Door stops and livery of GWR diagram O4 5-plank opens - questions, questions...

[magmouse]

I currently have a Slaters (ex. CooperCraft) GWR 5-plank wagon, diagram O4, on my workbench. I am trying to decide what I am going to do about livery and door stops.

Regarding door stops, Atkins et al, in A History of GWR Goods Wagons, claim the O4 diagram was the first merchandise open with low hanging door stops (as opposed to the short ones that barely go below the solebar). They say this on p.46 of the first combined edition, in a caption to a photograph which illustrates their point.

However, in Russell's GWR Wagons Appendix on p.14 there is a five plank with short door stops, contradicting Atkins et al. or at least indicating the long doorstops were not used universally after they were initially introduced. The wagon in this photo looks pretty new, but there is confusion over the dates in the caption, which claims the wagon is an O5 from 1888 (but that would be a four plank, and this is five). It also says the photo is 1909, but the date on the sheet on the wagon is November 1900, and the sheet looks brand new.

The plot thickens, as on page 20, fig 30 shows a diagram O4, with long door stops, but there appear to be marks on the plank work of the door suggesting it previously had short stops with associated banger plates.

Between them, these two photos indicate that perhaps at least some O4s had short door stops to begin with, but these were later changed to long ones. The photo on page 20 is dated 1907, but given the flakiness over dating in the caption on p14, I am not too confident about this. A further bit of evidence is the wagon on page 20 has reversible brake shoes, which according to Jim Champ (http://www.gwr.org.uk/nowagonbrakes.html) don't come in until 1911. If Jim is correct, this photo must be after 1911.

In terms of livery, I subscribe to the 1904 theory for the introduction of grey livery. Assuming this is correct, most or all diagram O4 wagons would have been initially in red livery (built 1902-04). The page 20 picture, then, if the caption date of 1907 is correct, shows a wagon repainted no more than 5 years after being built, with modified door stops and preternaturally early reversible brake shoes.

I am modelling c.1908, so the questions for me are - when do long door stops come in? Is it feasible a wagon was repainted so soon after being built - perhaps at the same time other work was undertaken (repairs?)? More generally, should I stop believing in the 1904 date for the change from red to grey?? Should I stop believing Jim Russell's caption dates????

Penetrating insights gratefully received...

Nick.

 

PS  - and here is a picture of it on the workbench, awaiting decisions on the above questions. I am modelling it with the sheet bar up and a sheet over it - hence the reinforcing of the sheet bar, and not worrying about interior detail or the top half of the body. The kit brakegear has been replaced with more accurate and refined WEP etched brass components.

 

Edited April 2, 2022 by magmouse
Edited to replace lost photo.

[Miss Prism]

46 minutes ago, magmouse said:

...has reversible brake shoes, which according to Jim Champ (http://www.gwr.org.uk/nowagonbrakes.html) don't come in until 1911. If Jim is correct, this photo must be after 1911.

 

That section is my addition, so blame me!  (I have also added other bits to that page. I tend to take liberties with Jim's stuff, and he is very equable.) Adrian Swain was ok with the content, and he was not easily pleased. But please note that section is prefaced with "a simplified development of the main styles", and the 1911 reference is c 1911, i.e. no one knows exactly when the reversibles were introduced.

 

I'll have a cogitate about the main subject of your message tomorrow, but I don't have the old combined 2nd edition to hand, so your citations don't mean much to me at the moment, suffice to say I am not at all surprised that different banger styles occurred, with the general tendency of long bangers superseding the shorties. Banger spacings also varied.

 

 

 

[Hal Nail]

1 hour ago, magmouse said:

I am modelling it with the sheet bar up and a sheet over it - hence the reinforcing of the sheet bar, and not worrying about interior detail or the top half of the body.

