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Hornby HST (3 Pole Ringfield) - Conversion to dual powered bogies, DCC Sound and cosmetic updates.


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Having looked at the cost of the new Hornby HSTs, and even more recent ones available on a well know action site, I am reluctant to pay a significant sum for only marginal cosmetic improvements and a different drive mechanism.   On my planned layout representing a section of the west country mainline and a small branch line station, the HSTs will simply be speeding through so the cosmetics are not that important whilst the ability to pull 7 of the newer Hornby Mk3 coaches and the dummy power car is critically important.   The 3 pole Ringfield will probably not handle it, nor the CD motor conversions. What is required is a more powerful centrally mounted motor driving 2 bogies.  Bachmann and others have a range of drive motors and driven bogies on to which the bogie frame simply clips and spares are readily available.   So the concept at this stage is to procure the drive motor and suitable bare bones power bogies and then figure out a way to mount everything on the existing chassis .  If I use the existing bogies frames them mounting arrangement already exist.  in addition, there will be modification to the running lights to provide separate white and red beams, the fitting of DCC sound and cosmetic updates like overhead flashes, cab detail and lights.   Sounds expensive but a quick look at costs so far, including the procurement of an original HST in VGC and a twin Valenta DCC kit with Mega Bass speakers, puts the final cost at around £150, somewhat cheaper than £400~£500.  Oh, and it will be in EM gauge..!

 

I am just at the start of the project but will give regular updates.

 

In the interim, any thoughts and guidance most welcome.

 

Patrick

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The old Hornby Ringfield motor was very similar to the lima pancakes in performance IMHO. With correct weighting, removal of horrible traction tyres (which involved new wheelsets) and attention to correct back-to-backs, I was able to get a 7 car around the club layout back in the day - but only pulling. Oh and the bogies on the MK3 coaches were heavily modified with brass bearings.

Any decent modern diesel chassis with a central motor, drive shafts and a flywheels could be used as a doner and would definitely be a better option, especially if you are DCC.

Good luck. I look forward to your posts!

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I have recently motorised the dummy car with a CD motor kit, as well as the driving car, and added extra weight to both. I have not run the same amount of coaches as described above, but performance was very acceptable. Maybe an alternative.

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First of all, thank you to all who have given guidance and advice, much appreciated. 

 

I have decided to go down the repowering route using the bogies and motor unit from the most recent HST models.   I will need to manufacture a mounting plate for the motor drive and the powered bogies and will probably fabricate using a single piece of aluminium; or possibly brass to add extra weight.  The drive shafts should be the correct length but they can be replaced with those of a more suitable length if so required.  Bogies and motor drives on order and some parts have arrived.  The existing chassis will be modified to accommodate the new powered bogie at the front.

 

As I am converting to EM gauge I am simply going to replace the existing 2mm axles with longer ones, the benefits of a final drive gear on the shaft, and reuse the same wheels as they look RP25/110 compliant and not too oversized, 2.8mm wide and 0.8mm flange.  I will adjust the back-to-back accordingly to get the right check gauge.  The disc brakes on the bogie are simply 'glued' in position for OO gauge but can be moved out slightly by drilling another mounting hole.

 

Aim to start in a couple of week as I am finishing off another project; 4 x Hornby R758 Hymek DCC Conversions, original not ringfield.  I'll give an update when I start.

 

Patrick

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You may want to check out using old US Athearn "Blue Box" diesel mechs for repowering UK EMU's and DMU'S.

 

The wheel base is close, the central motor and 8 wheel drive power is reliable and more than adequate, spares abound and working suspension is a simple add-on.

 

Andy

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3 hours ago, Andy Reichert said:

You may want to check out using old US Athearn "Blue Box" diesel mechs for repowering UK EMU's and DMU'S.

 

The wheel base is close, the central motor and 8 wheel drive power is reliable and more than adequate, spares abound and working suspension is a simple add-on.

 

Andy

Hi Andy,

 

Thank you for the information.  I have 2 to covert and a spare to sell on if not cannibalised. I may just try your suggestion on the spare.  Had a quick look on eBay and yes, plenty of spares to be had. But I will wait until my next long visit to family in Napa before buying; which is long overdue...!  Might be a local shop with some second hand ones.

 

Thank you once again.

