London 'A-Set' 1930s (diagrams?)

[Forward!]

Hi all,

 

In the 1935 carriage working book there is reference to a London "A Set" comprised of:

 

Van Third (6 compartments)

First (8 compartments)

Third (9 compartments)

Van Third (6 compartments)

 

Indicative example of a route this set was assigned to is outer London cross-country services such as Paddington-Oxford.

 

Would anyone be able to suggest the likely diagrams for these?

 

Will

Edited February 18, 2022 by Forward!

[Neal Ball]

1 hour ago, Forward! said:

Hi all,

 

In the 1935 carriage working book there is reference to a London "A Set" comprised of:

 

Van Third (6 compartments)

First (8 compartments)

Third (9 compartments)

Van Third (6 compartments)

 

Indicative example of a route this set was assigned to is outer London cross-country services such as Paddington-Oxford.

 

Would anyone be able to suggest the likely diagrams for these?

 

Will

 

The best people to answer the question is @Miss Prism and/or @The Stationmaster.

 

Have you looked at the Pendon website? They have a four carriage Oxford to Reading local train running, together with a five carriage Paddington to Oxford service. Details of both are in the friends place area of the website>

 

The four carriage train is from 1935 and comprises (Apologies the table format has been lost):

 

Engine: GWR 2-6-2T “Large Prairie” 6100 class No. 6138 

DescriptionDiagramLivery

GWR 60’ SPIII Non-gangway Van Third
D109Totem

GWR 60’ SPIII Non-gangway CompositeE141Totem

GWR 60’ SPIII Non-gangway Van ThirdD109Totem

GWR 60’ SPIII Non-gangway ThirdC63Totem

 

The five carriage train are clerestories and model the train as it was in 1927.

 

If you are not a member of Pendon, it might be worth joining. https://pendonmuseum.com 

 

I should have added that the pages for the two trains have full details of the working, together with photos of the models and also the prototypes. 

 

Hope that helps.

 

 

Edited February 18, 2022 by Neal Ball
Additional information

[Miss Prism]

2 hours ago, Forward! said:

Van Third (6 compartments)

First (8 compartments)

Third (9 compartments)

Van Third (6 compartments)

 

There was an 8-compartment 1st diagram A12 (a Toplight). Other Toplight candidates for the 1st are A9 and A15. I'm not sure the GWR was too bothered if the number of compartments in the 1st was different from 8.

 

The Brk 3rds and 3rds could be almost anything. 

 

Edited February 18, 2022 by Miss Prism
typo

[Penrhos1920]

In 1935 the GWR only had 70 8 compartment firsts.  They were to diagrams A9, A10, A12, A13 and A15.  All corridor toplights.

 

The only 9 compartment corridor thirds were Dreadnoughts to diagram C24.  There were numerous 9 compartment non-corridor thirds but most were allocated outside London, eg South Wales and Birmingham.  But there were some C43s, C63s and C66s.  The only 6 compartment brake thirds are non-corridor and as @Miss Prismsays there are numerous options, too many to contemplate!

 

[Forward!]

Thanks all,

 

I should have been clearer on reflection. It was the specific reference to a first that intrigued me as nothing much jumped to mind. "A Set" appears in a few places in the carriage working and I should also note (in 1935 at least) it is described in the introduction as something different to a "Standard London Suburban Set" which is composed of a much more familiar van-third, compo, compo, van third arrangement. The books notes the to formations were interchangeable, and the way they are tabulated makes it clear the intention was to provide for approximately the same ratio of 1st:3rd compartments in both sets.

 

I wonder what they meant my it? A corridor toplight sandwiched in a non-corridor train? Maybe I'm just getting too hung up on the letter of the diagram book- I should add that I am a real novice when it comes to seriously attempting to model prototypical train formations.

 

I must admit the only reason I am really interested is one of these "A-Sets" spent the day shuttling between Paddington, Oxford, Dicot and Reading, but at one point during the day it escaped down the Fairford branch only as far as the station I happen to model- Bampton (Brize Norton). I wonder if the chaps at Oxford just wanted to get it out of the way for a couple of hours in the middle of the day!