I regarded this as cheating until about half way through completion of my first china clay conversion. Somewhere around the 50th added bolt head I decided larger than prototypical sheets was the way forward

[Craigw]

The very first of the 04 wagons were fitted with lever brakes - 75067, 75069 are part of Lot 377 (GWR Goods Services 2A page 56) and the do not seem to have been fitted with bangs and springs. I suspect that 12325 looks to have been part of Lot 410 and was built after the change to DC1 and the introduction of door bangs and springs. 76267 is from Lot 423 (later build) and 75707 (lot 390 ) was photographed in 1922 and had likely had the newer typed fitted at a later date. 

 

For 1908 I would be going with the earlier type on most wagons.

 

Regards,

 

Craig W

[Miss Prism]

13 hours ago, magmouse said:

However, in Russell's GWR Wagons Appendix on p.14 there is a five plank with short door stops, contradicting Atkins et al. or at least indicating the long doorstops were not used universally after they were initially introduced. The wagon in this photo looks pretty new, but there is confusion over the dates in the caption, which claims the wagon is an O5 from 1888 (but that would be a four plank, and this is five). It also says the photo is 1909, but the date on the sheet on the wagon is November 1900, and the sheet looks brand new.

 

What number is the wagon?

 

 

13 hours ago, magmouse said:

The plot thickens, as on page 20, fig 30 shows a diagram O4, with long door stops, but there appear to be marks on the plank work of the door suggesting it previously had short stops with associated banger plates.

 

That would be 76267, plate 357, in the 1998 Edition.

[magmouse]

Thanks @Craigw and @Miss Prism.

 

So people can cross references with @Craigw's comments, the wagon numbers are as follows:

 

Atkins et al, A History of GWR Goods Wagons, p46 - 75707

Russell, GWR Wagons Appendix, p.14 - 12325

Russell, GWR Wagons Appendix, p.20 - 76267.

 

Mapping the wagons in the photos to lot numbers is helpful - do you have dates for those lots?

 

It's curious that early O4's were built without door springs, since earlier 4-plank wagons had these - unless all door strings were retro-fitted after the 5-plank O4 design was introduced? None of this quite gets us to a date for the shift from short to long springs...

 

Similarly, thanks @Miss Prism for the response re the introduction of reversible brake shoes. Again, possibly a wild goose chase, but it would be useful to track down their earliest appearance in photos we can confidently date.

 

For my narrow purposes, it would also be very helpful to either confirm or deny the stated date for the picture of 76267 in the Appendix.

 

Nick.

[Miss Prism]

75707 - L390

12325 - L410

76267 - L423

 

Sorry, I don't have dates for the lots yet. (But all 1901-4 of course.)

 

2 hours ago, magmouse said:

unless all door strings were retro-fitted after the 5-plank O4 design was introduced?

 

Door spring fitting didn't happen overnight. Thousands of wagons were involved. We don't know whether the O4s were the first to be fitted.

 

 

Edited February 7, 2022 by Miss Prism

[magmouse]

2 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

Door spring fitting didn't happen overnight. Thousands of wagons were involved. We don't know whether the O4s were the first to be fitted.

Looking again through various books, I have found most 4-plank wagons (retrospectively diagram O5) photographed from 1901 onwards to have short springs on the non-brake side, with just a banger plate to strike against the vee hanger on the braked side. There are some 1902 photos showing quite grubby wagons, suggesting they are at least a few years into service since being built or refurbished, so it seems likely short springs came in in the late 1890s at the latest. Certainly other types of wagon have springs at this time and earlier - for example the diagram O7 linoleum wagon of 1890 shown in Russell’s “freight wagons and loads” book, fig. 13.

 

Two and three plank wagons seem never to have springs, that I can find anyway. The mystery still is when long springs come in, and the pictures I have access to don’t give much of a clue to that.

 

tomorrow it will go on a further hunt for evidence of reversible brake shoes…

 

Nick.

