Pre-1923 RCH wagon standards

[Skinnylinny]

Hi all,
 

I've been fascinated by wagons and carriages for a while now, and I seem to be developing something of an interest in earlier private-owner wagons. As my layout is set between 1900 and 1910, that really discounts most of the ready-to-run wagons out there. From what I can work out, the Hornby 6-plank wagons are reasonable approximations to Gloucester 1907 15' 6-plankers (at least on the old chassis, before they gained bent V hangers!), albeit with no internal detail. The 3-plank dropsides on the same chassis seem reasonable, also. 
 

In terms of wagon kits in 4mm, there are the Cambrian kits for various builders' bodies (albeit all on Gloucester underframes!), and the Slaters ones (again, Gloucester!) to represent RCH 1907 wagons, but! I'd really like to get some variety in my wagons.

I'm aware that dumb buffers would still have been about in 1900-1910, but in rapidly-diminishing numbers. I'd really like to model some of the earlier wagons. I imagine there are also plenty of variations in bodywork between builders.

References-wise, I've got my hands on the four Bill Hudson Private Owner Wagons books, Private Owner Wagons from the Ince Waggon & Ironworks Co., Private Owner Wagons from the Gloucester Railway Carriage and Wagon Co., Ltd., Private-Owner Wagons by Peter Matthews, Private Owner Wagons of the South-East by John Arkell... 
 

There are some questions I still haven't been able to find concrete answers on, though:
 

- What are the differences between 1887 and 1907 RCH specifications/designs? 
 

- Are there any visible differences between 8, 10, and 12ton wagons, other than potentially the number of leaves in the springs?
 

- Are there any useful sources of drawings of pre-1923 PO wagons beyond the above-listed books? I'm aware of the Pope/Turton Private Owner Wagons, a {n}th Collection books, but from what I can tell these are mainly photo collections. Anything that shows different styles of bodywork, internal details etc would be much appreciated!
 

- Which were the "biggest" PO wagon builders? I know there's a lot of reference material on Gloucester wagons, but that doesn't necessarily translate to them being the most common. Charles Roberts, Gloucester and BRCW seem to be the most common builders in my references, but it also seems to vary depending where in the country one is looking. Hurst Nelson doesn't seem as common in southern England, for example.

Many thanks in advance!

[Miss Prism]

Some drawings of some RCH bits:

https://www.cs.rhul.ac.uk/~adrian/steam/RCHWagons/index.html

 

[wainwright1]

Have a look at 5 & 9 Models. He does quite a good selection of early wagons including a number of dumb buffered ones. Each one seems to be of a different design, so offering quite a bit of variety.

However, these are mostly Southern orientated, although if you find a picture of a wagon you want to make, you will probably be able to use one of these as a basis for it.

 

Hope that this helps.

All the best

Ray

[Skinnylinny]

7 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

Some drawings of some RCH bits:

https://www.cs.rhul.ac.uk/~adrian/steam/RCHWagons/index.html

 

Thank you - I've come across this page before, but unfortunately all the drawings are 1923 or later. 

 

4 minutes ago, wainwright1 said:

Have a look at 5 & 9 Models. He does quite a good selection of early wagons including a number of dumb buffered ones. Each one seems to be of a different design, so offering quite a bit of variety.

However, these are mostly Southern orientated, although if you find a picture of a wagon you want to make, you will probably be able to use one of these as a basis for it.

 

Hope that this helps.

All the best

Ray

 

Thank you - I've a couple of these kits and they do provide a lot of variety, but it's not a specific wagon I'm wanting to replicate. With the layout being based in a fictional town, I'd like some local private owner wagons, but I'd rather like to have them be accurate models of real designs rather than the Cambrian approach of a Gloucester underframe under everything! The 3D printer beckons... 

[wainwright1]

29 minutes ago, Skinnylinny said:

Thank you - I've come across this page before, but unfortunately all the drawings are 1923 or later. 

