OO Gauge GWR Toplight Mainline & City Coaches announced

[PMP]

I don’t see anything abnormal with Dapols prices for these coaches.

https://uk.Hornby.com/products/br-collett-57-bow-ended-d98-six-compartment-brake-third-left-hand-w4949w-era-4-r4880a
 

They will be bought by people who want a different type of GWR/WR coach to run on their model railway, from those they already have. While it’s a niche prototype, it’ll largely be seen as nice suburban stock and bought on that basis. My senses tell me at this price/detail point they’ll do well.

 

They’re short attractive coaches. If Dapol wanted to test the water of selling them as other companies liveried coaches, into the ‘Generic’ pre group market, a run of a popular livery, S&D for example, might sell well too.

[The Johnster]

This announcement has completely left-fielded me, and I’m going to find it difficult to resist some to convert them to South Wales miner’s mode; well done Dapol for what certainly look like excellent models at a reasonable (for these days) price, also well done for those discounting it, and it looks like we might not have to wait too long for them as well!  I approve very strongly of the removable roofs for accessing the interiors.  A good level of detail and I’m sure they’ll find their way on to layouts depicting locations a long way from London.  The gangwayed toplights will fly off the shelves when they are available. 

 

I’m a little disappointed in the tail lamp, a bit of a near-miss IMHO.  Not removable, which means that a lamp will be visible on the leading coach of a set between the train and the loco, very much a no-no as the tail lamp indicates to the signalman that the train is complete, and should only be displayed on the rear vehicle.  I know it’s a bit of an ask, but we really need working oil lamps that are removable from coaches, goods brake vans, and steam locos, and for which the light source is obscured when the lamp is removed. 
 

I think Dap have missed a trick with the 3 Glyncorrwg coaches, though they may by plotting behind the scenes of course.  The Glyncorrwg miners train was propelled from Glyncorrwg to the pits it served (between 1958 and 1962) and a central droplight window was cut in the brake compartment ends for the guard, who had a foot-treadle operated auto trailer type bell to scare the sheep with.  
 

The leading coach carried a white head lamp when it was being propelled, with the tail lamp mounted on the rear of the loco.  The toplights were painted over on these unlined maroon liveried coaches, which seem from photos to have been kept creditably clean, especially in comparison with their clerestory and 4-wheeled predecessors, on which the livery was an academic concept at best…

[The Stationmaster]

46 minutes ago, BMacdermott said:

Hello Harlequin

 

We knew that.

 

Brian

And said so at the time - as I'm sure everyone who voted in those various polls fully understood.  

 

However there is a the big problem with Toplights which, apart from the City sets (with some minor things), will never go away and that is the extent to which the vehicles were altered externally over the years.  This means that a manufacturer has to choose a particular period in their lives or start using expensive slides and additional tools if they wish to accurately capture the vehicles of over a longer part of their life (see belwo).  And some people will not buy them if they are not representative for the time period they model - although others won't give a damn and no doubt will buy (or might not even realise there were differences).  I suspect it is this, as well as the considerable complexity of what were 'Toplights' that has put off manufacturers in the past because sales usually increase with the greater number of periods a model can cover although the 57ft vehicles have always been the most obvious ones to go for.

 

The appearance of 'generic' coaches - which in a way takes us back to the tinplate age - could well lead to a different attitude among purchasers.  And - as 'Miss Prism' and 'PMP' have already observed - the City vehicles will no doubt sell because of their appearance despite their limited real area of operation.  Let's face it if someone can churn out over the years umpteen versions of the final three Beattie Well tanks which had an even more restricted area of operation a lot of people probably won't be too questioning about fidelity when it comes to the places they will run City set vehicles - in or out of their sets.

 

Just as an overblown illustration the 'whitewash coach' was undoubtedly the most altered Toplight of them all thanks to its long life - as these pictures show, to some extent (I can't find views of it in every condition it went through over the years -

 

Early days -

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/misc/misc_equip243.htm

 

1951 (not much changed, panelling still in place)

https://thetransportlibrary.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=65&product_id=86475

 

I can't find a photo of it in BR lined maroon although by then I think most of the toplights (not all) had been covered/plated over and the panelling was gradually going

 

Late 1960s

https://www.flickr.com/photos/blue-diesels/36266479173

 

Final Condition

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/47327-is-this-an-inspection-saloon/

 

Edited February 4, 2022 by The Stationmaster

[Steamport Southport]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

This announcement has completely left-fielded me, and I’m going to find it difficult to resist some to convert them to South Wales miner’s mode; well done Dapol for what certainly look like excellent models at a reasonable (for these days) price, also well done for those discounting it, and it looks like we might not have to wait too long for them as well!  I approve very strongly of the removable roofs for accessing the interiors.  A good level of detail and I’m sure they’ll find their way on to layouts depicting locations a long way from London.  The gangwayed toplights will fly off the shelves when they are available. 

