OO Gauge GWR Toplight Mainline & City Coaches announced

[Steamport Southport]

I would suggest they are using the term Maroon to differentiate between the GWR Crimson.

 

BR Maroon was exactly the same colour as MR and LMS Crimson. Just that the amount of varnishing and finishing was different. That's why BR Maroon seems dull.

 

Also the same colour as Festiniog Railway Cherry Red. Bought from the same paint maker in Derby.

 

Joseph Mason.

 

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/060bd700-566e-4af0-8805-06325270d63c

 

 

Jason

 

Edited February 5, 2022 by Steamport Southport

[Hal Nail]

2 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

I would suggest they are using the term Maroon to differentiate between the GWR Crimson.

 

If the "maroon" ones are actually the more appropriate BR crimson, I can't think of a better way to avoid confusion than calling calling them BR crimson, personally.

[The Johnster]

Well, it's still an 'if' situation, and we will need to see decorated samples before the matter resolves itself.  I am guessing/weighing probablities but I would be surprised if the coaches were not all in BR 1948-56 crimson livery when they were withdrawn, and the Glyncorrwg 3 repainted in unlined maroon for that service.  All that said, my impression is that colour of the coaches in the Dapol post described as 'maroon' is in fact what I know as BR crimson; it looks very similar to the shade Hornby use on their BR crimson livery Collett 57' suburbans. 

 

As so often with colour, shade, and hue, it is difficult to be objective.  Hornby do not have the best record in this matter, and I prefer my BR crimson a little lighter than theirs, but this opinion may be influenced by memories and colour photos of faded coaches in service.  I have not repainted or even weathered my Hornby 57footers, and am happy enough with them as they are, as there was some variety apparent on coaches in service due to fading and weathering (and of course there was a good bit of dirt around in those days on a steam railway). 

[Michael Hodgson]

9 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

 

As so often with colour, shade, and hue, it is difficult to be objective.  Hornby do not have the best record in this matter, and I prefer my BR crimson a little lighter than theirs, but this opinion may be influenced by memories and colour photos of faded coaches in service.  

 

Absolutely.  It wasn't just certain coaches that have faded in service, so have both memories and colour photos.

I really can't get excited about whether some particular colour should be darker or lighter than somebody else has chosen.  As you say there was a fair bit of dirt about in steam days - and pollution was not just from locos, but also in the atmosphere generally, acidic rain before the clean air acts.  We've seen colour changes in more recent times too, BR blue tended to look quite different after it had been attacked repeatedly by Exmover in carriage washing plants.

 

I don't have the artistic skills but weathering is the way to go for those who do get upset by the colours the RTR trade chooses to use.  

[The Johnster]

6 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

6 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

I don't have the artistic skills but weathering is the way to go for those who do get upset by the colours the RTR trade chooses to

 

It certainly hides a multitude of sins, and you can also repaint your coaches, especially when  they are in unlined liveries!  I'm certainly no expert when it comes to weathering, and cannot aspire to some of the works of weathering art that appear on 'Get Britain Modelling - show us yours'.  But there is little skill involved in a simple washover to take the 'new' off RTR models, and I can recommend it. 

 

All you need is a thinned down mixture of dirty colour matt paint (I use watered down acrylic), a paintbrush, and some kitchen tissue.  Paint over the surface to be weathered, working the muck mixture into corners, gaps between wagon planks, door grooves etc., and gently wipe it off before it dries.  Brush strokes vertically up the sides so that the paint is thinner towards the cantrail, and wipe downwards.  You can control the degree of muck you want by the thickness of the coat applied and how firmly you wipe it off; you can build up coats and wipe off until you get the finish you want.  This is as good as matt varnish for sealing transfers.