 

 

Thank you - I've a couple of these kits and they do provide a lot of variety, but it's not a specific wagon I'm wanting to replicate. With the layout being based in a fictional town, I'd like some local private owner wagons, but I'd rather like to have them be accurate models of real designs rather than the Cambrian approach of a Gloucester underframe under everything! The 3D printer beckons... 

Quite a bit of variety in the chassis of the the 5 & 9 kits, so there could be something in there you could use or adapt.

 

All the best

Ray

[ChrisN]

Linny,

Below is a word document that someone sent me, or I copied from a web site.  I am not sure which one, and it is a while since I have read it, and as yet wagon building is a way away so I do not remember exactly what is in it.  My understanding is that each RCH spec incorporated all the latest practises so wagons before that date could be built to its spec. Hope it is helpful, although perhaps a little early.  It has links which may take you somewhere helpful, even if you have to copy and paste into your browser.

RCH 1887.docx

Edited April 3, 2022 by ChrisN

[Skinnylinny]

I've just had a look through that, Chris. That looks fantastically helpful, thank you! I'm fairly certain that 1887-spec wagons would have been plentiful in my time period, and I reckon with enough poring over photos, given the details in that document.

The 1907 specifications I have mostly been able to glean from the Ince book, but the document suggests that there are more complete specifications in the Essery, Rowland & Steel book, so I shall look into getting that.

[Andy Hayter]

Have you looked at the HMRS drawings collection?

 

Annoyingly they don't give the date in the descriptors but I have taken it that anything that offers an 8t option will lead  you to an early version.   The few that I have examined for RCH 8,10,12t versions all seem to be from the 1907 specifications, which you ca see if you open up the link to the drawing and examine the thumbnails.

 

https://hmrs.org.uk/drawings.html?company_cat=13781&drawing_type=16

 

 

[hmrspaul]

8 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

Have you looked at the HMRS drawings collection?

 

Annoyingly they don't give the date in the descriptors

 

https://hmrs.org.uk/drawings.html?company_cat=13781&drawing_type=16

 

 

They appear to have the date in the more information below each drawing. 

 

Paul

[Andy Hayter]

Thanks for that Paul.  However you can see the drawing date - or is that the specification date? - in the thumbnail of the drawing, which is one click less.

 

As an example drawing 119 is the 1907 specification but the drawing date is 1910 but neither of these is available looking through the list of drawings in my link.  Therefore you have to open the link to the specific drawing to find if it is relevant or not.

[Caley Jim]

There was a very informative series of article in MRJ's 12 - 15 by Chris Crofts which give a great deal of detail on how wagons were  constructed and how to model them.

 

Jim

[Regularity]

IIRC, the 6-plank coal wagons were a bit later on the scene, or at least far less numerous. Small, local coal merchants were happy enough with 5 plank wagons to the 1887 spec, and weren’t so keen on 7 plank wagons as these held more coal, which increased the unloading time and the likelihood of incurring demurrage charges. To the railway companies, getting as much payload into a given space (length over buffers in this case) reduced the number of wagons required to carry it. The 6 plank was added to the 1907 as a few examples had been produced, and it was hoped to entice a few more merchants into slightly heavier loads.

 

Most of the specifications were not necessarily about the exact components, but about the size and position of bolt holes, etc, so that parts were interchangeable for the purposes of repairs. The idea was to say, “This is where we currently are as an industry, and this is the standard we will work to for the next few years.” I think the 1923 specification was more forward-looking than earlier standards, and was adopted by the LNER and LMS for their mineral wagons - albeit with variations! 
 