 

Patrick

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Have undertaken all the conversion design work, most of the parts have arrived, so I will making a start on Sunday and hope to complete the powered car by Thursday and upload a test video.   I'll upload relevant images along the way as I make progress.   The solution to bogie mounting proved to be far simpler than I expected.  No special tools are required for the conversation.  In addition to the usual screwdrivers, cutters and soldering items, just a small vice, coping saw, hacksaw & files for aluminium strip and body weight modification and various small drills.  Oh, and a little paint for touching up.  Aside from the bogies, motor unit and DCC sockets, parts wise it is just some 2mm thick aluminium strip, plastic card, EM gauge axles (if converting to EM),  screws, spacers, shims and glues various. 

 

Regards,

 

Patrick

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Made a start on the power car chassis to check clearances.  The rear part of the cab insert of the power car, with its locating arrangement, needs to be removed.  Critical to secure the cab insert in place BEFORE any cutting so that alignment is maintained.  I secured it with M1 x 3mm self tappers.  the required cut marks to provide clearance are visible.  Once the new locating and securing armaments are in place cut the chassis and cab insert separately then reassemble.

 

 

1382684844_PowerCar1(1of3).jpg.d6f46250d4927b2ee58efa7d25fc9e30.jpg

After a few minutes with a coping saw and a file the cuts are compete.  Check to see the chassis and cab insert mate with the body shell correctly.  The new front bogies is offered up to check clearances at the front.  Tight but clear, the photo is misleading.

 

The minimum radius this conversion will undertake is 3ft as it will be EM gauge so bogie rotation will not be as large as that needed to maintain 2nd radius capability.

 

798075218_PowerCar1(2of3).jpg.c1de8945a40b12d246e2e59caaee0c93.jpg

 

 

 

The rear bogie area of the chassis needs no modification.

 

 1145815624_PowerCar1(3of3).jpg.d3267c99033fe14e8181abc3c4a5556e.jpg

 

The five locating lugs for the body shell have been removed and a new securing arrangement will be fitted at the rear of the power car.   The body slides on and off with ease.

 

The next job is the bogie conversion to EM, bogie mounting arrangements and motor raft which I will start next week.

 

Patrick

 

 

 

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Bogie Regauging

 

Prior to fitting the bogies to the chassis it is prudent to re-gauge the wheels to EM and relocate the brake callipers and rail guards.   The first image shows the power car bogies with the original OO gauge rear bogie (left) and the EM gauge front bogie (right ).  The second images is a close up of the EM gauge wheel set.  The original shaft has simply been replaced with a 22.5mm EM gauge one (obtained from the EMGS) and 2mm bore 1mm thick shims placed either side to limit side play. 

 

832267290_BogieEM(1of4).jpg.9651f30a8ae17f9ebf55f92b86ebc9b7.jpg    920577838_BogieEM(2of4).jpg.85b8b0d5fe66b1a64d1a9cb491981d53.jpg

 

The original shaft had a rough area in the middle and on one end to grip the gear wheel and insulated wheel plastic bush respectively, see image. I simply roughed up the centre and one end of the axle using the serrated edge of a file. Simply roll the file edge over the axle on a hard surface very firmly to create a similar effect.

 

 

1307534399_BogieEMShaft(1of1).jpg.eb171454f52fc2366e8b1ca31f679f59.jpg

 

The brake callipers and rail guards, left image below, are simply removed, and new holes drilled to refit.  The original square holes are shown in the second image.  I am unable to find my square drill set so will drill suitable round (1mm) holes and glue in place..!

 

  151995467_BogieEM(3of4).jpg.9d80d5908f2261f9046f9263a166b9c1.jpg  2043584321_BogieEM(4of4).jpg.823395ec487ee2611a3f874e05555712.jpg

 

The disc calliper nearest the bogie frame (left side of block) will need 'pruning' but will not be visible as it is masked by the frame. 

 

Next tasks, tomorrow, are the bogie mounting frames, the motor raft and bogie mounting and height adjustment.  Time permitting, I might DC test the basic chassis on my test track and upload a video.

 

Patrick

 

 

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Bogie and Motor Installation, First Test Run

 

The bogie mounting frames and motor raft have been manufactured.

1568048983_BogieMotorFit(1of6).jpg.d0d36732ba217fa6ce5789899983b8c5.jpg

  

And the bogies and motor installed in the original Hornby chassis. 

 

247947822_BogieMotorFit(3of6).jpg.ef24afe8d9e1bb441584bee231290fa4.jpg

 

 

The loco was then test run on my EM test track at moderate and full speed.  Track is EMGS Bullhead and the turnout is a British Finescale EM B7.

