A modern London Tram idea...

[roythebus1]

I've been driving rail replacement buses round east London for the last few years and going in and out of Canning Town bus station. the traffic flow for buses is quite complex with 2ways in and 2 ways out. The station is laid out as a central island with 3 lanes all the way round.

 

Now I thought what if..this was to be replaced with tramways. 3 interlaced ovals with the central platfor, the outer circuit for trams on layover, the middel one for trams serving the inner circle stops on the opposite side.

 

Speaking with my friend Tony Hultman of Gothenberg Tramways he reckons the minimum radius a real tram will negotiate is about 8" radius, so the layout would be at least 18" wide. there would be some interesting scissors crossover midway along each circle, were any actually use don real tramways I wonder? Once I've done a few sketches I'll post the basic idea on here. the idea being to use modern European trams maybe using some form of digital control but that stuff isn't my forte. Have a look at Canning town on the google maps satellite view and you'll get an idea of the traffic flows round there.

[Paul H Vigor]

2 minutes ago, roythebus1 said:

I've been driving rail replacement buses round east London for the last few years and going in and out of Canning Town bus station. the traffic flow for buses is quite complex with 2ways in and 2 ways out. The station is laid out as a central island with 3 lanes all the way round.

 

Now I thought what if..this was to be replaced with tramways. 3 interlaced ovals with the central platfor, the outer circuit for trams on layover, the middel one for trams serving the inner circle stops on the opposite side.

 

Speaking with my friend Tony Hultman of Gothenberg Tramways he reckons the minimum radius a real tram will negotiate is about 8" radius, so the layout would be at least 18" wide. there would be some interesting scissors crossover midway along each circle, were any actually use don real tramways I wonder? Once I've done a few sketches I'll post the basic idea on here. the idea being to use modern European trams maybe using some form of digital control but that stuff isn't my forte. Have a look at Canning town on the google maps satellite view and you'll get an idea of the traffic flows round there.

A real tram will negotiate an 8 inch radius curve? That's tight! 

[Edwin_m]

Minimum radius on most modern tramways is 25m or around 1ft at 1:76.  Nottingham goes down to 18m or about 9" and I think there's a curve of about 14m radius in Berlin.  

 

I can't think of any layout such as you describe for Canning Town, but many overseas tramways do have termini on loops.  Sometimes they switch to left hand running via a diamond on the approach, to give cross-platform interchange with buses on the outside of the loop (these are trams with doors on the right only, so the easier option of left hand running for the buses won't work).  Scissors crossings exist on tramways, Wolverhampton St George's being a British example.  

[mcbearuk]

As someone who spent over 25 years 'modelling' tramways at 12ins to the foot scale and was co-editor of the UITP/International Public Transport ''How to design and deliver a tramway'' notebooks maybe I can help;

 

It is claimed that the minimum curve radius for a modern tramway is 25m, that is enshrined in the BOStrassenbahn regulations,,,but that is Germany...elsewhere it is recognised that 17-18m is acceptable for modern articulated cars, with cities like Prague having curves down to 15m.  We are talking standard gauge here, metre gauge trams can manage tighter curves - down to 11m on some Swiss systems and in Lisbon.

 

A very rough rule of thumb is Minimum Radius = track gauge x 11.

 

In the pre WW1 days minimum curves tended to be 45ft for standard gauge and 35ft for narrow gauge.  In the USA they would get some pretty massive interurban cars round 45ft 'corners'!

 

Scissors x overs are used, we have one in the UK at Wolverhampton, I have seen a nmber in E Europe and there is at least one in N America.  

 

The general 'rule' for track layouts is 'If you can imagine it someone. somewhere has built it'

 

Hope this helps

Edited January 30, 2022 by mcbearuk

[roythebus1]

Modern trams will go round 8" radius curves at 1:87 or 1;76. :)....

 

At Canning Town most buses are through services which arrive at one side of the central island then run through the centre lane on the other side to depart. some through service arrive at one end and depart from the other end. I'll have to do that rough sketch with the ideas. Of course just round the corner and over the bridge from the current bus station was the last remaining conduit change pit. I believe it got rescued and is now at Crich.

 

Interesting to learn that the UK minimum curve on the old tramways was around 45' radius. That works out at about 7" radius, but a lot of UK tram modellers use much tighter radii than that. But then it's not much less than the continental minimum.

[ianmianmianm]

Hake a look at some of the integrated trolley/subway stations on the Toronto system.

Bathurst is a good one.

 

[Andy Reichert]

Medium size US steel interurbans are happy on 8" and 10" radius. They even just pass safely on 8"-10" double track curves.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgAMb7DpolE

 

Andy

[kevinlms]

Here's a Grand Junction in operation in Melbourne. Not sure of the radius, but must be tight.

 

 

[spsmiler]

On 13/02/2022 at 22:10, kevinlms said:

Here's a Grand Junction in operation in Melbourne. Not sure of the radius, but must be tight.

 

 

 

ah, Balaclava junction, I was there in 1991...  some of the trams I saw then are still running!

Somewhere on youtube I have a film from here.

[roythebus1]

Having seen the Heaton Park Tramway recently while driving Stagecoach buses for the Park Life music festival, there's a pretty tight curve coming out of the depot onto the main line. 

 

Also, driving through Liege last week took us along the west bank of the river and diversions becuase they're building a new tram system. There's an interesting double junction being installed as well as a scissors crossover. Pity I couldn't stop to get some pictures.

 

 

[wagonbasher]

On 13/02/2022 at 22:10, kevinlms said:

Here's a Grand Junction in operation in Melbourne. Not sure of the radius, but must be tight.

 

 

A great video, do you know what controls the points, there is no little man with a stick.

 

Andy

[Roger.s]

Don't tell the little man with a stick (and a high vis jacket) at 1min 46 sec that he isn't there because he might disappear.

 

Roger

Edited July 5, 2022 by Roger.s

[wagonbasher]

On 05/07/2022 at 10:08, Roger.s said:

Don't tell the little man with a stick (and a high vis jacket) at 1min 46 sec that he isn't there because he might disappear.

 

Roger

Ok, I’ve got him…
 

good to know irs nothing too technical.

 

 

 

Andy