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A new 00 Great Western 0-6-0 - PT or ST?


A new 00 Great Western 0-6-0 - PT or ST?  

55 members have voted

  1. 1. If an enterprising RTR manufacturer was to produce a new-tooled 00 RTR model of a Great Western 0-6-0 of 19th century origin in both pannier and saddle tank form which version would you buy?

    • pannier tank
      21
    • saddle tank
      30
    • neither - but I'd really like a 0-4-2T or 2-4-0T!
      11
    • none of the above
      5
  2. 2. Have you also responded to Neal Ball's pannier tank poll?

    • yes
      37
    • no
      18


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It's alright I'm just waiting to find a M&L/Gibson kit or to see if they do another run of them.

 

Already got the plates for one as I got them in a joblot a few years ago when eBay still had "real" bargains. Someone was doing joblots of about ten mixed plates for something daft like a fiver. Most were normal engines such as 45XXs and 57XXs, but there was a few oddities. ISTR there was also a Metro tank in there as well as an 1854.

 

 

Jason

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Well the 1813 class is the obvious subject - they existed in side tank, saddle tank and pannier tank form, as well as being the first of the family that ended up with the 57s. I did a little blog feature on the 1813 side tanks, @Mikkel and I did a bit of research on them. 

 

Edited by JimC
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  • Compound2632 changed the title to A new 00 Great Western 0-6-0 - PT or ST?

For me, a GWR modeller of both the 1920s and 1930s, the answer to the main question could not be more straightforward, both. Everyone however is different, so different in fact, that this topic could likely take a few wanderings from coarse, perhaps even deviations.

 

Good fun though and I'll sit quietly waiting for the polls for 517 and Metro to stop by my halt.

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In the meantime, anybody wanting a 2721 saddle has the option of a 3D bodyshell from Stafford Road Works, who market though Shapeways.  There is also a 517 in both half-cab and 57xx-type cab versions; all three look like reasonable quality.  I have several Stafford Road GW bogies, and am pleased with them for whatever that's worth...

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19 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

No side tanks?

 

19 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

You have me there!

Well, here's a great idea for a new GWR side tank - a decent 14XX (or 48XX and 58XX if you like) with a nice body that you can easily remove from it's superbly engineered and running chassis.

 

Not much to ask, Shirley?

 

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6 minutes ago, Captain Kernow said:

 

Well, here's a great idea for a new GWR side tank - a decent 14XX (or 48XX and 58XX if you like) with a nice body that you can easily remove from it's superbly engineered and running chassis.

 

Not much to ask, Shirley?

 

 

Well, that's sort of accommodated for in the third choice for question 1, depending on whether or not you were thinking that was restricted to 19th century, as specified for the 0-6-0s. I have to say I had 517 and Metro in mind - the latter would be timely considering Dapol's Metropolitan & City stock in the earlier livery choices. 

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Decent recent kits for the 517 and small/medium Metros available from SEF and Roxey though. So I personally wouldn't buy one.

 

What we do need is the Large Metro in the 35XX series. They're the type that would have worked with the M&C sets, and lasted until BR (just).

 

But I honestly can't see a RTR manufacturer making them. They also don't have the "cute" factor of the smaller versions.

 

spacer.png

Photo from Wiki but no credit.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GWR_455_Class

 

 

 

Jason

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32 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

Decent recent kits for the 517 and small/medium Metros available from SEF and Roxey though. So I personally wouldn't buy one.

 

There are those that hold that if one draws the Venn diagram of RTR loco purchasers and kit builders, the intersection is small.

 

SEF have an 850 saddle tank - how does that rate?

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47 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

There are those that hold that if one draws the Venn diagram of RTR loco purchasers and kit builders, the intersection is small.

 

SEF have an 850 saddle tank - how does that rate?

 

They have 1854 in Pannier and Saddle Tank variants. However they date back to the 1960s (if not 1950s) and I don't think they are kits that have been revamped since they were Wills kits. Apart from getting an etched chassis.

 

If you are a kit builder who really wants a highly detailed 1854 than it's Brassmaster, but only available as PTs.

 

The 850 was Alan Gibson/M&L and was usually available as a pair with the 633. Another one for searching on auction sites or trying to get one from Gibson.

 

 

Jason

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I have a Wills (SEF) 1854, kindly given my by Philou of this parish.  The chassis is beyond redemption, and my plan is to use a Bachmann 57xx chassis to resurrect it.  It is 'of its time', with whitemetal boiler skirts, and was I believe originally designed to be used with a Triang Jinty chassis, but is I suspect (haven't checked) closer to scale than the Hornby 2721.  I have one of these as well, running on a Baccy chassis, but it is fairly obviously 'too big' if running with 57xx or 8750s on the layout.  SEF do a chassis kit for the 1854 which I might have a go at.

 

Choices of locos on Cwmdimbath are governed by what was allocated to Tondu during the 1948-58 timeframe that the layout is set in.  There are anomalies, as of course not all the engines were there all the time, and my 2721, modelled as 2761, the last of this class at TDU, was withdrawn 31/3/50, so should not apppear at the same time as 8497, not built until 1954, or any of the auto trailers, not allox TDU until the start of the winter 1953 timetable, but I live with this under the authority of Rule 1.  1854 class 1870 is in some ways a better choice than 2761, not being withdrawn until 20/10/50; OTOH it did not arrive at the shed until 27/11/48 (source; BRDatabase).  The only other infomation BRDatabase has about this loco is that it was given a superheated B4 boiler in July 1921, and must have been converted to PT at this time. 

