corail coach formation

[bluedepot]

hi everyone

 

i have a 67400 in multiservice livery. ive pre ordered a en voyage one as well. i'm assembling a non specific era 6 corail or intercities train for them - up 6 coaches - so just short. 

 

i currently have 2 x second open (b11tu) carmillon, 1x 1st open (a10rtu) carmillon. all are roco. 

 

are there any particular coaches i should add or should avoid?  I'm not familiar with all the types - other than open and compartment. 

 

it seems like baggage and buffet cars were not common in short trains in era 6 (based on watching youtube videos). Also it seems more common to have open coaches.  What about bicycle space coaches? 

 

is there any significance to red or green doors? 

 

sorry for the amateur question!

 

cheers

 

 

tim 

 

 

[jivebunny]

Hi Tim,

 

Carmillon livery was introduced on Corail stock in 2011, and the doors are all the same purple-pink colour. On the preceding Corail Plus livery, red doors indicated first class and green doors indicated second class.

 

You're right in saying short trains wouldn't have buffet or baggage coaches, but in any case these had all but vanished in the late 90s. Buffets were generally scrapped or converted to other uses such as bike and child areas (which you find on a relatively short train), or even disco coaches! Most baggage vans were converted to driving trailers, either B6Dux in the 70s and 80s or B5uxh in the late 2000s, although a small handful still serve their original purpose, usually during holiday periods. As far as I'm aware neither type has made it into carmillon livery, they're all in regional TER colours.

 

The general "rule" with Corail rakes, regardless of period and even on short trains, is a ratio of one 1st class coach to two or three 2nd class coaches, grouped together by class.

 

I have an early 90s rake made up of one first class, one mixed 1st/2nd, a buffet, two second class and either a 2nd/baggage car or a beautiful 2nd/B6Dux on the end depending on traction or mood!

 

Alan

 

Edited February 1, 2022 by jivebunny

[Gordonwis]

For a epoch VI short train - anything goes really, but the following rule should ideally be followed in this day and age: no more than one 1st class coach; no 'full' baggage or buffet; one (at most) part baggage car. There are fewer inter city Corail trains than there once were, and regional clusters have taken over in areas where the corail stock has not been replaced by units. It is also questionable if Carmillon livery coaches match diesel haulage (which has effectively ended now)

 

A good resource is:

http://www.mlgtraffic.net/SNCF_E_V_VTU.xml

Edited February 1, 2022 by Gordonwis

[bluedepot]

thanks alan and gordon! 

 

nice driving trailer as well alan! 

 

thanks for answering the door colour question! 

 

i have seen videos taken (from a few years ago) where carmillon coaches were in a train hauled by a 67400.  i know a lot of diesel hauled trains are regiolis operated now. I'll maybe get a mix of corail and carmillon coaches, and noted regarding the 1st class ratio! 

 

i'll carry out more 'research' by watching french train videos... 

 

cheers for the help

 

 

tim

[Gordonwis]

6 hours ago, bluedepot said:

thanks alan and gordon! 

 

nice driving trailer as well alan! 

 

thanks for answering the door colour question! 

 

i have seen videos taken (from a few years ago) where carmillon coaches were in a train hauled by a 67400.  i know a lot of diesel hauled trains are regiolis operated now. I'll maybe get a mix of corail and carmillon coaches, and noted regarding the 1st class ratio! 

 

i'll carry out more 'research' by watching french train videos... 

 

cheers for the help

 

 

tim

 

 

The last diesel hauled day Corails were (helpfully for Brits!) Amiens - Boulogne, which I managed to lineside in April and October 2019 (the former was unexpected as I had to drive myself home due to a family hospitalisation in Switzerland!) . The latter was combined with the Boulogne club model railway show  - It seems weird now that we were hairing around linesideing and  then spending the weekend side by side in a model railway show - 2 months later Covid arrived in Europe!

Edited February 2, 2022 by Gordonwis

[Gordonwis]

Can I just check what you are thinking of as Epoch VI, because that technically started in 2005, some time before Carmillon livery took hold.

 

Here's a shot of mine from August 2015 where all the Corail coaches in this Paris - Mulhouse express were in 'Corail+' livery with the Corail Intercites logo.

 

By the way the shot is taken in the unusual 'square concrete' cutting at Baulay (Haute Saone). There is a memorial left and behind where I am standing to a significant resistance action during WWII. The Maquisards used the unusual tightly enclosed cutting as an ideal location to sabotage a train. 

Edited February 3, 2022 by Gordonwis

[bluedepot]

hi gordon

 

i watched a few videos of boulogne trains and some carmillon coaches were in the train. 

 

when did carmillon livery first start to appear? 

 

i dont mind too much about precise era - just after something fairly recent (last ten years or so) for 67400 to haul.  

