Ukrainian Railways

[Dava]

Anyone know what special carriage the 3 Presidents used to go from Warsaw to Kiev on 15 March? 

 

This must have been 5 foot gauge for the Ukraine section to Kiev? Or do they change bogies at the border?
Photo of the interior in the BBC pic below.

 

There was also a news item on the lives lost & risks faced by Ukraine railway staff in continuing to run a service east & west across the country. They will need lots of money to rebuild after (hopefully) the war is over.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60757157

 

Dava

[RichardT]

Link to the article on how the Ukrainian railways are coping during the war:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60755198

 

I’ve posted elsewhere that if the NRM are looking for a subject for an exhibition to replace the cancelled Trans-Siberian railway one, they could do worse than to feature this.

 

Richard

Edited March 16, 2022 by RichardT
Phone auto-corrected “NRM” to “BRM”!!

[icn]

On 16/03/2022 at 08:50, Dava said:

This must have been 5 foot gauge for the Ukraine section to Kiev? Or do they change bogies at the border?

Photo of the interior in the BBC pic below.

 

Apparently (so Wikipedia tells me, I can't confirm first-hand): bogie swapping was performed up until 2003 - at that point variable gauge bogies were introduced for at least some trains: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SUW_2000 . But Wikipedia also tells me these trains stopped running in 2016. Nevertheless, other sources confirm that PKP is trying to resurrect this system (last update in 2019). Bogie swapping does sound most likely in this case - or perhaps they just changed trains at the border.

 

There is actually a broad-gauge railway reaching into Poland - the LHS - but it goes nowhere near Warsaw. Apparently some refugee trains ran along the LHS in recent times.

Edited March 18, 2022 by icn

[Coryton]

1 hour ago, icn said:

 

 

There is actually a broad-gauge railway reaching into Poland - the LHS - but it goes nowhere near Warsaw. Apparently some refugee trains ran along the LHS in recent times.

 

And also into Slovakia to serve a steel works.

 

(There was a suggestion of extending it across Slovakia to Austria, but it doesn't look as if it's going to happen).

[flockandroll]

There was an interesting report on CNN about the Ukrainian Railways control and how they keep the railway running. Here is the web article version https://edition.cnn.com/2022/03/14/europe/ukrainian-railways-war-intl-cmd/index.html 

(similar but different to the BBC article linked to by RichardT above)

Edited March 18, 2022 by flockandroll
To add reference to BBC article

[burgundy]

Ukrainian railways in happier times - 2018.

This loco seemed to spend its time shunting around the docks in Odesa.

Best wishes 

Eric 

[RichardT]

And another in the series - a photo—essay in todays Guardian (no paywall) about the Ukrainian evacuation trains and also how the Ukrainian railways are moving to become a substitute artery for imports/exports owing to the loss of sea access at Odessa.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/31/the-people-who-keep-the-refugee-trains-running-out-of-ukraine-photo-essay

 

Inspiring stuff.

 

Richard

[Michael Hodgson]

They are such obvious targets to the invading forces. .  I have nothing but respect for those who are still keepin services running in such circumstances.

 

[Welly]

Saw this French/German video following the staff and passengers on board some of the trains in Ukraine during wartime blackout. No translation but you'll get the feel for the atmosphere there at the moment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kmDFYTtx3A

[apemberton]

I doubt there will be much coverage of UZ border crossings on Youtube for the time being. I used to watch some UZ cab view videos (I forget the publisher's name) but they have disappeared as far as I can tell from youtube. There were a number of videos of western Ukraine where standard (1435mm) gauge reached a considerable distance into Ukraine in parallel, or interlaced with, the 1520mm tracks. Due to only 85mm gauge difference, interlaced tracks are 4 rail. Mixed gauge tracks split near the borders with Poland, Slovakia and Hungary. The last video I watched on PKP metals (around Przemyśl) towards UZ showed the gauge changing facilities virtually disused but there must have been bogie changing facilities for the very limited through coaches. That was before the war though. Freight seems to be transshipped from 1520 to 1435 wagons (and vice-versa) rather than swap bogies.

 

Incidentally there does not seem to be much coverage of UZ on the Ukraine satellite TV channels. Unsurprising really due to security issues. Apart from the propaganda aspect, the coverage shows how truly terrible the people are suffering. Scenes British broadcasters would not show. Slava Ukrainska!