 

Finish off wagons and goods vans with a dab of dark brown rust stain streaked downwards from door clasps, hinges, and anything else made of ferrous metal on the prototype, and this technique can be very lightly applied on locomotive rivets; spot of paint on whatever the item in and wipe downwards gently with the tissue.  A simiar method can be used to show rust streaks below gutters on buildings, or green algae stains where the wall is damp.  A good dodge on coaches, especially NPCCS, is to dirty the windows and then clean them, but not completely, suggesting where a porter or postal worker has wiped the dirt off to see what is inside the vehicle. 

 

NPCCS is particular fun as you can justifiably go to town on them, and they are very good as practice pieces because if you overdo it no great harm is done and the coach can go into service without needing a full repaint.  As I say, this is a simple, easy, and pretty basic technique, so much so that even The Johnster can do it with reasonable effectiveness, and you'll soon pick it up.

 

Below the solebars, it is IMHO very good practice to adopt the view that only ex-works and museum vehicles have black paint.  Work the muckwash brush in and around bogies, W-irons, and all the underframe detail with a brown based wash; even a vehicle fresh from the paintshop will lose the black finish quickly, within it's first mile of travel on wet days,

 

Even very lighly applied and subtle coats of this sort of muckwash will make a big difference to the appearance of the model, and lift it above the run-of-the-mill look of unaltered RTR.  It will, of course. also destroy the resale value to collectors, so don't do it if that's important to you (as you can probably tell, it isn't to me!).

[Les1952]

Crimsons, maroons and creams also varied with the practice of the works looking after the coaches.

 

The main reason for this is varnish, which yellows the shade on the final vehicle.  A works that instead of repainting every overhauled vehicle put a new protective two or three coats of varnish managed to produce crimsons that were more orange and creams that were more yellow.  More varnish also brightens and yellows BR (and LMS) maroon.

 

I remember people being upset with Dapol in George Smith's day over a set of released Collett coaches that were almost orange and yellow, lessened by some when he produced a set of colour photos showing this shade.   That set off an "oh that is just the fault of the film emulsions" argument which was only stopped when---

 

someone produced a photo of an orange-yellow coach coupled to a crimson and cream one..........

 

Les

 

[ndg910]

Sorry if someone has asked and it’s been answered. How were these coaches marshalled in their set and are any handed (apart from the brakes)? I know they are not left or right handed but was the underframe always a certain way round for instance or is there a feature that was only at one end of each coach. I have not as yet seen a definitive picture showing the order or their orientation. Thanks

[Mike_Walker]

28 minutes ago, ndg910 said:

Sorry if someone has asked and it’s been answered. How were these coaches marshalled in their set and are any handed (apart from the brakes)? I know they are not left or right handed but was the underframe always a certain way round for instance or is there a feature that was only at one end of each coach. I have not as yet seen a definitive picture showing the order or their orientation. Thanks

BT-T-C-C-T-BT but no idea which way round!

[Miss Prism]

The first class sections of the composites were adjacent to each other.

 

[Engineer]

I don't think it's been mentioned already but there was a Model Railway Constructor Plans Page feature on these coaches in May 1962.  I took an interest because of the Metropolitan Railway connection but can't vouch for the content.  Drawings had some detail and dimensions. there are some notes on the vehicles, and two side photographs, seemingly as-built, of the Brake Coach and the Composite.  These show some shadowy useful below-solebar detail such as battery boxes and dynamos. 

[The Stationmaster]

A bit more information on where they did/didn't get to in everyday working.  Looking at the Summer 1937 Coach Working there were 8 sets in traffic SX, 6 SO, and 3 on Sundays and they didn't get very far west with minimal working beyond Slough.  

 

They theoretically got further afield during WWII when along with strengthened  A sets they were placed into the Q set workings and any set could - in theory be allocated to any diagram for those sets.  This could have got them as far as Savernake,  Didcot, or Oxford so well beyond their previous stamping ground.  From around late Septewmber/October 1941 the 1st Class compartments were declassified and seems possible that the numbers on the doors were painted out on some vehicles as there was an Instruction to use paper labels if there was any external indication that a compartment was signified as being 1st Class

Edited February 6, 2022 by The Stationmaster

[The Fatadder]

On 04/02/2022 at 17:33, Miss Prism said:

I too doubt whether the lined 'reddish brown' appeared on anything other than mainline stock, and I feel Dapol is flying another livery kite.