 

nice shot of 72166.  i don't have a 72000 yet. maybe I'll save up and buy a roco sound model one day. 

 

cheers

 

 

tim 

[jivebunny]

The Carmillon logo appeared in 2005 but corail coaches only started receiving the full livery in the early 2010s. I can vouch for the Roco sound 72000, cracking model and with excellent sounds and perfectly suited to hauling long trains around a layout.

 

Alan

[bluedepot]

hi alan

 

thanks for the info. 

 

i'll start saving up for a roco sound loco...

 

i looked at some pictures on flikr... 

 

here is a 67601 with carmillon coaches (5 in total i think, just one in a different livery) 

 

 

 

67574 and 67676 with 4 in carmillon livery

 

 

 

cheers 

 

 

tim

[Gordonwis]

On 04/02/2022 at 12:30, bluedepot said:

hi gordon

 

i watched a few videos of boulogne trains and some carmillon coaches were in the train. 

 

when did carmillon livery first start to appear? 

 

i dont mind too much about precise era - just after something fairly recent (last ten years or so) for 67400 to haul.  

 

nice shot of 72166.  i don't have a 72000 yet. maybe I'll save up and buy a roco sound model one day. 

 

cheers

 

 

tim 

 

 

Yes, the last two or three times I linesided Boulogne trains there were some Carmillon livery corail, but only in comparatively recently, so on balance 67400 combined with  Carmillon livery Corail coaches represents a fairly short timespan. 

[brushman47544]

On 04/02/2022 at 19:37, bluedepot said:

here is a 67601 with carmillon coaches (5 in total i think, just one in a different livery) 

 

 

The third coach looks like it's in Corail+ livery. You still see mixed livery rakes even now - I've seen photos of current Marseille - Bordeaux electric hauled services still with the odd Corail coach in an earlier livery such as Corail+. How long they'll last in service I don't know - some of the replacement multiple units for TET services have been delayed - but I shall be sad to see them go.

[bluedepot]

hi

 

i notice roco have corail + and intercitiés branded coaches being released soon so i may order a few. 

 

what was corail+?  ive seen the coaches with it on but was this just the branding for services before they went with intercités?

 

 cheers 

 

 

tim

[brushman47544]

38 minutes ago, bluedepot said:

hi

 

i notice roco have corail + and intercitiés branded coaches being released soon so i may order a few. 

 

what was corail+?  ive seen the coaches with it on but was this just the branding for services before they went with intercités?

 

 cheers 

 

 

tim

“Corail Plus” was a scheme to modernise the Corail coaches, launched in 1996, and was complemented by the introduction of the multiservices livery on locomotives. I think the red colour on the doors of 1st class Corail+ coaches was the same red as on the multiservices livery. The now disappeared TEOZ livery was another later attempt by SNCF to improve the coaches for the travelling public for main routes without TGVs, e.g. Paris-Toulouse and Nice-Bordeaux. Intercities is later still and I think was the designation for main line services using locos and coaches at a time when SNCF was only interested in TGVs for long distance services. The French regions were not interested in funding these long distance services, saying it was the government’s role, so a separate funding solution was eventually agreed and the services became known as TET.

[bluedepot]

thanks brushman! good info! 

 

we've not even got started on the various ter livery coaches!

 

 

tim

[Gordonwis]

On 10/02/2022 at 21:42, brushman47544 said:

“Corail Plus” was a scheme to modernise the Corail coaches, launched in 1996, and was complemented by the introduction of the multiservices livery on locomotives. I think the red colour on the doors of 1st class Corail+ coaches was the same red as on the multiservices livery. The now disappeared TEOZ livery was another later attempt by SNCF to improve the coaches for the travelling public for main routes without TGVs, e.g. Paris-Toulouse and Nice-Bordeaux. Intercities is later still and I think was the designation for main line services using locos and coaches at a time when SNCF was only interested in TGVs for long distance services. The French regions were not interested in funding these long distance services, saying it was the government’s role, so a separate funding solution was eventually agreed and the services became known as TET.

 

 

A few amendments / additions to Brushman's information:

 

Corail+ and Multiservices are different things. Only Corail+ relates to coaches. The Multiservices livery on locos was developed from the Corail+ design but is not the same.

 

Corail+ livery is the 'standard' non-regional-TER-specific livery applied to Corail coaches from 1995, ie the two tone grey (silver/grey + dark grey) plus white stripes.  As seen in my earlier 72000 train post

 

Also TET is more or less just a legal name, and encompasses the  Intercites brand, nothing public facing has ever been branded 'TET'.

