Hornby Tier System- An Update.

[E100]

I guess an aspect of the tier system I hadn't appreciated before is that a lot of the larger high street / local model shops are now tier 2 or 3. These are one's that even my dad / late granddad remember e.g. Hatton's. Mean whilst several tier 1's are now in lower footfall areas or part of bigger department shops reducing the brand penetration significantly, which considering that brand recognition is about the only thing in Hornby's favour right now doesn't bode well.

 

I would like Hornby to succeed and be a major player in the market, as competition is a good thing, however this anti-competitive practice amongst others make it very difficult to support them right now. I do hope they change tack soon. I don't doubt that there are many good meaning people who work for them and try their best and I do hope their voices are heard within the company.

[Pmorgancym]

2 hours ago, Legend said:

 Probably something like the Hornby 66.    In another marketing shambles  curiously not listed as Railroad but sold at a Railroad price , or would that be Railroad Plus , yet another unnecessary sub division . 

The 66 really should be in railroad I have no idea why they market it out of that range.

 

I sort of envisage something with a decent drive train (maybe designed to be modular so you can cover a range of bobo/coco models, maybe only the inner two wheels etc on coco's are driven 1bo-bo1).  DCC ready, basic lighting or designed so purchasers can easily add lighting?  A pragmatic approach to detailing deign clever where applicable but with the philosophy that it is easier for Modellers to add a detail that's not there say a handrail, than remove a poorly executed one and then replace it.

So you'd be starting from scratch, design a model to be a budget model, rather than cheaply making an old tooling 

 

[The Stationmaster]

On 11/04/2022 at 14:19, Harlequin said:

 

I think there's some special magic about railways that transcends personal experience and personal memory that will always make them attractive to modellers. (The same magic probably explains the huge explosion of railway-related TV programs there has been in recent years.)

 

It's difficult to put your finger on where the magic comes from but in the real world it's something to do with trains being imposing but biddable monsters and in the model world it's about being able to bid those monsters to do your will in your own little universe.

 

Another point - so often missed - is how people come into contact with railways.  Many youngsters still make daily (during term time) journeys by rail to/from school but I suspect that doesn't encourage many of them towards model railways.   In  reality a lot of the 'magic of the railway' comes from people travelling on or visiting railways and sites in the heritage/leisure sector.  I wouldn't mind betting that there more children in Britain today who have travelled behind a steam engine on such a railway than have travelled in your everyday DMU or EMU.

 

Thus theway of attracting youngsters, and some older newcomers, into the hobby can owe quite a lot to the heritage etc sector which tends to be more colourful and offer a greater variety than many parts of the everyday railway. But Hornby also need to think about, and in some respects does think about, what all these people can see on the everyday railway.  In about 30 minutes yesterday I watched a procession of IEPs (Hornby, and in GWR livery for some releases), Class 387s (no model) and on the two container trains I saw a Class 70 (Bachmann) and a Class 66 Hornby) plus numerous wagons types and containers (various manufacturers.  Go to my nearest preservation sites/heritage railways and most of what they run in terms of locos, and some passenger stock plus various wagons is either currently available or on its way to the market in the coming year or so - but a lot of it not from Hornby.

 

So plenty of real world out there to see and be inspired by and no doubt many people are so inspired to enter or re-enter our hobby.

[eldomtom2]

4 hours ago, CUCKOO LINE said:

I thought railroad was originally  supposed to be the budget range with less detail and less features but nevertheless reasonably accurate. 

Railroad is a confused mess that basically means "we couldn't get away with selling this as part of the main range". Really it needs a total rebrand from name on down.

[CUCKOO LINE]

That is true but I was just quoting what I remembered what was said when Railroad was originally launched with items like Tornado.

[Pmorgancym]

41 minutes ago, Balgrayhill said:

There are many vociferous people who moan about budget models not being detailed enough, yet moan that detailed models are too expensive.   And that is generally the same section of modelling society who moan if a budget model is supplied with extra detail parts to fit themselves, because it is 'too hard' (remember Vi-Trains?)