[Miss Prism]

I would say that the long springs probably made their official debut on the O9s, or at some stage during the O9 build (there were lots of 'em!). The O9 diagram diagram doesn't show the long springs, but the 1909 picture of 22106 has them fitted. O9s were built 1906-11, although the lot allocations are incompletely recorded (22106 being possibly of lot 613 or lot 655). Diagrams after O9 tend to show the long springs.

 

The contemporary coal wagons are similar but lagging behind the opens when it comes to the style of springs.  The N2 of 1906 has shortie springs, as does the N13 diagram of 1905. N18 diagram of 1909 doesn't show springs, but the picture indicates they had shorties fitted. It's quite a while later when long springs become standard for the coal wagons.

 

Edited February 8, 2022 by Miss Prism

[magmouse]

@Miss Prism - thanks, that makes sense and is helpful. Presumably once long springs become a design feature, they may get retro-fitted to earlier wagons when they get major overhauls. This seems to be the case with 76267, the diagram O4 shown in Russell, GWR Wagons Appendix, p.20, where there seems to be marks on the door planks where the banger plates were previously in a lower position, corresponding to short springs. The 1907 date for this picture given by Russell is compatible with your chronology, but only just, and I am still a bit skeptical.

 

Regarding the introduction of short springs, the pictures of Swindon with all the withdrawn broad gauge stock shows fish opens with door stops (not really springs), so I suspect this was seen as something necessary for bigger, heavier doors of 4-plank and above, and so not fitted to two and three plank wagons.

[Miss Prism]

The 76267 picture date does seem suspicious.

[K14]

On 08/02/2022 at 09:23, Miss Prism said:

The 76267 picture date does seem suspicious.

 

Backed up by the dates on the wagon though:—

 

 

I read two of them as being Wr 08.10.07 - Worcester?, but there's another date on the solebar that **could** be read as 1911. (X WS 5.7.11).

Can't make out the paint date under the G unfortunately.

 

Edited April 11, 2022 by K14
Reattaching Image

[magmouse]

@K14 - well spotted! I agree the second date looks like 5.7.11, but what would that signify?

 

The date on the plank above the tare looks like it is in chalk - perhaps written there by the foreman as a reference for the painter.

 

In this picture the wagon looks newly painted - no sign of dirt anywhere, and the white lettering is pristine. Could the 1911 date be the date of this paint job, and the 07 date is a previous overhaul - hence the painter needing it chalked on as a reminder?

 

Nick.

Edited February 9, 2022 by magmouse

[Compound2632]

What are those various initials? What can happen to a wagon? It can be lifted (new brasses in the axleboxes I think), weighed, or painted? No P.

 

The eye of faith says the 5.7.11 is in fresher paint than 8.10.07.

 

There's no doubt that these wagons had cast G.W.R and number plates when built.

[Miss Prism]

W.R = wagon repaired ????

 

Possibly when the shortie springs were replaced by the long ones ??

 

Edited February 9, 2022 by Miss Prism

[Compound2632]

X = examined? But then W S...

[Siberian Snooper]

WS could be Worcester, there was a wagon works there.

 

 

[magmouse]

Thanks, everyone, of your input and expertise on this.

 

At this point, my feeling is the photo of 76267 (the diagram O4 shown in Russell, GWR Wagons Appendix, p.20) dates from 1911, not 1907 as Russell states. My reasoning goes:

• in the photo, the wagon's paintwork looks very new, quite possibly brand-new.
• the two dates on the solebar are 1907 and 1911. If the 1911 date was in the future when the photo was taken, it seems likely it would be an exact length of time in months/years after the earlier date (perhaps a 'next overhaul due', or some such, after a fixed period). Otherwise, why write a future date on the wagon?
• It seems to me most likely the 1911 date records the recent overhaul, including repaint, and the 1907 date is from an earlier overhaul, maintenance or modification. The seemingly chalked copy of the 1907 date on the plank work would be a reminder to the painter of the date to be painted, since this would have been lost during the repaint, but presumably recorded in the wagon's documentation. No need for a reminder for the second date, since it would be the current date at the time of painting.
• A 1911 date for the photo fits better with what we think we know about long door springs and reversible brake shoes. It also seems a reasonable time for a major overhaul, repaint and update for a wagon built 1902-04 (7 to 9 years).

