KR Models - N Gauge Projects?

[Steven B]

Dear KR Models,

 

Can we please have an update on your N Gauge projects?

 

There are threads here suggesting that the Fell will be shrunk. I'm sure there was also suggestions that GT3 might be produced in N gauge too.

 

Then there's the GWR King.

 

I'm guessing with EFE having taken on the DJM Shark tooling that this won't now be seen from KR Models.

 

Can we please have an update? I've checked the website, I've expressed interest in models, I believe I've signed up to newsletters but have yet to receive a single one.

 

Steven B.

[woodenhead]

If you watch the Jenny Kirk (Jenny Emily on here) interview you will hear from Keith Revell - the interest levels for N gauge proposals are at about 50% of what they need to be in order to proceed.

 

At that rate, I don't think we'll be seeing anything too soon.

 

 

[RichardT]

Just my anecdotal view (like most people on these frothing threads) but I feel that there is less appetite in N gauge for weirdy one-offs. N is suitable to portraying much more of the “whole railway” and what it’s short of is (well, everything really) core locos and stock to populate representative layouts.  The over-indulged 4mm sector (Bitter? Moi?) has many more collectors who buy oddities for their display value. And, it has to be said, 4mm is a better scale for a display model than 2mm. I’d have a small bet that most KR GT3s and Fells will spend most of their lives on a shelf.  However,  if KR produced a decent V2, or Crab, or Saint or King Arthur in N…. (Or even some rolling stock!)

 

Richard

Edited March 3, 2022 by RichardT
Sarcasm

[Calnefoxile]

1 hour ago, woodenhead said:

If you watch the Jenny Kirk (Jenny Emily on here) interview you will hear from Keith Revell - the interest levels for N gauge proposals are at about 50% of what they need to be in order to proceed.

 

At that rate, I don't think we'll be seeing anything too soon.

 

 

And of course the lack on interest in KRModels N Gauge range has got nothing to do with 'Short arms & long pockets' comments that came out of KRModels has it??

[Chris M]

The list of mainstream models missing in N is very long. Some of the more obvious- King, 63xx, large prairie, West Country (rebuilt and unrebuilt), Princess Royal and class 45. Of the slightly more quirky locos I think a D600 could be successful. It’s a shame we are getting two 59s when one would have been sufficient.

 

We will have to see how the Rapido Co-Bo sells. I hope it does well but it just doesn’t feel like the right choice of loco for me. Very restricted field of operation, short lived and never much loved. I think a D600 might have  been a better because it would fit well with all the Westerns, Hymeks, 22s and Warships that adorn many folks layouts even though of course they rarely ventured out of Cornwall after their first year or so in service.

Edited March 3, 2022 by Chris M

[PaulCheffus]

Hi

 

As an 2mm / N Gauge modeller quite frankly I have no interest in anything they might want to propose having seen the results of their models in OO.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[RichardT]

49 minutes ago, Calnefoxile said:

 

And of course the lack on interest in KRModels N Gauge range has got nothing to do with 'Short arms & long pockets' comments that came out of KRModels has it??

I must have missed that! Possibly not too well-judged a remark.

 

5 minutes ago, PaulCheffus said:

Hi

 

As an 2mm / N Gauge modeller quite frankly I have no interest in anything they might want to propose having seen the results of their models in OO.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

I did kind of half-think this Paul, but decided to be discreet/cowardly (delete as appropriate).

 

Richard

[Steven B]

23 hours ago, RichardT said:

Just my anecdotal view (like most people on these frothing threads) but I feel that there is less appetite in N gauge for weirdy one-offs.

 

Asking for an update is hardly frothing...

 

Farish managed to sell Deltic DP1 without too much trouble, and the LMS Twins were well supported the last time the annual Wish List Poll included N Gauge:

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/116458-results-the-wishlist-poll-2016/

Scoring higher than any other locomotive other than a SR N15.

 

There are plenty other locos I'd rather see than anything KR Models have announced todate. That said, given the choice of a GT3, Fell or King from KR Models or nothing I'd choose the models.

 

Steven B.

Edited March 4, 2022 by Steven B

[RichardT]

2 hours ago, Steven B said:

Asking for an update is hardly frothing...

Yes, that wasn’t really a good word to use - apologies. But I’m not aware of KR Models being particularly engaged with communicating via RMWeb. If you’ve asked them directly for an update and had no reply, that’s probably the answer.

 

cheers, Richard

 

 

[RichardT]

2 hours ago, Steven B said:

There are plenty other locos I'd rather see than anything KR Models have announced todate. That said, given the choice of a GT3, Fell or King from KR Models or nothing I'd choose the models.