Edited April 17, 2022 by apemberton
Spelling!

[jamie92208]

On 18/03/2022 at 14:14, icn said:

 

Apparently (so Wikipedia tells me, I can't confirm first-hand): bogie swapping was performed up until 2003 - at that point variable gauge bogies were introduced for at least some trains: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SUW_2000 . But Wikipedia also tells me these trains stopped running in 2016. Nevertheless, other sources confirm that PKP is trying to resurrect this system (last update in 2019). Bogie swapping does sound most likely in this case - or perhaps they just changed trains at the border.

 

There is actually a broad-gauge railway reaching into Poland - the LHS - but it goes nowhere near Warsaw. Apparently some refugee trains ran along the LHS in recent times.

There was quite extensive coverage of UZ and the various special trains being run for refugees in the lastest Toys Railways Europe.   It will be very interesting in years to come if UZ decides to go standard gauge as it also appears that the Russians are using mainly rail based logistics support on tracks in areas that they have occupied.  

 

Jamie

[Michael Hodgson]

On 16/04/2022 at 21:58, apemberton said:

I doubt there will be much coverage of UZ border crossings on Youtube for the time being. I used to watch some UZ cab view videos (I forget the publisher's name) but they have disappeared as far as I can tell from youtube. There were a number of videos of western Ukraine where standard (1435mm) gauge reached a considerable distance into Ukraine in parallel, or interlaced with, the 1520mm tracks. Due to only 85mm gauge difference, interlaced tracks are 4 rail. Mixed gauge tracks split near the borders with Poland, Slovakia and Hungary.

 

Sweden and Finland are apparently considering giving up their historical neutrality and seeking to join Nato.  If that happens it will be interesting to see whether Finland also converts from Russian to standard gauge and we see the end of break of gauge at Haparanda.

[jamie92208]

1 hour ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Sweden and Finland are apparently considering giving up their historical neutrality and seeking to join Nato.  If that happens it will be interesting to see whether Finland also converts from Russian to standard gauge and we see the end of break of gauge at Haparanda.

I agree.  The same may wellhappen in the Baltics.  Russia would have a major problem if Lithuania changed. How would it access Kalliningrad.  The EU are already sponsori g standard gauge to the 3 capitals. That may well speed up.  However this is straying   fromUZ and it's current dilemmas. Perhaps a separate thread about gauges and the various lines.

 

Jamie

Edited April 24, 2022 by jamie92208

[pete_mcfarlane]

What are the logistics of gauge conversion? is it possible to lay a third rail with only 3.5 inch difference between the gauges? 

[EddieB]

6 hours ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

What are the logistics of gauge conversion? is it possible to lay a third rail with only 3.5 inch difference between the gauges? 

No, the difference is too small and where the two gauges meet, there are either separate or  interlaced (i.e. four rails) tracks.  Conversion between the two gauges has taken place several times - often quite rapidly - when borders have been redrawn or territories occupied by opposing forces. 

Edited April 24, 2022 by EddieB

[apemberton]

1 hour ago, EddieB said:

No, the difference is too small and where the two gauges meet, there are either separate interlaced (i.e. four rails) tracks.  Conversion between the two gauges has taken place several times - often quite rapidly - when borders have been redrawn or territories occupied by opposing forces. 

German Eisenbahncommando converted tracks to 1435mm right into the Crimea for the period 1942 - 44. It doesn't take long if there is the will and supporting traffic to convert.

 

Lviv, then known as Lemberg, as part of the Austro-Hungarian empire had several 1435 lines converging from Poland. Indeed Lwow and the Carpathians became Polish for a period.

 

The Baltic states are already members of NATO which kind of isolates the Kaliningrad Oblast.

 

Lets hope for peace soon.

[apemberton]

Although not a point about the captioned subject, there is a Youtube cab view video from a 'shed' in Poland where one track is 1435mm and the other 1520. There are mysterious branches into woodlands where a 1520mm track disappears and shortly afterwards a track emerges from the woods and crosses the 1520 to join the 1435mm. Soviet era military transhipment areas?

 

There is also a video (not watched) concerning the UZ/MAV crossing at Chop/Zahony.

[Michael Hodgson]

8 hours ago, apemberton said:

German Eisenbahncommando converted tracks to 1435mm right into the Crimea for the period 1942 - 44. It doesn't take long if there is the will and supporting traffic to convert.