 

I’m a little disappointed in the tail lamp, a bit of a near-miss IMHO.  Not removable, which means that a lamp will be visible on the leading coach of a set between the train and the loco, very much a no-no as the tail lamp indicates to the signalman that the train is complete, and should only be displayed on the rear vehicle.  I know it’s a bit of an ask, but we really need working oil lamps that are removable from coaches, goods brake vans, and steam locos, and for which the light source is obscured when the lamp is removed. 
 

I think Dap have missed a trick with the 3 Glyncorrwg coaches, though they may by plotting behind the scenes of course.  The Glyncorrwg miners train was propelled from Glyncorrwg to the pits it served (between 1958 and 1962) and a central droplight window was cut in the brake compartment ends for the guard, who had a foot-treadle operated auto trailer type bell to scare the sheep with.  
 

The leading coach carried a white head lamp when it was being propelled, with the tail lamp mounted on the rear of the loco.  The toplights were painted over on these unlined maroon liveried coaches, which seem from photos to have been kept creditably clean, especially in comparison with their clerestory and 4-wheeled predecessors, on which the livery was an academic concept at best…

 

I'm wondering whether they are planning on doing the miners train as a website exclusive edition or limited edition for one of their retailers such as Hattons and Rails.

 

These are the current exclusives. They don't seem to advertise them for some strange reason.

 

https://www.Dapol.co.uk/shop/Dapol_Exclusive_Models

 

 

 

Jason

[Coach bogie]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

 

 

I can't find a photo of it in BR lined maroon although by then I think most of the toplights (not all) had been covered/plated over and the panelling was gradually going

 

 

 

There is a Dick Riley colour shot, in maroon in Great Western Carriages in Colour, Kevin Robertson. Full maroon with single yellow line below and above window height.

 

I agree with the continual changing condition. When look at suitable toplights for a kit, a few years ago, many pictures were amassed of the same diagram and no two images were the same to the extent that the built as a fully panelled coach, had only two panels left in one image and was running on different bogies.

 

I am just finishing of a C32 from Worsley Works sides, a steel sided toplight. If I were to model it on the image I have, it should not have any top lights or above window vents, and bogies changed from fishbellies to 7ft.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Steamport Southport]

6 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

... but not take up an excessive length - just over 4 ft; a good 13 in shorter than six Mk 1s!

 

But how does £/ft compare with, say, the Hornby Coronation Scot or Coronation coaches?

 

Depends on if you are talking about the shorty Mark Ones which are 57 footers. 

 

CBA measuring them, but comparison between sets.

 

£306 for a six coach Dapol set. 6 x £51 at current retailer prices.

 

£378 for a nine coach Coronation Scot. 9 x £42 is what I paid. ISTR it was something daft like £42.16 each so slightly rounded down.

 

 

 

Jason

[Paul.Uni]

I'll probably get models of the pair preserved at Didcot.

 

I'll might also get a rake to run behind my Heljan Metropolitian locos. At a very simplistic level am I right in thinking that sets 2 & 3 would be suitable for the Metropolitian liveried locos and for the pre-war London Transport locos sets 3 & 4 would be suitable?

[Miss Prism]

The camping coaches at Blue Anchor are good examples of plated over Toplights. This one's a mixture!

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:GWR_coaches_on_the_West_Somerset_Railway#/media/File:Blue_Anchor_-_GWR_G35_Third_3980_camp_coach_coridor_side.jpg

 

 

Edited February 27 by Miss Prism
grammar

[Mike_Walker]

Didn't the Whitewash Coach end its days on B4 bogies?

[Coach bogie]

20 minutes ago, Mike_Walker said:

Didn't the Whitewash Coach end its days on B4 bogies?

It did, the original 7ft bogies going to Didcot.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[sjrixon]

'Accidentally' pre-ordered 4 of the twin cities version.. 

Edited February 4, 2022 by sjrixon

[Engineer]

"... am I right in thinking that sets 2 & 3 would be suitable for the Metropolitian liveried locos and for the pre-war London Transport locos sets 3 & 4 would be suitable?"

 

The set 1 GWR livery would broadly be compatible with the Metropolitan locos in their original livery pre-nameplates [so before 1928ish]. 

 

Since these coaches appeared in 1920 and 1921, they would be also around just in time for a brief overlap with the original Metropolitan BWE [camel-back] and BTH [box-cab] electric locomotives that were eliminated progressively from 1920 to 1922.

Edited February 4, 2022 by Engineer
Nitpicking date adjustment

[martinT]

3 hours ago, The Johnster said:

I think Dap have missed a trick with the 3 Glyncorrwg coaches, though they may by plotting behind the scenes of course.  The Glyncorrwg miners train was propelled from Glyncorrwg to the pits it served (between 1958 and 1962) and a central droplight window was cut in the brake compartment ends for the guard, who had a foot-treadle operated auto trailer type bell to scare the sheep with.