On this basis, and unless anyone wants to offer a compelling counter-narrative, I will complete my model with non-reversible brake shoes (out with the file) and short springs. In this case, short springs on both sides, as per the photo of 12325 on p.14 of the Appendix, and unlike the earlier 4-plank wagons which seem to have had springs only on the non-brake side, with the vee-hanger acting as a stop for the door on the braked side.

 

Nick.

 

 

[magmouse]

Just to prove all this fretting over micro-details from the distant past has some practical outcome, here's the wagon again, now with short door springs, banger plates and non-reversible brake shoes. I have also added the hooks for tying the sheet to under the solebars and on the ends, so it's ready for the printshop.

 

 

 

 

 

Nick

 

Edited April 2, 2022 by magmouse
Edited to replace lost photo.

[Compound2632]

Nicely done. Where's the swan-necked lever?

[Craigw]

This is a pair of them that I have in progress. 

 

Coopercraft sides and ends - I use the 1925 version because the tarpaulin frame on the CC kit is horrible.  Morgan design DC1 underframe. Bill Bedford sprung buffers and long door bang springs. The Tarpaulin mechanism is from Parkside. Before they changed ownership they would sell individual sprues and I purchased a fair few of the moulding from the O11 that had this. Nearly out now so I need to work out an available alternative.

 

They have both been at this stage for a while.  I distracted myself last year with more cat rescue activity and with 14 kittens at present modelling just does not happen!

 

Regards,

 

Craig W

[magmouse]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

Nicely done. Where's the swan-necked lever?

Thanks. I’ve left the swan-neck lever off until after I finish the main painting. I’m using the plastic one that comes with the kit - it’s decent enough, and the WEP etch doesn’t include it, as it is for DC3 brake gear. I’ve cut a notch out of each end so it will clip onto the shafts - a little bit of filler and a touch of paint, and you won’t know the difference. That’s the plan, anyway.

 

Nick.

[magmouse]

@Craigw - those are looking good. Thanks for sharing. Mixing and matching can be a good way to get to the standard you want, though it can get expensive, especially in O gauge.

 

We have a couple of rescue cats, but I’m not sure we could cope with 14 kittens!

 

Nick.

[Compound2632]

9 hours ago, magmouse said:

Thanks. I’ve left the swan-neck lever off until after I finish the main painting. I’m using the plastic one that comes with the kit - it’s decent enough, and the WEP etch doesn’t include it, as it is for DC3 brake gear. I’ve cut a notch out of each end so it will clip onto the shafts - a little bit of filler and a touch of paint, and you won’t know the difference. That’s the plan, anyway.

 

OK makes sense. Having no experience of the 7 mm scale kit I was going by the 4 mm one which has magical brakes - no connection between the brake lever and the brake shaft. I've bodged up a representation of the lever and quadrant from plasticard.

[magmouse]

15 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

OK makes sense. Having no experience of the 7 mm scale kit I was going by the 4 mm one which has magical brakes - no connection between the brake lever and the brake shaft. I've bodged up a representation of the lever and quadrant from plasticard.

The 7mm version has its own issues - the brake shoe / hanger/ push rod moulding is correct for conventional lever brakes, but has the push rods acting in the wrong direction for DC brakes. That was one reason why I replaced that assembly with the brass version from WEP - the CC moulding is quite nice, so rather than hack it about I thought I’d keep it for another use sometime. Have said that, I still ended up having to cut up and reassemble the WEP etch, because the brake shoes were too far from the wheels, and the shoe hangers were at too much of an angle, so it was just as much work as modifying the CC plastic version would have been. Ho, hum…

 

Nick.