 

Video Link here....  Concept proven...!

 

There is some stiction on starting and I may need to lower the motor raft a millimetre or so.  In addition, the front bogie is too low and I think the more acute angle of the front cardan shaft is the problem,.  Hey ho, all part of first conversions..!

 

 1294405262_BogieMotorFit(4of6).jpg.52200a0290bdc5dd14562ca5e3017ce0.jpg  

 

930955063_BogieMotorFit(6of6).jpg.8e688046aaeb5998b5afbb82097fcb7e.jpg

 

 

I'll be redesigning the motor raft to make it 2mm lower and then modifying the body shell to allow it to fit so I can check power car and coach alignment.  The tall stand offs are for the DCC and speaker raft.

 

Patrick

 

 

 

 

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Motor Raft Redesign

 

I redesigned the motor raft and mounted the motor in the chassis void on its side.,  This brought the Carden shafts almost level. 

 

 984559644_BogieMotorFit(1of1).jpg.8adcf287ce7db8cf11c197ef409625cb.jpg

 

927413076_BogieMotorFit(5of5).jpg.e5c38869ade504b78f41183497e8ddb3.jpg

 

760821010_BogieMotorFit(3of5).jpg.6bbe373718bdcff8300eeff0b23d6c9a.jpg

 

Alas when I tested the new set up, slow speed was still an issue.  It turned out to be a 'bad' bogie gear train; on a brand new bogie.!  Bit of fettling and it is much improved.  Something to watch for in future.  

 

 There is about 12mm clearance to the body shell roof from the top of the raft side and 22mm from the bogies.   Plenty of room for the MegaBass speaker..!

 

 

The loco runs fine and I have removed the ribs and cab wall to allow the body shell to fit.

 

 

I have checked alignment with a recent Mk3 coach, almost perfect on alignment but obviously the colours are slightly different.

 

Next the DCC and speaker rafts and a DCC test with a test decoder, I use LaisDCC decoders to test.    One all is working, including lights, the TTS decoder will be fitted.

 

Stay tuned.!  Just waiting for some more 'sundries' to arrive to complete power car conversion.  Will start on unpowered car conversion now, much less complicated.!  No chassis and little body shell cutting required...! 

 

Patrick

 

 

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Unpower Car Conversion

 

Bogies mounts similar to the powered car but with a 2mm thick plastic card face for the unpowered bogies to be clipped into.   Bogies needed work for EM conversion as space for EM gauge limited so a little reduction of the inside faces of the bogie frames required, simple and only took a few minutes per bogie.   

 

 1846583004_UnpoweredCar(1of6).jpg.caabbf208fb9146b0b901d7c097ff509.jpg

 

 

1028846566_UnpoweredCar(2of6).jpg.33375a7a3d94b58600b7781a8f3c130c.jpg

 

I will be replacing the plastic mating face with an aluminium one now the thickness required is finalised. 

 

1321174568_UnpoweredCar(3of6).jpg.ae2c667a4c145a9e1e6a3c2097a347f9.jpg

  

Critically , the powered and unpowered cars have the same ride height.

 

788549823_UnpoweredCar(5of6).jpg.2b15addf7c3794128cfc905ee6a15a13.jpg

 

523500501_UnpoweredCar(6of6).jpg.62ddb51b8b8ee4fab46c36308845d339.jpg

 

Waiting on some hex standoffs to progress the rafts for the DCC and Speaker rafts for both cars.  Delivery mid next week.

 

Patrick

 

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DCC and Speaker Mounting Rafts

 

The plastic bogie mating faces on the unpowered car has been replaced with  aluminium ones.

 

314547552_Rafts(5of5).jpg.9cad652e4d11faf2dd2e9d1edd2fa5c5.jpg

 

The powered and unpowered DCC and Speaker rafts have been fitted to both cars.  the unpowered car uses 2mm thick aluminium strip.  Vertical space in the powered car is tight so 0.7mm aluminium strip is used.  The brass hex stand offs are 10mm in the unpowered car  and 13mm and 10mm in the powered car. 

 

  1172067652_Rafts(1of5).jpg.9590b734b67f3a8d0382c0c087f37c60.jpg  1326504933_Rafts(2of5).jpg.4b13d788eaf4173739077acfe207ffa5.jpg

 

2053459385_Rafts(3of5).jpg.0515362d42abd6a9a3c62e02c270a367.jpg  823432110_Rafts(4of5).jpg.f521fcdb5faa536e47863b10e3ed7845.jpg

 

 

The additional electronics, DCC sound decoder and MegaBass speakers will be fitted next  followed by the revised running lights and cab lights.

 

Patrick

 

 

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Hello,

 

This is an interesting conversion.  I have about ten locos/DMUs with the old ringfield motors, and it seems a shame to ditch them.  How much did you pay for the bogies themselves, without the motors?

 

John

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8 hours ago, proton said:

How much did you pay for the bogies themselves, without the motors?

 

Hi John,

 

For the newer HST bogies around £8 each plus replacement frames for the powered and unpowered front bogies at £8 each.  The motor is around £12.  Shop around, some sellers charge almost twice as much.   On Ringfield, where possible I am replacing all the 3 pole variants with new driven bogies, the 5 pole variant I will keep.  Where a replacement bogie cannot be found for 3 pole variants I am opting for conversion using CD motor conversion kits for around £15 such as those sold by Strathpeffer Junction.  I have some Lima Class 117s which might be suitable for new bogies rather than a CD motor upgrade.  In all cases I need to factor in the ease and cost of conversion to EM as wheelsets for Ringfield bogies are not cheap.  The newer driven bogies with the final drive gear on the axles allowing new EM axles to be fitted overcomes that problem.   

 

Finally, there is always a market for the old bogies.  I sold the 4 HST bogies for this conversion for around £28 which recovered half the cost of the new parts. 

 

Hope this helps.

 

Patrick

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Hi,

 

Thank you for the feedback.  Just waiting for some more spares parts from a number of sources.  And of course, as ever, work gets in the way...!  Most of the conversion work involves the chassis so it is probably best to obtain a spare chassis, S9684, to convert and then sell on the old chassis and bogies as a complete unit.   Conversion of the body shell is minimal.  Once I have finished the project I will upload a pdf file on how to convert, parts needed and a few techniques used in the conversion.   Probably best to acquire all the parts needed before conversion.

 

Whilst I am awaiting parts I am updating the EM gauge turnouts on my multi gauge test track so that it s ready for test runs of the EM gauge HST (and other EM gauge conversions) through a range of turnouts, diamonds and slips.   For information, the prototypical EM turnouts are self assembly and also come in OO-SF, OO and N gauge as well as 2mm and 3mm through societies.   Takes about an 45~60 minutes to assemble a turnout, no gauges required, just track cutters, file for rail ends and a bit of soldering to add frog droppers.   RMWeb link below.  No link to company, just a grateful end user.  best to start at the latest news as the original kits as been refined several times.

 

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4 hours ago, NFWEM57 said:

Hi,

 

Thank you for the feedback.  Just waiting for some more spares parts from a number of sources.  And of course, as ever, work gets in the way...!  Most of the conversion work involves the chassis so it is probably best to obtain a spare chassis, S9684, to convert and then sell on the old chassis and bogies as a complete unit.   Conversion of the body shell is minimal.  Once I have finished the project I will upload a pdf file on how to convert, parts needed and a few techniques used in the conversion.   Probably best to acquire all the parts needed before conversion.

 

Whilst I am awaiting parts I am updating the EM gauge turnouts on my multi gauge test track so that it s ready for test runs of the EM gauge HST (and other EM gauge conversions) through a range of turnouts, diamonds and slips.   For information, the prototypical EM turnouts are self assembly and also come in OO-SF, OO and N gauge as well as 2mm and 3mm through societies.   Takes about an 45~60 minutes to assemble a turnout, no gauges required, just track cutters, file for rail ends and a bit of soldering to add frog droppers.   RMWeb link below.  No link to company, just a grateful end user.  best to start at the latest news as the original kits as been refined several times.

 

Hi Patrick,

looking forward to the pdf one that will be safely stored away for future reference.

 

Keith

 

Ps. Also staunch supporter of British Finescale as well.

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Have made quite a bit of progress over the weekend and now have the power car running and fully fitted with sound.   My lighting conversion a bit bulky so intend to replace with Black Cat HST lighting boards modified to accept individual  supplies for the LEDs.  Stephen at Black Cat most helpful regarding this modification.   I'll upload more images, a video and a summary tonight.  