 

Will

Edited February 18, 2022 by Forward!

[Penrhos1920]

On 18/02/2022 at 10:39, Forward! said:

Hi all,

 

In the 1935 carriage working book there is reference to a London "A Set" comprised of:

 

Van Third (6 compartments)

First (8 compartments)

Third (9 compartments)

Van Third (6 compartments)

 

 

Does the carriage working programme say that they are corridor or non-corridor?  We know that the set it ‘replaces’ is non-corridor.  An X or + next to it usually means corridor 

[The Stationmaster]

From September 1941 (if not earlier) strengthened A Sets (+2 additional vehicles) and City Sets were all treated as Q sets and were treated as a single pool for diagrammed working.  This tends to suggest that A sets may well not have been gangwayed because, as we know - City Sets definitely weren't gangwayed.

 

While things might well have changed in post-war years the normal working at Old Oak Common and West London was simply to try to match the required number of seats/compartments when forming trains (and sets) or replacing vehicles.  Obviously any route availabliity restrictions and requirements for gangwayed etc vehicles, plus the orientation of brake ends (unless specifically exempted) were taken into account.

 

I'll check the 1937 London coach working to see if I can glean any further information.  Anfd that does not show A sets as gangwayed although it does show  some of the 'London Four-Coach Suburban Sets' as being formed with gangwayed vehicles - these sets officially were 4 passenger vehicle but they varied on some workings such as News trains.  Their basic formation differed from A Sets in that the intermediate vehicles between the two Brake Thirds were Compos instead of a First and Third which gave them an extra 10 3rd Class seats.

Edited February 21, 2022 by The Stationmaster
Addendum - 1937 Coach working information.

[Coach bogie]

Some of the Paddington Oxford services ran via Princes Risborough and Thame. I am not at home with my material, but from memory stock was often non corridor in the 30's/40's. 

 

Mike Wiltshire

[CEINEWYDD]

I have just dug out GWRJ no 55, which has an article by John Copsey which confirms that in the 1930's the make up of 'A' sets was van 3rd, third, first, third , van third ( all '8 - wheel) and approximately 20 sets operated.   The normal Fairford train was an 'M set' of 6 wheelers, of van, third, compo, compo, third, van. 

 

Unfortunately , despite it being a fascinating article no coach diagrams are quoted - or at least not in a cursory look!  Sorry.      

[Forward!]

Thanks for that Ceinewydd, very much appreciated!  Good to have the confirmation of the composition of an 'A' set even if an appropriate all-first diagram candidate remains rather elusive! Interesting stuff about the 'M' sets too, I still haven't managed to pin down the exact year that the 6-wheel sets gave way to the bogie stock on the Fairford branch, but I suspect it was quite late.

 

Will

[CEINEWYDD]

I have had a further perusal (!!) of the GWRJ  issues 20 & 55.  Unfortunately as John Copsey's article is sadly lacking regarding dates I am unable to add anything useful in that regard.  However looking at both articles, it does seem that most (if not all) the 'A' and 'C' sets are non corridor but I am not an expert at all.

 

The only additional piece of info. I can add from these articles is about the the 'C' sets where it states that the toplight stock in the local 'C' sets  no s 1 to 6 were as follows:

D62/ C37/E101/E101/C37/D62.  

Set no 7 was different - sets 8 and 9 were the same as each other, but differed from 1 to 7. 

I guess that the 'A' sets could also have varied so the 'firsts' in those could have varied too. 

 

I have also checked  'Harris'. The only info I can find on a quick look, is that on P82 a reference to Suburban sets as being 61ft 4.5 inches in 1930 to 1933. In the 'Lot' list at the rear of the book, refers to Lot 1456 in May 1931 20 coaches to E141 were built "to form London Area Sets".

  All in all totally NBG !  

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