 

 

[bluedepot]

hi

 

do you think it looks daft having roco and ls models in the same rake? or not much difference really (when viewing from normal distance) 

 

 

cheers 

 

 

tim

[kintbury jon]

I would say no.  There are differences in the brands but they still look fairly similar.

 

This is a train I wanted to replicate which is a short 3 car rake that I travelled on in 2017 from Rochefort to La Rochelle.  The videos focus on the loco but you get the idea.  Rake was a corridor second, open second and a first/second with plug doors.  MS 67400 on the front (which has interestingly become a celebrity as the red has been painted blue in "Isabelle" livery).

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLbHB4l3B_o

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6S3s9mSCFH4

 

So for my representation I have 67445 on the front, a Piko open second, LS 1st/2nd and a Roco corridor second.

 

 

Here is a shot of them side by side. 

 

 

Liveries are much the same with the Piko one having slightly lighter shades of grey but nothing too major.   LS top, Piko middle, Roco bottom.

 

Close up of the door area:

 

 

I will probably replace the Piko 2nd with one of the forthcoming Roco ones as it has the half coloured doors which I believe was only around for a short time.  

 

Here is an internal photo of the LS coach (one set of seating bays was loose so I had to glue it back in!)

 

 

As you can see they are superbly detailed with individual seats, luggage racks and curtains etc.  Are they worth the extra?  Not sure they are actually as when they are whizzing round in a rake you don't really see the insides - particularly as the windows are tinted.

 

Lastly here is a shot of 4 standard liveried Corails showing the differences.  Top Lima, then Piko, followed by older Roco and then most recent Roco at the bottom.

 

The Lima grey is darker than the Roco grey (though not too different).  The windows are a little smaller too.  The Piko Corail is a better model than the Lima one, however the lighter greys noticeably stand out. 

 

The Roco ones both have the same colours.  The most obvious difference between them is the fact that the most recent one has black frames as opposed to silver ones.  

 

Hope that helps!

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 26, 2022 by kintbury jon

[bluedepot]

thanks that is really helpful! 

 

i agree they look fine in mixed up rakes from normal viewing distance!

 

ls - i think the bogies and interiors are a bit better, but that's just looking really really close up!

 

anyway that's useful to know - I'll collect whichever i like! 

 

cheers 

 

 

tim

 

 

ps. i just bought a roco cc 72000 in en voyage livery! dc only but will add sound at a later date / when saved up! 

 

[TTDB]

7 hours ago, kintbury jon said:

 

 

7 hours ago, kintbury jon said:

I would say no.  There are differences in the brands but they still look fairly similar.

 

This is a train I wanted to replicate which is a short 3 car rake that I travelled on in 2017 from Rochefort to La Rochelle.  The videos focus on the loco but you get the idea.  Rake was a corridor second, open second and a first/second with plug doors.  MS 67400 on the front (which has interestingly become a celebrity as the red has been painted blue in "Isabelle" livery).

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLbHB4l3B_o

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6S3s9mSCFH4

 

So for my representation I have 67445 on the front, a Piko open second, LS 1st/2nd and a Roco corridor second.

 

 

Here is a shot of them side by side. 

 

 

Liveries are much the same with the Piko one having slightly lighter shades of grey but nothing too major.   LS top, Piko middle, Roco bottom.

 

Close up of the door area:

 

 

I will probably replace the Piko 2nd with one of the forthcoming Roco ones as it has the half coloured doors which I believe was only around for a short time.  

 

Here is an internal photo of the LS coach (one set of seating bays was loose so I had to glue it back in!)

 

 

As you can see they are superbly detailed with individual seats, luggage racks and curtains etc.  Are they worth the extra?  Not sure they are actually as when they are whizzing round in a rake you don't really see the insides - particularly as the windows are tinted.

 

Lastly here is a shot of 4 standard liveried Corails showing the differences.  Top Lima, then Piko, followed by older Roco and then most recent Roco at the bottom.

 

The Lima grey is darker than the Roco grey (though not too different).  The windows are a little smaller too.  The Piko Corail is a better model than the Lima one, however the lighter greys noticeably stand out. 

 

The Roco ones both have the same colours.  The most obvious difference between them is the fact that the most recent one has black frames as opposed to silver ones.  

 

Hope that helps!

 

 

 

 

 

I remember having some scale

length corals in the 80s can’t remember the manufacturer but it was a small French concern, every seat was individual  took a good evening to build they came all pre painted  just can’t remember the name of the manufacturer, 

Edited February 26, 2022 by TTDB

[TTDB]

45 minutes ago, TTDB said:

 

I remember having some scale

length corals in the 80s can’t remember the manufacturer but it was a small French concern, every seat was individual  took a good evening to build they came all pre painted  just can’t remember the name of the manufacturer, 

 Mougel that was the artisan french manufacturer, just looked there are a couple on eBay uk