As ever, the key is to get hold of photos of your chosen era and location, and to read up on the relevant tomes to educate yourself in interpreting those photos. This is not something which can be easily answered in a book, nor a magazine article, and certainly not on-line. Genuine research is required, even if it is secondary research (reading books) rather than primary research (original sources). The reason for this is that any published works are likely to be too general rather than specific, giving an overall picture of the statistical average. I always think of the late Don Rowland’s frequently praised series on “Getting the Balance Right” as the perfect example of how an apparently well-researched series of articles can totally miss the point: averages only apply to a whole system, not to specific locations. Or we get very thorough pieces, like the Ince book you mention, or the photographic albums on Gloucester Wagons by OPC and on Charles Robert’s by Bill Hudson. These are useful, but you need to read the notes carefully and only rarely can one apply the information backwards through time. But what about the photos which were never taken, or which were lost?

Once you get seriously into this level of information, you will realise just how much variety was present in wagons supposedly built to the same specification, and how eventually you will end up scratch building individual models, or as increasingly seems to be the case, designing and printing them. (A different skill, but not the same craft.) 

[Compound2632]

22 hours ago, Skinnylinny said:

- Are there any visible differences between 8, 10, and 12ton wagons, other than potentially the number of leaves in the springs?

 

Volume. 

 

For the 1887 specification 8 ton wagons, one is generally looking at internal dimensions of 14'6" x 7'0" x 2'10" - 3'0" deep - around 290 - 300 cubic feet; for 10 ton wagons 14'6" x 7'0" x 3'8" - 4'0" deep - around 390 - 400 cubic feet. The later 12 ton wagons were longer by an extra foot and I think typically also 6" wider but they're a bit too modern for me so I've not really looked into them. (And looking into a wagon of this vintage raises a host of other questions!)

 

Consider also that the density of coal varies between coalfields and indeed from seam to seam so collieries in some parts of the country would prefer deeper (higher sided) wagons for the same nominal capacity. Also, a wagon could not necessarily be loaded to its nominal capacity by weight. The size of the coal would matter: graded small coal would make for a load of greater density than large lumps, simply on account of the air gaps between the pieces. 

 

22 hours ago, Skinnylinny said:

I'm aware that dumb buffers would still have been about in 1900-1910, but in rapidly-diminishing numbers. I'd really like to model some of the earlier wagons. I imagine there are also plenty of variations in bodywork between builders.

 

Dumb buffer wagons were finally banned from main line use just before the Great War but were certainly plentiful in the first years of the 20th century. Consider that a dumb-buffer wagon built new in 1886 would be only 20 years old in 1906. There was some reconstruction of dumb buffer wagons, fitting them with self-contained buffers, but I don't really have a feel for how widespread that was.

 

The pre-1923 specifications, or at least the 1887 specifications, were not so much about standardisation of components (i.e. making life easier for the owners / hirers and wagon repair side of the trade) but minimum standards of construction (i.e. making life easier for the railway companies by reducing failures on the road); they were forced on an unwilling private wagon industry by the railway companies through the RCH. The specifications were just one part of the triple system that also included inspection by and registration with one of the main line companies. As far as I can see, the specification drawings were a guide to what the railway companies' inspectors would find acceptable  rather than a prescription, so there remained a great deal of variation between builders, especially as to bodywork. 

 

One has to be aware of an enormous sampling bias in the available information. The PO wagon books only illustrate those wagons for which there are surviving illustrations! This means that the products of a few builders (notably the Gloucester Railway Carriage & Wagon Co.) dominate the books; also, the majority of good photos are of newly built wagons (or overhauled, repainted for a new customer). The most informative photos are those rare shots of goods yards, marshalling yards, or collieries that show wagons in traffic. 

 

I've found that once one has built up a good understanding of how wagons were constructed - the relationship between middle bearers, side knees, iron cross-rods, etc., and the ironwork one sees on the outside of the wagon, it's possible to build a satisfactory model from even the most unpromising photo. The wagons of mine I'm most pleased with were modelled from screenshots from a piece of 1897 film... 

 

Edited April 4, 2022 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

12 hours ago, Regularity said:

and how eventually you will end up scratch building individual models, or as increasingly seems to be the case, designing and printing them. (A different skill, but not the same craft.) 

