Dapol Locos on 2ft Radius Curves?

[jcm@gwr]

The Lima set-track was 700mm radius (2' 31/2") and all their locos go round,

including the 4F, and their Bo-Bo diesels.

I have a number of 0-4-0 locos, and an Alas Plymouth 0-6-0, which all go round

without issue.

But at the moment, the track is just a circle, on a 4 piece board, for testing and

running in, I knocked it up as a test track for small locos, as our club layout is in

the process of being rebuilt. 

 

packed away for transport/storage

 

and set up for our reopening on New Years Eve!

[Hal Nail]

Given the visual compromises already involved, would a piece of fine wire soldered between buffer heads sort out the risk of locking?

[Nearholmer]

5 hours ago, jcm@gwr said:

packed away for transport/storage

Neat bit of carpentry that. I like the way you’ve reinforced the joint at the mid-board corner.

[jcm@gwr]

26 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Neat bit of carpentry that. I like the way you’ve reinforced the joint at the mid-board corner.

 

Thank you, I have more photos (taken during lockdown) of how I built it, including the

unusual method I used for electrical continuity across the board joints (without using

any connectors)

The test-track was designed to be light, small and easy to assemble, so that our older

members, or those not used to portable layouts, could borrow it for use at home.

 

The photos were taken so I could write an artical for our newsletter, and if there is any

interest, I'll happily post them up, ok.

 

[goldfish]

7 hours ago, jcm@gwr said:

The Lima set-track was 700mm radius (2' 31/2") and all their locos go round,

including the 4F, and their Bo-Bo diesels.

 

Out of interest, what code rail do Lima use for their set-track please?

[jcm@gwr]

14 minutes ago, goldfish said:

 

Out of interest, what code rail do Lima use for their set-track please?

 

To be honest I don't know, and unfortunately, I can't seem to find the spare track I had,

also the test-track is at the club. I'm going to be  working at the club over the weekend,

so I'll measure it and let you know, ok.

[Nearholmer]

Have you looked at ETS track?

 

Their 2-rail wheel profile and check-rail arrangements are “fairly fine”, although whether they are fully compatible with G0G “fine” I don’t know - I have a strong feeling that their wheels will run happily on G0G “fine” point-work, but am far less sure about G0G wheels through their points.

[goldfish]

20 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Have you looked at ETS track?

 

Their 2-rail wheel profile and check-rail arrangements are “fairly fine”, although whether they are fully compatible with G0G “fine” I don’t know - I have a strong feeling that their wheels will run happily on G0G “fine” point-work, but am far less sure about G0G wheels through their points.

 

I am not sure if Peco track is completely G0G compliant, but in my limited experience ETS 1.5mm flanges wheels run through set-track and streamline points without problems, Slaters, Dapol, and Peartree fine scale wheels are actually smoother running through ETS points than ETS wheels. The plastic frogs on ETS points can cause the occasional electrical issue, but that is the only problem I have encountered so far.

[F-UnitMad]

1 hour ago, goldfish said:

 

Out of interest, what code rail do Lima use for their set-track please?

I think it was Code 100, it was very fine, albeit the chair moldings added some more depth inside the rails which may have helped flange clearances. Here's a photo on an old layout of mine that used Lima set track.

[goldfish]

22 hours ago, F-UnitMad said:

I think it was Code 100, it was very fine, albeit the chair moldings added some more depth inside the rails which may have helped flange clearances. Here's a photo on an old layout of mine that used Lima set track.

 

Much finer than I expected, but it makes sound sense if you are also manufacturing 00/H0 track. Rather surprising other manufacturers haven't had the same idea.

Edited May 14, 2022 by goldfish

[F-UnitMad]

I suppose as Lima O models of the time also used a rather massive 'claw'-type coupling the tight curves weren't a problem, as ably demonstrated on the 'children's layout' that the Gauge O Guild used to have at the Telford Guildex show.

On that layout I pictured above, using Lima points, short American locos and stock up to 40ft cars were ok with Kadee couplers. Longer locos and stock couldn't negotiate them, so the layout was never finished (as could be seen by the un-ballasted section of track in my photo!!).

[goldfish]

On 09/04/2022 at 18:23, BRTrainz said:

Hi, was wondering if any one has tried running Dapol locos on on a 2ft or similar radius?

I realise this is far from an ideal radius (to say the least) in finescale O but larger is not really an option for me right now if I want a loop.

 

Having finally succumbed to to temptation and treated myself to a Dapol Sentinel, I can confirm that you can successfully run at least one Dapol loco on 2ft radius track. The Dapol Sentinel runs on 2ft radius with no problem.

 

 

The sharp eyed amongst you will notice that it is 3-rail track, but it has been modified to run both 2 and 3-rail.

 

Out of the box the Sentinel will pull these three wagons through 2ft curves with no problems. However with the original Dapol couplings it will only push one around 2ft radius curves. This because the original Dapol 3-link couplings are too short to cope with 2ft radius curves, and cause derailments. Replacing the 3-link couplings with single link couplings is easy on these wagons and resolves the problem.

 

The couplings on the Sentinel are not so easy to replace, as they are of the newer, shorter, variety and are mounted in a compartment that is too tight a fit to accept a longer draw bar. Dapol obviously do not approve of people like me changing their couplings.

 

Without changing the couplings the Sentinel cannot push even one of these wagons through a 2ft reverse curve without suffering from buffer lock.

 

[hartleymartin]

A few months ago I set up some of the 1970s Atlas 2-rail track with 24" radius curves. I can confirm that 0-4-0s will happily run around those curves, include the Dapol Sentinel, Ixion Manning Wardle H Class, etc. I also have a Rivarossi DB Clas 80 which ran with no problems. If couplings are left loose enough, most four-wheel wagons will be pulled happily around these curves, but propelling them may be a problem when you get back to straights.

[goldfish]

38 minutes ago, hartleymartin said:

A few months ago I set up some of the 1970s Atlas 2-rail track with 24" radius curves. I can confirm that 0-4-0s will happily run around those curves, include the Dapol Sentinel, Ixion Manning Wardle H Class, etc.

 

You don't have to confine yourself to 0-4-0s, I have been running a Dapol Terrier around ETS 627mm (24.7") radius curves with no problems. Including through the double reverse curves through points on my shunting plank. It is even possible to pull Dapol Mainline 4-wheel coaches around these curves, but they cannot be successfully pushed around them, nor will they cope with the reverse curves. Buffer lock is an obvious problem with the Terrier, but is easily overcome by ensuring that the Terrier is only coupled to a wagon fitted with wide buffers.

[Nearholmer]

As I think you’ve demonstrated yourself, buffer-lock is easy to avoid, by using the solutions devised more than a century ago, either: wide buffers; or, rigid single-link couplings.

 

Single-link couplings can even be made to look like three-links, by soldering the  links together to become rigid. The hook does need to be shaped to stop the link jumping out when propelling, but there are several ways of achieving that, some looking more like the real thing than others.

 

 

 

Edited January 30 by Nearholmer

[goldfish]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

As I think you’ve demonstrated yourself, buffer-lock is easy to avoid, by using the solutions devised more than a century ago, either: wide buffers; or, rigid single-link couplings.

 

Single-link couplings can even be made to look like three-links, by soldering the  links together to become rigid. The hook does need to be shaped to stop the link jumping out when propelling, but there are several ways of achieving that, some looking more like the real thing than others.

 

 

 

 

I find that a Belt and Braces  approach works best...

 

 

Unfortunately this is not easily possible with most rolling stock, but where it is, as with Leeds Bakelite stock, it is extremely successful. Allowing as it does both loose and coupled shunting.

 

Although 3-link couplings can be soldered or glued together to act like single link couplings they are not very successful. To function properly a single link coupling must form a rigid strut when coupled to a hook, if there is excessive side play the tendency is to push the wheels sideways off the rails. The broader section of the single link coupling near the end is not there for show, it forms a solid lock with the hook to keep the hook and link in line. They knew a thing or two a century ago, some of which has been forgotten.

[goldfish]

Having established that  the Dapol Terrier and Sentinel Shunter can successfully traverse ETS curves, albeit with some restrictions, I thought it would be interesting to put together a layout see what could actually be done in a space of 2.4m x 1.6m. The result is a small oval with a Light Railway style station on one side of the oval and a shunting plank / fiddle yard on the other.

 

 

The paper template represents the Tower Models / Bachman platform which is the only r.t.r. one I could find. The points are arranged to avoid reverse curves, and the sidings will each accommodate three short wheelbase wagons.

 

 

The Terrier is confined to pulling everything, attempting push anything through the curves simply results in buffer lock. The Sentinel Shunter can move short wheelbase wagons around without restriction.  Within those limitations it provides a reasonable amount of operating potential in a size only a little larger than a double bed.

 

It is very limited though, even a Lima 4f will not go through ETS points. For a more practical layout using Lima 700mm curves would be a much more sensible solution.

 

From a purely practical point of view, any small radius curves are incompatible with 3-link couplings. For reliable running they have to be replaced with couplings that maintain sufficient distance to prevent buffer lock.

 

Edited February 4 by goldfish

[Stephen Freeman]

If I remember correctly the late Alan Cliff had a minimum radius of 28 inches and used to put an extra link in the couplings.

[Rich Uncle Skeleton]

Would a terrier cope with the new Peco setrack?

[goldfish]

9 hours ago, Rich Uncle Skeleton said:

Would a terrier cope with the new Peco setrack?

 

If you mean Peco ST-725 1028mm radius curves, that is what it is designed to work on, so yes. That said, in their publicity videos they only show it going forwards and there isn't a reverse curve in sight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHcNALJRdn0