De Dion Bouton railcars

[ianp]

Where is the best source of information (printed or online) about the railcars made by the French engineering company De Dion Bouton?

[Nearholmer]

Have you see this?

 

https://www.lalibrairie.com/livres/autorails-de-france-de-dion-bouton-somua-brissonneau-et-lotz-alsthom-autorails-d-origine-allemande-corpet-louvet-remorques-d-autorails-unifiees-vol--5_0-565470_9782915035025.html

 

And

 

https://cheminot-transport.com/amp/2021/08/autorails/automotrices-de-dion-bouton-en-1923.html

 

Come to that, Wikipedia is actually a good place to start

 

https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autorails_De_Dion-Bouton

 

 

Edited February 2, 2022 by Nearholmer

[Michael Hodgson]

Much the same as what happened when a de Dion-Bouton didn't stop after crashing into a corrugated iron chicken shed 

 

https://www.historics.co.uk/buying/auctions/2021-04-17/cars/ref-114-1956-citroën-2cv-van-jg/#&gid=1&pid=2

 

[ianp]

The specific questions to which I'd like an answer are: who made the engines? what type were they? and what size? 

[Gordonwis]

3 hours ago, ianp said:

The specific questions to which I'd like an answer are: who made the engines? what type were they? and what size? 

 

 

 

I Can't see anything about the engine in the first type of railcar (that were like a bus on rails), but for the later De Dion which eventually became SNCF X200 on the Blanc Argent it says engine was from  Willeme, a company based in the Paris suburb of Nanterre: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willème

 

.

Edited February 2, 2022 by Gordonwis

[MickRalph]

De Dion Bouton seem to have built their own engines at some time; in the book "Voie metrique en Correze - P.O.C.", it is stated that 6 autorails bought in 1936 and 1938 (de Dion Bouton type ML) were powered by De Dion-Bouton petrol engines of 6 cylinders of type 100/140 of 70HP.  The neighbouring Tramways of the Correze had several types of De Dion Bouton railcars; the JA and JM models had motors of 20HP and 25HP respectively - the builder of these engines is not stated. The book "Les Petits Trains de Correze" confirms that the MLs had de Dion Bouton engines and similarly doesn't say who built the engines for the JA and JM models.

 

Edit: this seems to be at variance with the information given by Gordon above,  These books state that Willeme provided the motive power for later Verney railcars.

 

Mick Ralph

Edited February 6, 2022 by MickRalph

[ianathompson]

On 02/02/2022 at 11:11, ianp said:

Where is the best source of information (printed or online) about the railcars made by the French engineering company De Dion Bouton?

 

I cannot say that it is the best source but this topic was covered in Magazine des Tramways a Vapeur et des Secondaires (MTVS).

MTVS No 21 looked at Tartary and de Dion Bouiton railcars .

Unfortunately it was published in 1982 so I hardly imagne that it is very accessible.

De Dion Bouton  produced 195 vehicles in total between 1923 and 1952, although another 30 or so units were included in a Special Number series.

 

A quick glance at the text suggests that they were a sideline to their bicycle, and later car, business.

As far as I can tell they used their own engines.

 

On 02/02/2022 at 20:23, ianp said:

The specific questions to which I'd like an answer are: who made the engines? what type were they? and what size? 

 

Which model of railcar are you referring to?

They ran from primitive four wheel types, such as the JA model, through to some quite sophisticated bogie types such as model OC1 and OC2..

Whilst they mainly built narrow gauge types they also ventured into the stndard gauge market as well.

 

If you let me know the model, or the operating company,I will look it up for you although only thumbnail sketches are included for each type.

 

Ian T

[ianp]

3 hours ago, ianathompson said:

 

I cannot say that it is the best source but this topic was covered in Magazine des Tramways a Vapeur et des Secondaires (MTVS).

MTVS No 21 looked at Tartary and de Dion Bouiton railcars .

Unfortunately it was published in 1982 so I hardly imagne that it is very accessible.

De Dion Bouton  produced 195 vehicles in total between 1923 and 1952, although another 30 or so units were included in a Special Number series.

 

A quick glance at the text suggests that they were a sideline to their bicycle, and later car, business.

As far as I can tell they used their own engines.

 

 

Which model of railcar are you referring to?

They ran from primitive four wheel types, such as the JA model, through to some quite sophisticated bogie types such as model OC1 and OC2..

Whilst they mainly built narrow gauge types they also ventured into the stndard gauge market as well.

 

If you let me know the model, or the operating company,I will look it up for you although only thumbnail sketches are included for each type.

 

Ian T

Thank you for your offer of help. The model whose engine I am trying to identify was the ND model, seen here: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:De_Dion-Bouton_ND_207_Tournon_21_sept_1975.jpg

[ianathompson]

The ND as described in the magazine (in French).

 

The engine was a diesel UNIC M28 model which gave 120 hp.

This had 6 cylinders (115 x 165mm).

 

Additional info from MC Shaw in a PM on another forum indicates that the UNIC engines were made under licence from Mercedes.

Some of these railcars were laterre-engined with 150hp Berliet engines.

He also notes that MTVS no 13 and Arrivetz & Bejui state that the original motors gave 100hp.

Both publications cover the Vivarais.

I have both of these in my library but was initially too lazy to cross check.

Thus prodded I checked MTVS issue 12 (CFD Lozere) where the other two NDs went. 

This also states the hp was 100. 

The most recent Vivarais book (Claude Wagner 2016) manages to say almost nothing about the ND railcars.

 

Other details are that the chassis length was 9.50 metres and the driving wheels were 71 cms.

The bogie wheels wee 55cm in diameter.

Weight was 9.5 tonnes and they seated 31 (I could only count 30 spaces on the drawing!)

Works Nos 119-120 went to CFD Lozere and 121-125 went to CFD Vivarais.

They were styled after contemporary road bus practice but had a lower capacity than the MT model, from which they were derived.

 

From observation

Studying the diagram there is a small parcels section at the rear. 

They were obviously 6 wheel machines with a bogie at the front and a driving axle at the back.

They were turned using a verin, which is shown on the drawing.

This was a retractable turntable that could be wound down wherever needed to reverse the vehicle, avoiding the need for fixed turntables.

 

It is possible to create a working verin and my model of a  de Dion Bouton KG model incorporated one.

Unfortunately it fell apart years ago, rather like many French railcars.

The bits were salvaged with a view to re-incarnation but they currently lay dormant in a box as the AFK uses larger (mainly French based) railcars.

 

 

The photo was taken years ago.

 

Ian T

 

Edited February 17, 2022 by ianathompson
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