Highland Railway 'Jones Goods' 4-6-0 in 00

[pH]

On 25/02/2022 at 14:19, AlfaZagato said:

The green makes the loco look Bavarian.

 

Any idea when the shift between the two LMS Blacks happened?   I try to collect for 1933 now.

The change happened in 1928. So up to and including 1927 - ‘early’. 1928 and after - ‘late’ . However, the version in unlined early black (17920) was a late repaint in that scheme and retained it until withdrawn in 1937.

[uax6]

They had both all flanged and middle flangeless drivers across the fleet, although the model clearances for all flanged is probably too tight, and again would probably restrict them getting around trains set curves.... 

 

Andy G

Edited February 27, 2022 by uax6

[drt7uk]

If anyone is at the exhibition this weekend and speaks to Rapido be great if you could ask them *roughly* when they think these brilliant locos will be finished and delivered to them.

[rapidoandy]

There is no definitive date at present but we are hopeful for spring next year.

 

We are finishing the design as we speak and will then go to tooling. When this is received and inspected we will announce the orderbook deadline. When that is reached we will close it off and go straight into production.

 

Andy

[daltonparva]

Can anyone give dates for the 2 late LMS liveries?  My books are a but woolly on this, did some get lined and some not, or were they all plain then lined, or lined first then repainted plain? Mercy buckits a la respondez vou-ers.

[Synch]

6 hours ago, daltonparva said:

Can anyone give dates for the 2 late LMS liveries?  My books are a but woolly on this, did some get lined and some not, or were they all plain then lined, or lined first then repainted plain? Mercy buckits a la respondez vou-ers.

 

The early livery is the LMS plate on the cabside with large tender numerals, this was the painting style up until 1928 when smaller letters were utilized, number on the loco and LMS on the tender; the lined black was carried by at least 4 of the class after 1928, Lochgorm had a fascination for painting some of their own engines somewhat above their station(!).  As a result the lined and unlined post 1928 schemes could actually be seen running side by side.

I have the Essery and Jenkinson LMS Liveries series and have put their information for the LMS liveries below, for just 15 engines there was a good amount of variation (though given the variation in lettering size and color on the LMS this isn't terribly surprising).

 

Original Condition, Jones Chimney/Wingplates:

 

 - Code C1 (Pre 1928 Standard Plain Black, 18 Inch Numerals, Cab/Bunker Panel)     17916-8/20-2/4-5/7-30 (17916 recorded as having a short chimney)
 - Code B5 (Post 1927 Standard, Gold/Black Insignia, 10 Inch Numerals, Lined)      17919/26/8/30

 - Code C13 (Post 1927 Standard, Gold/Black Insignia, 10 Inch Numerals)   17917-8

 

Later Condition, Wingplates Removed + Drummond Chimney:

 

 - Code C1 (Pre 1928 Standard Plain Black, 18 Inch Numerals, Cab/Bunker Panel)     17920 (Retained this livery until withdrawal in 1937)

 - Code C15 (Post 1927 Standard, Gold/Black Insignia, 14 Inch Numerals, Midland Pattern)   17916-7/23-5/7/9-30

 - Code C14 (Post 1927 Standard, Gold/Black Insignia, 12 Inch Numerals)   17926  

[daltonparva]

13 minutes ago, Synch said:

 

The early livery is the LMS plate on the cabside with large tender numerals, this was the painting style up until 1928 when smaller letters were utilized, number on the loco and LMS on the tender; the lined black was carried by at least 4 of the class after 1928, Lochgorm had a fascination for painting some of their own engines somewhat above their station(!).  As a result the lined and unlined post 1928 schemes could actually be seen running side by side.

I have the Essery and Jenkinson LMS Liveries series and have put their information for the LMS liveries below, for just 15 engines there was a good amount of variation (though given the variation in lettering size and color on the LMS this isn't terribly surprising).

 

Original Condition, Jones Chimney/Wingplates:

 

 - Code C1 (Pre 1928 Standard Plain Black, 18 Inch Numerals, Cab/Bunker Panel)     17916-8/20-2/4-5/7-30 (17916 recorded as having a short chimney)
 - Code B5 (Post 1927 Standard, Gold/Black Insignia, 10 Inch Numerals, Lined)      17919/26/8/30

 - Code C13 (Post 1927 Standard, Gold/Black Insignia, 10 Inch Numerals)   17917-8

 

Later Condition, Wingplates Removed + Drummond Chimney:

 

 - Code C1 (Pre 1928 Standard Plain Black, 18 Inch Numerals, Cab/Bunker Panel)     17920 (Retained this livery until withdrawal in 1937)

 - Code C15 (Post 1927 Standard, Gold/Black Insignia, 14 Inch Numerals, Midland Pattern)   17916-7/23-5/7/9-30

 - Code C14 (Post 1927 Standard, Gold/Black Insignia, 12 Inch Numerals)   17926  

Thanks for your response.

I have just the same source as you, but if you look at Rapido's list no 24 (lined) isn't one of the 4 mention lined ones but does come in as C15 in the later list of plain black; no 17 (Plain) is mentioned as 2 different plain black liveries (C13, C15). I want to know which I can justify for late 1930's.

 

[pH]

1 hour ago, daltonparva said:

… if you look at Rapido's list no 24 (lined) isn't one of the 4 mention lined ones …

Essery and Jenkinson say (of 17928) “… one of at least four ‘Jones Goods’ known to have received a lined black ‘intermediate’ livery’ “ (my italics). That leaves open the possibility that there were more than four. 
 