I sympathise with this approach, and it’s what I’ve done up to now to “encourage” manufacturers to produce for N in the hope that they’ll then make something that actually fits my modelling era.  But I’m not going to do it any longer - it doesn’t work. All it means is that I’ve spent hundreds of pounds on stuff that’s not right for my layout with still no sign of anything much relevant to me (LNER ex NER area) being shrunk from 4mm to N.

 

Richard

[Les1952]

I did discuss N-gauge with Michael at Doncaster.  He said that the King was vastly undersubscribed, to the point that they could not make it without losing heavily on it - and that they were too small to take a loss of the expected size on anything.  He seemed to agree with my suggestion that people who had subscribed for the DJM King were unwilling to put their hands in their pockets a second time.  As one who never got his money back on the DJM King I feel there is a deal of truth there.

 

It didn't occur to me to mention that the project that they could do in N with least risk might be the Palbrick.  In the mean time there is little to no chance whatever of an N-gauge model (especially a loco) from them.  Their corporate pockets aren't big enough.

 

Les

 

[PMP]

21 minutes ago, Les1952 said:

.  He seemed to agree with my suggestion that people who had subscribed for the DJM King were unwilling to put their hands in their pockets a second time.  As one who never got his money back on the DJM King I feel there is a deal of truth there.

 

The fact that they used the DJM CADs and denied they were the DJM CADs, is unlikely to have won them many orders or fans, particularly with that project’s history. The EFE Clayton seems to have been well received and I understand is a decent model, so choosing the right prototype is key to getting N gauge modellers on board. RevolutioN have been able to do it.

[woodenhead]

7 minutes ago, PMP said:

The fact that they used the DJM CADs and denied they were the DJM CADs, is unlikely to have won them many orders or fans, particularly with that project’s history. The EFE Clayton seems to have been well received and I understand is a decent model, so choosing the right prototype is key to getting N gauge modellers on board. RevolutioN have been able to do it.

And the EFE Clayton was also a DJM model.

[PMP]

53 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

And the EFE Clayton was also a DJM model.

It was indeed. And he’d got it to a working EP which some of my 2FS friends viewed and felt it was a very good start. I think the Clayton has that ‘Scottish’ appeal to it as well as a retro appeal to ye olde Lima Clayton owners.
 

The King, doesn’t have that same ‘X factor’ appeal and the 3D print shown at Warley was grim, and there was all the DJM baggage holding it back. Choose the  right class/type e.g class 47, research one example to a high degree, (possibly green to blue 70’s) and the N community might have voted with their wallets. 

Edited March 4, 2022 by PMP
Addition

[Les1952]

2 hours ago, PMP said:

It was indeed. And he’d got it to a working EP which some of my 2FS friends viewed and felt it was a very good start. I think the Clayton has that ‘Scottish’ appeal to it as well as a retro appeal to ye olde Lima Clayton owners.
 

The King, doesn’t have that same ‘X factor’ appeal and the 3D print shown at Warley was grim, and there was all the DJM baggage holding it back. Choose the  right class/type e.g class 47, research one example to a high degree, (possibly green to blue 70’s) and the N community might have voted with their wallets. 

 

Having said that Hornby aren't touching UK N-gauge with a bargepole, Dapol and Farish aren't exactly rushing out new models at the speed of other scales, and of the new entrants Sonic and RevolutioN are honourable exceptions.

 

This probably says as much about UK N-gauge modellers (of whom I am one- my UK N-gauge stock outnumbers all other scales/countries put together) as it does about KR Models......

 

Les

[njee20]

 Not sure I understand your point? Are you saying that N gauge modellers won’t buy new models?

[D9020 Nimbus]

There have been suggestions in the past that transition-era modellers are less likely to subscribe to limited edition models than those favouring more recent eras. A few years ago, Revolution asked for expressions of interest in an N gauge class 21/29 — a model which I (having an interest in the West Highland line) would have very much liked — the class 29s had, during the period 1968-72, almost a monopoly on services. Unfortunately not enough people were interested. 
 

But there were enough expressions of interest for the class 320/321 suggested at the same time (ISTR) to go ahead. Note that the class 21/29 has been offered in OO, but the 320/321 haven't…

[woodenhead]

The 128s are not modern and covered transition, they reached enought interest to go to tooling.

[Les1952]

23 hours ago, njee20 said:

 Not sure I understand your point? Are you saying that N gauge modellers won’t buy new models?

 

They do, but not enough of them to guarantee that newly entering manufacturers stay in business.

 

Les

Edited March 5, 2022 by Les1952
typo

[njee20]

 Surely that’s volume of modellers, not volume of models each one buys? Given the speed with which N gauge releases tend to sell out, I think the bigger issue is that OO is just a bigger pie, so why would a manufacturer opt for a riskier N gauge model versus just another OO gauge model?

 

That said brands who say “we want to do N” and then just leave announcements to wither and die are not helpful at all. 