 

I have photos of B Set Kingsbridge No2 taken in 1946 which are in all over brown with lining.   Is this more likely to be the ‘normal’ GWR brown than the reddish brown?  I was under the impression (probably incorrectly) that if lined it was likely to be the reddish brown and if not lined then plain chocolate 

[Miss Prism]

20 minutes ago, The Fatadder said:

I was under the impression (probably incorrectly) that if lined it was likely to be the reddish brown and if not lined then plain chocolate 

 

That's my hypothesis as well. Thanks for the Kingsbridge B set info - it seems that red brown with lining was applied to suburban stock. My guess is that this was rare.

 

[GeoffBird]

What locos were used to haul these sets when they first came out - before the "Tanner Ones" arrived?   County tanks?

[Miss Prism]

Typically, Metro tanks, Birdcage tanks (probably) and County tanks.

 

Edited February 7, 2022 by Miss Prism

[wainwright1]

Might some of these limited restriction coaches be used for excursions, say at weekends, when they were not needed for the City services.

We were wondering if they could have worked through the widened lines to Crystal Palace and therefore appeared on our High Level layout.

 

All the best

Ray

[Dunsignalling]

2 hours ago, wainwright1 said:

Might some of these limited restriction coaches be used for excursions, say at weekends, when they were not needed for the City services.

We were wondering if they could have worked through the widened lines to Crystal Palace and therefore appeared on our High Level layout.

 

All the best

Ray

 

Mind you, back when these coaches were in their prime, most City office workers would still have been working Saturday mornings, so the scope for any excursion use would have been relatively limited.  

 

John

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

Mind you, back when these coaches were in their prime, most City office workers would still have been working Saturday mornings, so the scope for any excursion use would have been relatively limited.  

 

John

Hence the differences between the Monday - Friday and Saturday timetables with the Saturday Down trains running earlier than those on the other days.

 

4 hours ago, wainwright1 said:

Might some of these limited restriction coaches be used for excursions, say at weekends, when they were not needed for the City services.

We were wondering if they could have worked through the widened lines to Crystal Palace and therefore appeared on our High Level layout.

 

All the best

Ray

Why go that way?  Surely using the Crystal Palace Loop would have made more logical sense to the GWR (although that was originally there for for trains to Paddington rather than the other way about)?  And in any case the GWR did not have Running Powers for passenger trains over the Widened Lines.

[Forward!]

Well fair play to Dapol- choosing a type of carriage I'm going to have to buy six of to run realistically. I hope their going to be available in good numbers because while the 360 notes required for a full set is a good price, it's going to be difficult to justify to my wife!

 

But I model suburban outer London GWR (albeit generically rather than a specific location), so it's basically my duty to buy a set, right? And for once, I've actually got plenty of suitable motive power on hand to pull a set.

 

And the announcement of the corridor Toplights is amazing news! Not only was it looking like they were never going to get done by a rtr manufacturer, in the last decade most of the sources of Toplight kits was beginning to dry up too.

 

As a younger modeller I don't benefit from my loft being insulated by a load of kits stashed away in the 1970s, so I was genuinely beginning to think I'd never be able to get some Toplights on my model railway!

 

Will

[Forward!]

16 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

 This could have got them as far as Savernake,  Didcot, or Oxford so well beyond their previous stamping ground.  

 

I am sure they've been pictured at Oxford. And Harris states this in Great Western Coaches too.

[Garethp8873]

Just spotted a photo in Great Western Coaches Appendix Vol.1 (p.81, Fig 196) of preserved example GWR 3755 at Reading in 1946 if that is any use to anyone here.

[Chuffed 1]

On 04/02/2022 at 13:31, Coach bogie said:

There is a Dick Riley colour shot, in maroon in Great Western Carriages in Colour, Kevin Robertson. Full maroon with single yellow line below and above window height.

 

 

 

Mike Wiltshire

I’m no Great Western expert, but I was under the impression that around 1950-51 some non-corridor stock on both Western and Southern regions received lined crimson lake with a single black line flanked by yellows just below the droplight bottoms.

 

There’s a picture Russell, Appendix 1 of an articulated set C52 taken in 1954, and C43 at Windsor in 1951, so finished. He refers elsewhere to it as ‘British Railways first livery’.  At least one Southern Region pull-push set also carried this.

Was this a short-lived experiment or a deliberate change of policy, perhaps?

[Hal Nail]

5 hours ago, Chuffed 1 said:

around 1950-51 some non-corridor stock on both Western and Southern regions received lined crimson lake

Crimson lake is an LMS colour but is the same shade as BR maroon which came in from c1956.

 

Br crimson is the bright earlier 1950s colour (often called carmine/blood/strawberry etc). I think you might be right that some non-corridor crimson stock got a form of lining (one of the parcels railcars did too) but I don't think it was particularly common.

Edited February 11, 2022 by Hal Nail

[Miss Prism]

6 hours ago, Chuffed 1 said:

I’m no Great Western expert, but I was under the impression that around 1950-51 some non-corridor stock on both Western and Southern regions received lined crimson lake with a single black line flanked by yellows just below the droplight bottoms.

 

There’s a picture Russell, Appendix 1 of an articulated set C52 taken in 1954, and C43 at Windsor in 1951, so finished. He refers elsewhere to it as ‘British Railways first livery’.  At least one Southern Region pull-push set also carried this.

Was this a short-lived experiment or a deliberate change of policy, perhaps?

 

No change in policy, except that the policy was under continuous change in that era. (Lined crimson, introduced for non-corridor stock in 1949.)

 

[The Johnster]

Something like this was applied to W 3338. the last surviving Clifton Downs diagram A2 compartment driving trailer in service.  This coach was initially withdrawn from service in the summer of 1948, from Oxford I think, and was re-instated in late 1949, allocated to the Cardiff Valleys division at Cardiff Queen Street.  It was repainted from it's last GW livery into BR crimson, but with a single yellow line bordered black at waist level and a second yellow line at cantrail level.  The lining was not carried around the cab end, and the other end was painted black.  To compound the issue, some droplights were replaced with cream painted ones, presumably all that was available in stores.

 

This coach is photographed in John Lewis's 'Great Western Auto Trailers' part 1 in the carriage sidings at Queen Street and at Pontypridd on a Porth working.  In September 1953 it was transferred to Tondu for the introduction of auto working at this depot, in connection with a new South Wales Valleys timetable that extended auto working in the area considerably (it was at this time that Collett flat-ended thirds and brake thirds were converted for auto working and a batch of 4575s fitted with auto gear).

 

The initial allocation of auto trailers to Tondu in 1953 was of gas-lit types, W 3338, 2x diagram A10, 2x Diagram N, and a pair of Taff Vale trailers.  This was because it was considered that the low speed of trains here, especially on the very sharply curved Porthcawl branch, would not allow sufficicient charge from the dynamos to keep the batteries topped up on electrically lit coaches.  This was found not to be true in the event and all the gas-lit trailers had been replaced by 1958.  W 3338 was withdrawn for the second time, this time for good, in 1954.

 

 

Here is W 3338 at Cwmdimbath on a afternoon Bridgend working in early 1954, showing the livery, lining, and the cream droplights, modelled from the Lewis photo of it on the Pontypridd-Porth working.  It is of course the Roxey kit, built for me by Iain D to a far higher standard than I could manage.  An unusual and attractive livery.