 

Still got to paint them, though!

[Regularity]

Useful bibliography:

The Modeller’s Sketchbook of Private Owner Wagons Book 1 by A G Thomas

The Modeller’s Sketchbook of Private Owner Wagons Book 2 by A G Thomas

The Modeller’s Sketchbook of Private Owner Wagons Book 3 by A G Thomas

Private Owner Wagons for the Ince Waggon & Ironworks Co. by A J Watts

Private Owner Wagons: Volume 1 by Bill Hudson
Private Owner Wagons: Volume 2 by Bill Hudson
Private Owner Wagons: Volume 3 by Bill Hudson
Private Owner Wagons: Volume 4 by Bill Hudson
Private Owner Wagons by Bill Hudson [Oakwood Series X57]
British Carriage & Wagon Builders & Repairers 1830-2006 by Chris Sambrook Private Owner Wagons of the Forest of Dean by Ian Pope
Private Owner Wagons of Gloucestershire by Ian Pope
Private Owner Wagons of Bristol & District by Ian Pope
Birmingham Railway Carriage & Wagon Company by J.Hypher & C&S Wheeler
Private Owner Wagons from the Gloucester Railway Carriage and Wagon Co., Ltd. by Keith Mon- tague
Private Owner Wagons: A First Collection by Keith Turton
Private Owner Wagons: A Second Collection by Keith Turton
Private Owner Wagons: A Third Collection by Keith Turton
Private Owner Wagons: A Fourth Collection - Welsh Anthracite by Keith Turton
Private Owner Wagons: A Fifth Collection by Keith Turton
Private Owner Wagons: A Sixth Collection by Keith Turton
Private Owner Wagons: A Seventh Collection by Keith Turton
Private Owner Wagons: An Eighth Collection by Keith Turton
Private Owner Wagons: A Ninth Collection by Keith Turton
Tenth, Eleventh and Twelth are also available
Coal Trade Wagons by Len Tavender
Private Owners on the Cambrian by Mike Lloyd
Private-Owner Wagons (Specialist Booklets No.11) by Peter Matthews
British Goods Wagons from 1897 to the Present Day [1969] by R.J. Essery, D.P. Rowland & W.O. Steel

[Skinnylinny]

39 minutes ago, Regularity said:

Useful bibliography:

The Modeller’s Sketchbook of Private Owner Wagons Book 1 by A G Thomas

The Modeller’s Sketchbook of Private Owner Wagons Book 2 by A G Thomas

The Modeller’s Sketchbook of Private Owner Wagons Book 3 by A G Thomas

Private Owner Wagons for the Ince Waggon & Ironworks Co. by A J Watts

Private Owner Wagons: Volume 1 by Bill Hudson
Private Owner Wagons: Volume 2 by Bill Hudson
Private Owner Wagons: Volume 3 by Bill Hudson
Private Owner Wagons: Volume 4 by Bill Hudson
Private Owner Wagons by Bill Hudson [Oakwood Series X57]
British Carriage & Wagon Builders & Repairers 1830-2006 by Chris Sambrook Private Owner Wagons of the Forest of Dean by Ian Pope
Private Owner Wagons of Gloucestershire by Ian Pope
Private Owner Wagons of Bristol & District by Ian Pope
Birmingham Railway Carriage & Wagon Company by J.Hypher & C&S Wheeler
Private Owner Wagons from the Gloucester Railway Carriage and Wagon Co., Ltd. by Keith Mon- tague
Private Owner Wagons: A First Collection by Keith Turton
Private Owner Wagons: A Second Collection by Keith Turton
Private Owner Wagons: A Third Collection by Keith Turton
Private Owner Wagons: A Fourth Collection - Welsh Anthracite by Keith Turton
Private Owner Wagons: A Fifth Collection by Keith Turton
Private Owner Wagons: A Sixth Collection by Keith Turton
Private Owner Wagons: A Seventh Collection by Keith Turton
Private Owner Wagons: An Eighth Collection by Keith Turton
Private Owner Wagons: A Ninth Collection by Keith Turton
Tenth, Eleventh and Twelth are also available
Coal Trade Wagons by Len Tavender
Private Owners on the Cambrian by Mike Lloyd
Private-Owner Wagons (Specialist Booklets No.11) by Peter Matthews
British Goods Wagons from 1897 to the Present Day [1969] by R.J. Essery, D.P. Rowland & W.O. Steel

 

Those I have I've listed in bold, ones in the club library are in italics, and I'm currently negotiating a price on the underlined. I also have Railway Mechanical Engineering (vol. 1 & 2) from the Gresham Publishing Co (published 1923 but still useful!), and Private Owner Wagons of the South East by John Arkell, and various magazine articles.

 

Plenty of information, just need to sift through it! 

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, Regularity said:

Useful bibliography:

 

Do I observe you cutting and pasting from the Lightmoor Index?

 

Anyway, Turton now rivals Shostakovich, having reach his Fifteenth.

 

I think if I was to recommend just one of those it would be Watts' Ince book; although it's about the products of one firm it does have the best general introduction to the subject plus reproductions of drawings from the RCH specifications. Plus it's still available from the HMRS at just £7, or £12.50 once you've factored in P&P. 

 

A complete set of Turton will set you back over £300, assuming you could find reasonably-priced second-hand copies of the out of print volumes. 

Edited April 4, 2022 by Compound2632

[Regularity]

6 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Do I observe you cutting and pasting from the Lightmoor Index?

No, from someone else, who may have done that.

[Andy Vincent]

On 03/04/2022 at 12:21, Skinnylinny said:

Are there any visible differences between 8, 10, and 12ton wagons, other than potentially the number of leaves in the springs?

Firstly, to add to the book list is the reprint of the series of articles by Archie Croome in 'Work: The Illustrated Weekly Journal for Mechanics' magazine in 1898 that was published by Dragonwheel Books in 2005 and entitled "The Railway Clearing House Standard Goods Wagon of 1887: Drawings and Details". 

 

Moving to the quoted question, the text notes:

"The carrying weight of the wagon illustrated is 8 tons, but the same strength underframe is used for a 10-ton wagon, the body being increased from 2'10" to 4' in depth; the tare is from 5½ tons to 6 tons"

 

[Andy Vincent]

The RCH 1904 specification was covered in the December 1905 issue of The Railway Engineer and includes the GA but not detail drawings. This 1904 spec does cover 12 ton wagons and the specification for the springs is different (as are some other components).

 

You can buy a PDF for the whole of 1905 here https://www.forgottenbooks.com/en/books/TheRailwayEngineer1905_10867449. You can also preview some pages albeit not the first page in the spec but the second onward start here https://www.forgottenbooks.com/en/readbook/TheRailwayEngineer1905_10867449#360 . 

The coverage does tease that the detail drawings will be covered in future but only the 1908 year seems to have been digitized so far.

[Caley Jim]

Remember that the 'tonnage' of a wagon was as much about the running gear (springs and axleboxes) as about the physical capacity of the wagon.  Some mineral wagons could not carry a volume of coal equal to their rating, but would have been able to carry a denser mineral, e.g. iron ore.  This was the case with CR 6, 8 and 10 ton wagons.   Many earlier wagons were uprated by fitting heavier springs.

 

Jim

[MarcD]

I have made some of my 7mm range available as bodies in HO, 4mm, S and G1 (1/32) I'm working on making the 4mm and G1 (1/32) as complete kits. You can find them at pregroupingrailways.com

Marc

[relaxinghobby]

Thanks for bringing to our notice the written description of the Railway Clearing House pattern for wagons in the 1880s.

Handy for the modeller of that era.