I doubt there was much will on the part of those directly engaged on the conversion work.

[apemberton]

8 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

I doubt there was much will on the part of those directly engaged on the conversion work.

I agree. However, the Soviet Union's collective farm enforcement in Ukraine, and the famine that followed, it is estimated that up to 20 million Ukrainians perished. The Germans were at the very first welcomed as liberators.

 

Lifting a rail and moving it 89mm (the USSR changed from 1524 to 1520 in the fifties and Finland remains 1524 today) inwards without modern machinery did take a lot of manpower as can be seen in photographs of the time. Geometry at switches and crossings must have been a nightmare! In steam days, much of Ukraine was not blessed with a lot of water and that lead to a lot of locomotives being equipped with condensing tenders. These were based on Henschel's design and fitted to many E class and a SO class. The Germans also built a number of Kriegslok with condensing tenders because of the long distances without water in Ukraine (and also destruction of water supplies by partisans).

 

There is quite a lot of information on the Great Patriotic War at https://forum.axishistory.com/index.php

[jamie92208]

There are reports of Russian strikes on Ukrainian rail facilities this morning.  I hope that there are no casualties.

 

Jamie

[EddieB]

It must be remembered that Poland was still divided up between the empires of Prussia, Russia and Austro-Hungary at the outbreak of WWI, each having constructed railways to their respective gauges.  When Russia withdrew from Poland during that war, the other occupiers lost little time in annexing the vacated territory and converting the railways to standard gauge.  By the time Poland became an independent country, and PKP took over its railways, there was no Russian gauge left inside Poland.  A map from the 1920s shows a break of gauge at all border crossings with the Soviet Union (the borders of course much further East than now).

[adb968008]

Just discovered this thread, Ukrainian gauge trains run from Przemsyl, Poland to Kiev and Odessa.  There are border facilities here. No need to change gauge.

The line is double track, with sidings, and loading and extensive yards in the area.

 

I was here with family in February and saw the preparations. We have close family who work as border guards here and the stories heard have been interesting to say the least, but are not really for general consumption, indeed way back in the “breakfast” thread I shared what the family was doing to helping the aid effort before the agencies kicked in.
 

Korczowa has taken over as the main road border, it is also well equipped, There are other railway and road crossings in the area. Transport Into Ukraine isnt all what it seems, but is best left at that at the moment. After the war is over I can probably share more, and if I get the ok, maybe some pictures too.

 

What I can share is that more than one russian drone has crossed the border, indeed one passed over as far as Jaroslaw, a good 10 miles in, but was turned and eliminated on the correct side of the fence back in March, indeed the family in Poland heard the Jaroriv (Yaroriv, Ukraine) attacks very clearly that night.

 

However in addition to unusual business, it is business as usual… people come / go, as do cars, buses, lorries, postal service, those motorbike “couriers” and the no-mans land dodgy trading that gives meaning to “off the back of a lorry”…  etc it all still goes on as it did before.. Trains still head both ways, and are as full of freight leaving as much as they are full going in. I say this with Ukrainian Raspberry Cognac infront of me, and supplies are still good.

 

 

Edited May 6, 2022 by adb968008

[adb968008]

One to add to this,

 

in Poland Pierogi is a food staple. They come in different styles, Potato, Meat, Cheese, cabbage even Strawberry jam (i give that a miss myself).

 

Meat pierogi is known as “Russian pierogi”, at least it was until March and its no longer the right thing to ask for, and you will get looked down on for asking. However if you now ask for  “Ukrainian Pierogi” will get you the very same meaty pierogi… (I like mine fried).

 

just add sour cream, and Maggi. (A light soy ish sauce).

 

 

Edited May 7, 2022 by adb968008

[jamie92208]

Some good news on a BBC report this morning.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-61365365

 

I'm not sure how they've done it but there has been some good work and electrified as well.

 

Jamie

Edited May 8, 2022 by jamie92208

[icn]

20 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Meat pierogi is known as “Russian pierogi”, at least it was until March and its no longer the right thing to ask for, and you will get looked down on for asking. However if you now ask for  “Ukrainian Pierogi” will get you the very same meaty pierogi… (I like mine fried).

Pierogie Ruskie Ukrainskie definitely don't have meat in them - although they can be served with bacon. But indeed I'm seeing the renaming: