 15 mins at a time.  in a way, that’s the beauty of the Rotring, there’s no cleanup so you just put the cap back on and go and do something else for 30 mins.  Ink dry in a couple of minutes but usually leave the yellow overnight before adding the central plum line.
 

The Bowpen is king and I kneel to those who wield them, one day I’ll pluck up the courage….  You have total flexibility on width of line, total flexibility on colour, the edges are sharper and the end result is more durable.  
 

Biggest enemy with the Rotring is surface tension.  The ink is aqueous (assume with surfactants / binders as well) so on a gloss surface the ink tends to bead.  I use Phoenix Precision enamels which are actually quite matte in appearance so get away with it but sometimes have to go over the line twice.  Case in point here is the Venetian red around the windows, I start by creating a border with the Rotring then flood the interior with acrylic paint.  If you zoom in dead close on the first picture in the post above you’ll notice that the border is a bit jaggedy but not really discernible with the naked eye.

 

The other thing you’ll notice on the same photo is that sometimes there is a bit of a print registration issue with the central plum line (basically it’s a bit too wide on occasion).  To be honest not really sure that Rotring are really designed for the abuse I hand out to them so generally use 0.18mm nib (the smaller ones are more temperamental).  Again though on the real model with the naked eye not really noticeable though.

 

Think I might be facing my Waterloo with the Midland underframe, time will tell…. Right, on with the tie-rods….

 

Oh, the 45’ Family Saloon is indeed from LRM.  I was worried about the roof but actually proved fairly stress free and a really nice contrast to the arc roof stock as you say.

Edited by Citadel
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23 hours ago, Citadel said:

Mikkel / Chas, once again many thanks for the kind comments.  As mentioned in the original post on Page 1 of this thread I’m exclusively using Rotring pens for the lining.  Once the sides have been sprayed (bottom half plum, top half spilled milk) would judge maybe 2 to 3 hours per carriage but only c. 15 mins at a time.  in a way, that’s the beauty of the Rotring, there’s no cleanup so you just put the cap back on and go and do something else for 30 mins.  Ink dry in a couple of minutes but usually leave the yellow overnight before adding the central plum line.
 

The Bowpen is king and I kneel to those who wield them, one day I’ll pluck up the courage….  You have total flexibility on width of line, total flexibility on colour, the edges are sharper and the end result is more durable.  
 

Biggest enemy with the Rotring is surface tension.  The ink is aqueous (assume with surfactants / binders as well) so on a gloss surface the ink tends to bead.  I use Phoenix Precision enamels which are actually quite matte in appearance so get away with it but sometimes have to go over the line twice.  Case in point here is the Venetian red around the windows, I start by creating a border with the Rotring then flood the interior with acrylic paint.  If you zoom in dead close on the first picture in the post above you’ll notice that the border is a bit jaggedy but not really discernible with the naked eye.

 

The other thing you’ll notice on the same photo is that sometimes there is a bit of a print registration issue with the central plum line (basically it’s a bit too wide on occasion).  To be honest not really sure that Rotring are really designed for the abuse I hand out to them so generally use 0.18mm nib (the smaller ones are more temperamental).  Again though on the real model with the naked eye not really noticeable though.

 

Think I might be facing my Waterloo with the Midland underframe, time will tell…. Right, on with the tie-rods….

 

Oh, the 45’ Family Saloon is indeed from LRM.  I was worried about the roof but actually proved fairly stress free and a really nice contrast to the arc roof stock as you say.

Interesting, thanks Mike, I had indeed forgotten that you'd mentioned your methods at the start.

 

I haven't tried the Rotrings yet and I shall do so: I'm always happy to use different tools for different jobs where they're better and I wonder whether there might be a place for both tools - Rotring and ruling pen - at different points in the process...

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Nice!!!!!!!!!!! and yes, I know what you mean about spotting other stuff you've missed. I get to a point though where I decide 'enough - that model's now finished' and I don't add stuff, I see it as a 'time capsule' sort of thing, that it's where I was at in modelling terms at that point, where now, if I were to make another one, I'd add this and that. Otherwise, I think I'd have too many detailing enhancement jobs on the go at once!

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Thanks Chas, think the biggest thing that still jumps out at me is the lack of plumbing for the gaslights on the roof - not sure I have the mojo to tackle this though, by that stage usually aching to get on with the next model. Quite like your ‘time-capsule’ logic so will use it on this occasion…

 

Did feel that missing the tie-rods off the bogies required immediate corrective action though.  Oops…

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The monkey of instant gratification has been at work so many many distractions - but getting very excited about the 45' WCJS Family Saloon.  It's such a pleasure to have a roof that just lifts off - then can just be replaced with minimal hassle.   No more superglue and bad language for me going forward....

 

1606235889_45ftSaloonRoof-1.thumb.jpg.da493ff343451f7dd120c2a42b9aaed9.jpg

 

A quick question.  Looking at the picture at the bottom of page 141 in LNWR Carriages by David Jenkinson the clerestory sides are white (so roof colour).    This is what I was planning to do but welcome any other views here....

Edited by Citadel
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