Here are some illustrations of my efforts. Handily the Lima H0 wagons are a good size for a basic box to glue some scribed sheeting to to make some of these smaller wagons for 00 scale.

Nearest the camera is a Cambrian kit of a RCH wagon of the later and larger early 1900s pattern, 10 ton variety.

Edited May 8, 2022 by relaxinghobby
editing and spelling

[Compound2632]

I've had a look at a copy of the 1887 RCH Specification, in an edition prepared by the Midland Railway, I presume for issue to private owners and / or builders [Midland Railway Study Centre Item 13389].

 

The preamble reads:

 

Standard Specification for the construction of 8 or 10 Tons Private Owner’s Wagons, to work upon the Lines of the Railway Companies, as unanimously approved and authorised by the Conference of General Managers at the Railway Clearing house, Nov. 11th, 1886.

 

(Vide Report of Committee of Engineers, dated 23rd December, 1885)

 

Private owners may build the body of the wagon to best suit their own purposes, provided they adhere to the dimensions herein given, and comply strictly with all the provisions and requirements set forth in this Specification. A working drawing and description of the wagon proposed to be built must first be submitted for approval to the Locomotive, Carriage, or Wagon Superintendent of the Line of Railway upon which the wagon is intended to work, and, if it be found to conform in all particulars with this Specification, or to the Standard Drawings annexed, or herein referred to, sanction may then be given for the construction of the wagon; but before any such wagon is allowed to run on the Company’s Railway, the Railway Company’s Superintendent, or his Inspector, shall examine it, and, if he be satisfied that this Specification has been fully carried into effect, he shall fix a Register Plate to each side of the wagon, which plate shall bear the name of the Railway Company registering it, the register number, and the maximum load to be carried; and the plate so affixed shall pass the wagon to work over the Company’s or any other Line of Railway without further registration.

 

There follows a sketch of the design of register plate, followed by a few lines under each of 16 headings. There are a lot of statements that include such unhelpful phrases as "to be made of approved form and dimensions" or "of approved materials and strength"...

 

An appendix gives details of the test procedure for bearing and buffing springs, and tyres and axles. Finally, there's a specification for iron or steel underframes. 

 

There's a schedule of drawings:

 

No. 1 – Elastic drawgear (i.e. sprung buffers, buffing springs, and drawbar cradle)

No. 2 – Drawbars and chains

No. 3 – Axleguards.

No. 4 – Bearing spring

No. 5 – Axle-box.

No. 6 – Wheels, axle, and tyres, and tyre fastenings.

 

There are drawings enclosed with the specification, one that corresponds to Nos. 1 - 3, more-or-less, No. 6, and a full-size drawing of the drawhook, plus an underframe drawing that appeared to me to correspond to the underframe in the 8 ton wagon drawing in Watts' Ince book.

 

If you want further details and drawings, you are invited to apply to

THOS. G. CLAYTON,

Carriage and Wagon Superintendent, Derby.

 

Edited May 21, 2022 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

MR Carriage & Wagon Committee minute 2783 of 7 October 1892:

 

Messrs Turton, Platts & Co.'s application

              

A letter written by Messrs Turton, Platts & Co. of Sheffield to the Chairman of the Company dated September 26th 1892, alleging that the Midland Railway Company refused to allow Private Wagon Builders to use Turton, Platts & Co’s Patent Buffer, having been referred to the Carriage and Wagon Committee, was fully considered, and the Committee came to the conclusion that as the specification for Private Owner’s Wagons had been compiled by the Locomotive Engineers and Carriage and Wagon Superintendents of all the Railway Companies and agreed to by them as one general uniform specification to be adhered to by all parties, and had been fully considered by the General Managers in their conferences, and afterwards printed and distributed from the Railway Clearing House to all the Railway Companies, that the Midland Railway Company had no power to alter the standard specification without the consent of the united Railway Companies.

 

The minutes of the RCH General Managers' Conferences ate at the National Archives...