 

Bear with, this is leading eventually to a point (of sorts) germane to the poll and the discussion.  My proposed model of 1870 is going to be a bit of a punt, as I have no idea what the appearance of this loco was in its final couple of years at TDU; she may, for example, have had plain fishbelly or fluted parallel coupling rods, or a full 57xx style cab.  2761 is modelled, as accurately as I can manage from such a compromised start point, thanks Hornby, from photos of her in 'as withdrawn' state on the reception roads at Swindon taken, IIRC, in the summer of 1950, so I'm fairly confident that the working up I have managed to provide for her is correct (but of course the dimensional inaccuracies of the tooling mean that she is always going to be a polished t*rd). 

 

Now, from my pov, 2761 and 1870 are both luxury locos that I want, rather than vital essentials for modelling a semi-fictiitious Tondu valley in my period, like 57xx, 8750, or 4575.  They were getting a bit long in the tooth by this time, replaced by 9649 and 9681 respectively, and very likely spent most of their time within the immediate vicinity of Tondu, as shed or yard pilots, and excusrions up to one of the termini would probably have been rare, if they happened at all.   So, a new RTR of either would certainly attract my interest, but actually using some of my very limited fixed income to buy one is another matter!  An Accurascale might be pushing £200, and it would no doubt be good enoug to be worth that sort of money, but well beyond my ability unless very seriously discounted, and I can see demand being high and premium prices the norm.  I want them, because they are suitable for my location and period, but if I am honest a bit unlikely, and because they are very attractive little engines with a lot of character; I like the 'old lady seen better days' aspect of them.  But there are significant factors that would mitigate in me parting with my beer vouchers. 

 

As I've said before, I am atypical as a modeller and do not expect my needs to be an influence on RTR marketing departments, but this sort of information about how I approach purchasing locos and stock my be of some use to them.   They are clever sods, and know that I  will give them my beer vouchers if I can. 

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1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

....

 

As I've said before, I am atypical as a modeller 

 

 

 

The problem is is that we’re all atypical modellers.  There’s such a diverse range of topics we model, scales, eras that nothing is typical.  If you could determine the modelling of a typical modeller you’d then find that no one Models it!

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A poll about saddle tanks needs a photo of a saddle tank. This is 645 class no 765. Later they got longer saddles, then panniers. Note bowler matching the dome.

 

s-l1600.jpg.f64a0ca949254092667eef03bd129a03.jpg

 

Edited by Mikkel
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47 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

A poll about saddle tanks needs a photo of a saddle tank. This is 645 class no 765. Later they got longer saddles, then panniers. Note bowler matching the dome.

 

image.png.6c1e9a0453477964bcf9053f53f2139b.png

 

 

Any idea where that is? I'm guessing Birkenhead.

 

Compton Hotel, Liverpool is now where Marks & Sparks is. Used to be a hotel from the 1870s to the 1920s.

 

spacer.png

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compton_House,_Liverpool

 

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Nice picture, Mikkel, and better than the version shown in RCTS! I've been noticing how much shorter the cabs were on the initial 645 locos. Some of them were lengthened later, some were left short, even when longer saddle or pannier tanks were fitted. The dome heights also varied on the W3 boiler groups. These early saddle tanks really are a minefield. As RCTS notes on the 645/1501 classes: "It would be difficult to find a comparable series of engines about which less has been written."

 

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7 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

Any idea where that is? I'm guessing Birkenhead.

 

I don't know, but Birkenhead sounds very likely. 

 

 

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there's not a fat lot to go on. 

 

There's a loco shed roof (or maybe goods shed, there are no obvious smoke stacks, just a single chimney) with a clerestory ventilator (is that the correct term, it's not very "clear") in the background, and I would be fairly certain that the advert would not appear within the bounds of a loco depot - so it is likely to have been photographed from a platform.  I guess it might be an electric train shed, such as at Birkenhead Central, but I think the Liverpool platform would appear in shot if that were the case.

 

But why would the good burghers of Birkenhead (of which I was one until moving to Kent some 28 years ago) want an advert for a hotel so close?  Liverpool is only a quick ride on the underground "Train" (never "the tube"!) or a few pennies on the ferry.  That said, the hotel would have been rather grand and presumably offered fine dining.

 

I'm tending to the view that the target audience for such adverts would be a little further afield.  Chester?  North Wales? Shrewsbury area?

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1 hour ago, Simond said:

But why would the good burghers of Birkenhead (of which I was one until moving to Kent some 28 years ago) want an advert for a hotel so close?  Liverpool is only a quick ride on the underground "Train" (never "the tube"!) or a few pennies on the ferry.  That said, the hotel would have been rather grand and presumably offered fine dining.

 

I'm tending to the view that the target audience for such adverts would be a little further afield.  Chester?  North Wales? Shrewsbury area?

 

Or perhaps those coming off ships docking at Birkenhead?

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