[grahame]

On 04/03/2022 at 20:43, PMP said:

 

The King, doesn’t have that same ‘X factor’ appeal and the 3D print shown at Warley was grim, and there was all the DJM baggage holding it back. 

 

Yep, the King probably wasn't an inspired choice in N (as already mentioned). It's another lookey-likey GWR loco in an already crowded sector (plenty of other RTR GWR locos and kits available) and there was (admittedly not a great model and not DCC) a King once produced as RTR which would at least sated some demand (especially those who didn't want to spend a lot of money simply replacing something they already have). And wasn't DJM struggling to get sufficient orders/deposits for their attempt.

 

Revolution have managed to select subjects that were pre-ordered in sufficient quantities (when they needed to ensure sufficient demand before proceeding like KRM) and to get them to production. Perhaps KRS need a re-think on what to offer in N. But a lot of failed N gauge projects won't help their reputation going forward.

 

 

 

Edited March 6, 2022 by grahame
Tidy

[Chris Higgs]

On 04/03/2022 at 20:43, PMP said:

It was indeed. And he’d got it to a working EP which some of my 2FS friends viewed and felt it was a very good start. I think the Clayton has that ‘Scottish’ appeal to it as well as a retro appeal to ye olde Lima Clayton owners.
 

The King, doesn’t have that same ‘X factor’ appeal and the 3D print shown at Warley was grim, and there was all the DJM baggage holding it back. Choose the  right class/type e.g class 47, research one example to a high degree, (possibly green to blue 70’s) and the N community might have voted with their wallets. 

 

Hmm, well if you are a diesel modeller I could imagine you might think that. But the GWR's premier express loco against a diesel prototype that couldn't pull the skin off a rice pudding?

 

I was up to buy a couple, but not to put my money upfront a second time, having lost it the first time around...

 

Chris

[Chris M]

Yes the king episode has left a nasty taste. I would still like to have a word with Dave Jones about the money he had off me when he must have known the business was about to go belly up. I too don't think KRM did themselves any favours with the way they went about offering a king. I'm now at the point where I can live without one and don't think about it any more.

 

I can't blame KRM for not going into N if they can't get enough interest. They have to invest where they see the best chance of getting a return on that investment. There are some great N gauge layouts around and some great models are available. To me its about making the most of what is available and enjoying it. Luckily for me I am interested in Western Region so there is plenty of choice for models. In a way I'm glad I don't do 00 any more. With such I wide choice of models I'm sure I would end up spending way too much on items I don't really need.

[Roy L S]

If we are talking locos, I think it is about identifying the right prototype for N and understanding that it won't necessarily mirror what OO modellers are after. for one thing (and I think this may already have been mentioned) there are a lot of "collectors" of OO i.e. those whose models will remain in their boxes or in cabinets. I am not convinced that the same is true of N to anywhere near a similar extent. 

 

Then, the N market is probably about a quarter to a fifth the size of N so any selection of model will have to have a wider appeal in the smaller Market, meaning less "niche". I doubt very much a GT3, Fell or the one-off larger Clayton prototype would fit that bill. The "King" would have appeared a good choice perhaps, but as Grahame has said, with Hall, Grange, Manor and Castle all available plus the "baggage" from the DJM King debacle the model would appear tainted. 

 

So, what to go for? I would say for steam something like a ROD 2-8-0, an Ivatt "Flying Pig" Mogul, or in diesel/electric terms maybe a "Baby Deltic" 304 EMU or possibly a Hastings DEMU, all unlikely to be covered by a mainstream manufacturer but likely to still appeal to a wide enough N audience.

 

Of course the key question is whether KR would entertain an N model as a stand alone project and only they will know the answer to that.

 

How about testing the water with a wagon and what about the Palbrick? Never available RTR in N, no kits either apart from a 3D print body for a Peco chassis, all the CAD work done for the OO variant, likely to attract multiple purchases by single buyers if the price point is right....

 

Roy

 

 

[PMP]

12 hours ago, Chris Higgs said:

 

Hmm, well if you are a diesel modeller I could imagine you might think that. But the GWR's premier express loco against a diesel prototype that couldn't pull the skin off a rice pudding?

 

I was up to buy a couple, but not to put my money upfront a second time, having lost it the first time around...

 

Chris

Anyone who lost money has my sympathy. I don’t think the King (for KR) was a good choice of GW locomotive and at that specific time probably not good for anyone. The Clayton has always had an ‘X factor’ despite the woeful prototype. It’s done well in OO/O and the same prototype restriction applies in both scales. Had KR kicked off with an N gauge GW Mogul for example, they may have had a very different response. 
 

(nb I’ve just realised that a GW mogul was a DJM announcement, but no development as such occurred, apart from members here assisting with research)

Edited March 6, 2022 by PMP