Given that this is Rapido producing the model, I would be fairly confident they have evidence 17924 carried that colour scheme.

[pH]

2 hours ago, daltonparva said:

… no 17 (Plain) is mentioned as 2 different plain black liveries (C13, C15). I want to know which I can justify for late 1930's.

 

The model of 17917 has a Drummond chimney and no wingplates. According to Essery and Jenkinson, 17917 was in livery C15 when in that physical condition. Again, according to them, the chimney and wingplate changes were made to members of the class between 1925 and 1937. So the model represents 17917 at least  from 1937 onwards. 17917 was withdrawn in November 1939.

[scots region]

Well I've gone for 103 (no sound) and 106 (with sound).

[rapidoandy]

Regarding the lining on 17924 the Highland Railway Locomotives Book 1 Early Days to the Lochs states:

 

‘ The second style, with ‘LMS’ on the tender and number on the cab side, was first applied, probably at Lochgorm, in 1928-28 to 17917/8/9/24/6/8/30, all of which received red lining and 10in numerals.'

 

Andy

[pH]

51 minutes ago, rapidoandy said:

‘ The second style, with ‘LMS’ on the tender and number on the cab side, was first applied, probably at Lochgorm, in 1928-28 to 17917/8/9/24/6/8/30, all of which received red lining and 10in numerals.'

So “at least four” = “seven”!

[Jammy2305]

I know the artwork is subject to change, but am I correct in thinking that the Jones II livery (1890's livery carried by No.106) is meant to feature a white cab roof and that it was Drummond who changed it to black?

[rapidoandy]

6 minutes ago, jamesC37LG said:

I know the artwork is subject to change, but am I correct in thinking that the Jones II livery (1890's livery carried by No.106) is meant to feature a white cab roof and that it was Drummond who changed it to black?

Well here is a quandary. Some descriptions say white while others don’t. Likewise period photos show a mixture (not just sooty). We have a few good photos of 106 on this livery and I’m fairly certain it’s a painted dark colour cab roof. The Highland Railway Society experts have also been over it and say there is no definitive answer either way in records - so we took the photos as the best bet.

[Compound2632]

Possibly: white lead paint going black over time, a lead sulphide being formed in the presence of atmospheric hydrogen sulphide pollution - not dirt but a chemical reaction.

[rapidoandy]

I did wonder about that - I have a thing about paint. However one of the photos we have shows the loco nearly new and I (personally) doubt it would have chemically changed within months.

[daltonparva]

3 hours ago, rapidoandy said:

Regarding the lining on 17924 the Highland Railway Locomotives Book 1 Early Days to the Lochs states:

 

‘ The second style, with ‘LMS’ on the tender and number on the cab side, was first applied, probably at Lochgorm, in 1928-28 to 17917/8/9/24/6/8/30, all of which received red lining and 10in numerals.'

 

Andy

That means no. 17 was lined first, then:-

4 hours ago, pH said:

The model of 17917 has a Drummond chimney and no wingplates. According to Essery and Jenkinson, 17917 was in livery C15 when in that physical condition. Again, according to them, the chimney and wingplate changes were made to members of the class between 1925 and 1937. So the model represents 17917 at least  from 1937 onwards. 17917 was withdrawn in November 1939.

later on was plain. I'll have that one then, but if you can convince me no. 24 lasted 'till late 30's with lining I'll have 2.

[Corbs]

A couple of photos of a nearly-new 108 with the large snowplough mentioned earlier, hence the additional lamp bracket on the chimney. 106 and 108 were so fitted.

 

https://www.ambaile.org.uk/asset/11684/1/EN11684-hr-108-with-snowplough/

https://www.ambaile.org.uk/asset/11685/

[Compound2632]

11 hours ago, rapidoandy said:

I did wonder about that - I have a thing about paint. However one of the photos we have shows the loco nearly new and I (personally) doubt it would have chemically changed within months.

 

Yes, I think that sounds to rule that suggestion out. the Highland hardly ran through the most polluted districts!

[The Stationmaster]

12 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Possibly: white lead paint going black over time, a lead sulphide being formed in the presence of atmospheric hydrogen sulphide pollution - not dirt but a chemical reaction.

White lead paint yellows fairly rapidly as well as dirt taking effect so the result would have been a sort of mucky grey - rather like the way white lead went on carriage etc roofs.

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, The Stationmaster said:

rather like the way white lead went on carriage etc roofs.

 

The identical process, in fact. 

[Jammy2305]

15 hours ago, rapidoandy said:

I did wonder about that - I have a thing about paint. However one of the photos we have shows the loco nearly new and I (personally) doubt it would have chemically changed within months.

 

Any chance you'd be able to share said photo? (I'm not in any way questioning what you're saying, it sounds pretty conclusive and that's good enough for me! I'm just genuinely interested for the purposes of my own learning).

[GeoffBird]

Does the green liveried 1890`s version really not have any "Highland Railway" markings?

[Jammy2305]

17 minutes ago, GeoffBird said:

Does the green liveried 1890`s version really not have any "Highland Railway" markings?

 

Indeed! Company insignia wasn't included until after Drummond came into office (1896 onwards). 

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, GeoffBird said:

Does the green liveried 1890`s version really not have any "Highland Railway" markings?

 

It wasn't the done thing much before the 1890s, generally. The LNWR held out against labelling their engines until the end, apart from some big tank engines.