... like this at Hampton Loade in June 1968. I don't know whether it's 3755 or 3756 - both arrived on the Severn Valley in 1967 & remained there until transfer to Didcot in 1976.

Edited February 4, 2022 by martinT
Firm dates of 1967 & 1976 added - info from SVR Wiki

[County of Yorkshire]

I need to stick my order in, but unsure what livery to go for for my 1947 needs.

 

There’s no ‘Hawksworth’ livery of Great <Crest> Western offered but then they may never have received this livery anyway. Being last applied in 1942, I’m guessing the shirtbutton livery would have been seen for at least 6-7 years after that? I’m also assuming that the all-over GWR brown would then have been used from 1942 until sometime during 1945? 
 

Can anyone shed any light @Miss Prism @gwrrob?

 

Cheers, 

 

CoY

[gwrrob]

I’d go for either or both myself as they’re both suitable for our ‘47 period. If you want to see the brown livery search out the 7mm B set that Lionheart did recently.

[County of Yorkshire]

3 minutes ago, gwrrob said:

I’d go for either or both myself as they’re both suitable for our ‘47 period. If you want to see the brown livery search out the 7mm B set that Lionheart did recently.

Indeed. 
 

Here’s a Hornby D98 I made earlier. 

 

On balance will go for these in shirtbutton as I think the overall brown was competitively rare and I prefer chocolate & cream on coaches! 

 

Would the full 6 coach sets have been shopped at the same time or would individual coaches have been sent up to Swindon as needed? 
 

Thanks. 

[BenL]

The lovely D98 you’ve done there @County of Yorkshire is in the wartime ‘red brown’ livery whereas I suspect the non-corridor Toplights were more likely to have received the even more austere but seemingly much more common all-over ‘standard’ GWR brown (with no orange waist lining) as many clerestories and workmen’s train carriages did on the wartime and postwar GWR. But I guess the Dapol artwork will reveal all in due course.

Edited February 4, 2022 by BenL

[Miss Prism]

I too doubt whether the lined 'reddish brown' appeared on anything other than mainline stock, and I feel Dapol is flying another livery kite.

 

[County of Yorkshire]

1 hour ago, Miss Prism said:

I too doubt whether the lined 'reddish brown' appeared on anything other than mainline stock, and I feel Dapol is flying another livery kite.

 

What’s your best guess at the livery of a Mainline & City rake outshopped between 1942 and 1947, Miss? 
 

Cheers, 

 

CoY

[Miss Prism]

I really don't know. If the shopping was between 1942 and 1943, the most likely livery would be all over unlined dark brown. From 1943 onward, brown and cream was restored with single lining and Great crest Western.

 

This assumes however any of the sets were outshopped from 1943 to 1947. We don't know. I don't think there is any evidence one way or the other. My best guess is that they remained in uncleaned 1930s livery during the war.

 

Edited February 4, 2022 by Miss Prism

[rovex]

Any comment yet from Dapol about their BR maroon.

 

Their spec suggests 1950 onwards, but maroon didn't come in till 1956?

[Les1952]

2 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

I too doubt whether the lined 'reddish brown' appeared on anything other than mainline stock, and I feel Dapol is flying another livery kite.

 

 

If it adds to their overall sales, why not?  Gives them more in the bank to afford to make the next model......

 

[Miss Prism]

If Dapol wanted to increase their market, the first variation I'd do would be a set in LMS maroon. Or GER blue, or [insert obscure livery of desire]

 

Great for Minories fans of all persuasions...

 

 

[The Johnster]

If Dapol are describing the June 1948-1956 plain crimson BR livery as 'maroon', they are not alone; John Lewis does the same thing in his Great Western Auto Trailers books.  My impression of the coloured drawing posted by Dap is that it is crimson, but pinning colours down in an objective way, as so much is reliant on the printing process, the size of the image. the background colour, room lighting, and my screen!  As the sets were withdrawn from service in 1957 except the Glyncorrwg trio, which were definitely in unlined maroon 1956 BR livery when they arrived at Glyncorrwg in 1958, I would postulate that sets or individual coaches in BR maroon livery were unlikely, in the absence of photographic evidence,  None ever carried lined maroon livery, which was not applied to non-gangwayed stock until 1959. 

 

TTBOMK coaches coupled in close-coupled semi-permanent 'sets' were overhauled as complete sets.

[The Johnster]

5 hours ago, rovex said:

but maroon didn't come in till 1956?

 

Lined maroon for gangwayed stock dates from 1956, and non-gangwayed stock was painted in plain unlined maroon from that time, but after 1959 all passenger stock irrespective of wheter or not it had gangways was turned out in lined maroon.