 

Patrick

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As promised a video at the link and more detail of the conversion.  The loco 

 

I was not entirely happy with the raft arrangement so I redesigned and fitted to a new chassis, I have a few spares, hence the delay.  I also completed the lighting arrangement but, following discussions with Stephen at Black Cat, I will fit modified version of his product.   The glazing is not yet fitted as I am going to fit flush glaze but the loco is otherwise almost complete.  Next on the list is the unpowered car.  I stay alive will be required as the TTS decoder fitted restarts at very opportunity..!  A few images of the final conversion.

 

Body Shell Removed

 

1786235739_FinalAsssembly(1of10).jpg.4817bb73ec109efce948488e2eeaa979.jpg 1719916713_FinalAsssembly(2of10).jpg.bef9a9ce049cdf3cecbd4d42c63ef7a6.jpg963839274_FinalAsssembly(3of10).jpg.aec6ed5971f8162b92f6b1db181cd688.jpg  1083473336_FinalAsssembly(4of10).jpg.fcc5623c8a103100b1662d7b3ba09d4b.jpg

 

 

On the test track showing independent lighting and a side view. I have yet to add light pipes to the Red LEDs

 

2016134399_FinalAsssembly(7of10).jpg.54407e8f17319f04ab860ebc33f21d3e.jpg  62281627_FinalAsssembly(6of10).jpg.5ed09101d8ae7808ec0027ebd2d959cf.jpg  163159706_FinalAsssembly(10of10).jpg.9ef651b53bd8a1a0c28d67872749495e.jpg

 

 

A little more work to do and a few refinements but good progress so far.

 

Video of the HST running on EM gauge track is here.  The scale speed at the end is around 180 mph.

 

 

 

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Power Car Conversion Complete

 

After a few redesigns, the power car conversion is finally complete.  Intermittent stop start turned out to be a detached pickup within the rear bogies.  The wiring has been replaced with thinner decoder wire and the lighting has been replaced with a back cat module with a common brilliance control for red and white LEDs.  The bespoke PCB has been redesigned to reflect the lighting changes and provide connections for the stay alive.  Only one wire was soldered onto the DCC decoder, the negative connection, as the positive is the same as blue so this is picked up on the PCB.  The stay alive is at the back of the power car and consists of four 2,200 µF electrolytic capacitors, a 220Ω 1/4 watt resistor and a diode.  The body shell is pretty full..!    A few pictures...

 

1442742641_FinalConversion(2of7).jpg.a9c6ce6372e33640bb3429744df1ad7f.jpg  946497878_FinalConversion(3of7).jpg.770c6c6a985a976acea880e739b3d486.jpg

 

Black Cat lighting module, note the blinkers which have been added to prevent overspill.

 

55438092_FinalConversion(5of7).jpg.2a86e306aee8c2db31535a7fea6a344a.jpg 

 

1186888385_FinalConversion(6of7).jpg.791cbf82a92f488c1bf99a9a236d8863.jpg  856098266_FinalConversion(7of7).jpg.9d36ede2f583aadf0f680940ebd3eade.jpg

 

But what did it cost..!?

 

The HST pair cost me £43 including postage on eBay. The Ringfield motor was a non runner but after a few minutes cleaning decades of accumulated grease, oil, track pins and other items, it ran very sweetly.  Sold all the bogies for £28.  So, net cost of power and dummy car, £15.  The new bogies and motor cost £51, the Black Cat lighting module cost £6 each and the MegaBass speakers £8 each. The PCB cost around £4 each, the stay alive cost around £1 each and the wiring another £2.  Materials cost £3.   Total cost £109 plus the twin pack of Hornby TTS decoders for £65; Grand Total £174..!

 

No, its not as detailed as Hornby's latest but my planned layout will be a small station through which the western main line runs and so  you'll have to be quick to be critical...!

 

Finally, with track power removed the loco carries on for around 1.5 seconds with sound and lights. 

 

I will upload a new video tonight showing sound and non sound running; it is pretty quiet with no sound.   I'll also upload some pictures; body shell on to show the lights.

 

Was it worth it, Yes, i think so.  Just the dummy car to complete and wheel changes (to EM gauge) on seven of the latest Mk3 coaches, Farewell Tour.  Then a final video of the load test and an upload of 'how to' PDF.

 

Then I have 2 more EM version to complete for my own use and 2 more OO conversions, without  sound decoder or speaker, to sell on; instructions included.  

 

Patrick

 

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