 

At todays manufacturing costs, designing a new model to, say a Lima class 47 standard, would result in a model that is more expensive than Hornby's Railroad version of Lima's class 47.

 

The cheapest way to produce a model, is to use existing tooling that has already paid for itself, a la Hornby's Railroad range.

It's something Hornby are going to think about, where do the 'Playraiks' generation go next?  A Railroad 47 is a bit insipid after an all singing all dancing remote controlled playrails loco.

[CUCKOO LINE]

Cheap sound fitted in Railroad to aim at that market, but I suspect RMWebbers would then moan about the sound quality although the market aimed at wouldn,t really care !

[Robin Brasher]

My best value locomotive is the Hornby Dublo R1 0-6-0t which cost 36 shillings in July 1959 and was made in Liverpool.  According to Measuring Worth this is the equivalent of £42.81 in 2020 and would be an excellent starter locomotive. I expect most of these locomotives are still running today.

 

This topic is about the Hornby tier system. When the Hornby R1 was introduced in 1959 it was available in every toy shop or model shop in the Country. Now when a new locomotive becomes available you can only get it from Hornby's website or from a tier 1 dealer.  If your shop is in tier 2 you might be able to get it straight away as I did with the Hornby Rocket set or you may get it six months later. If your shop is in tier 3 you may get it a year later if Hornby has not sold out of them.

 

Generally speaking I think that we have reached the stage where it is a buyer's market. The number of people who are interested in model railways and are still alive is diminishing as is the number of people who can afford them. There is also less demand for models of prototypes that have not yet been produced but the minimum production run is still around 2,000. Good things come to those that wait and I think that you are unlikely to be disappointed if you order from a tier 2 dealer

[Phil Parker]

2 minutes ago, Robin Brasher said:

If your shop is in tier 3 you may get it a year later if Hornby has not sold out of them.

 

My APT arrived in a Tier 3 shop within a couple of weeks of everyone else getting them.

[Dunsignalling]

On 10/04/2022 at 10:36, spamcan61 said:

They're the one and only brand name the vast majority of the population have heard of, their product range (across all brands) is vastly bigger than anyone else in the market so I suspect that would be a cutting off nose to spite face situation for pretty much any mainstream retailer.

But the "vast majority of the population" haven't bought any model trains in a generation, whoever makes them, and a hefty proportion never have. So does being the "household name" really matter any more? 

 

Also, very few "mainstream" retailers now stock model trains, Hornby or otherwise, so does being the "household name" really matter any more?

 

How many people these days vacuum their homes with a Hoover, take pictures with a Kodak camera, or assiduously buy the household name in washing-up liquid, breakfast cereal or baked beans?  In my own case, none of the above!

 

So does being any "household name" (other than possibly Apple or Amazon) really matter any more?

 

I really don't think it does. Hornby's direction of travel is inexorably towards direct selling only and (IMHO) the dealer network will only survive until Hornby is ready and able to ditch it. Starting with Tier 3? 

 

If I were a model retailer, I'd be actively working on surviving and thriving without relying on Hornby sales before doing so got forced upon me. After all, Rails of Sheffield seem to be doing pretty well on it....

 

We live in The Age of Information, and anyone seriously contemplating buying model trains will be fully aware that Hornby are by no means the only game in town within a couple of mouse-clicks or screen-prods.

 

John

 

 

Edited April 13, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[E100]

2 hours ago, eldomtom2 said:

Railroad is a confused mess that basically means "we couldn't get away with selling this as part of the main range". Really it needs a total rebrand from name on down.

 

Indeed - Railroad plus contains etched nameplates that many items, including the flagship products, in their main range don't carry.

[Michael Hodgson]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Another point - so often missed - is how people come into contact with railways.  Many youngsters still make daily (during term time) journeys by rail to/from school but I suspect that doesn't encourage many of them towards model railways.   In  reality a lot of the 'magic of the railway' comes from people travelling on or visiting railways and sites in the heritage/leisure sector.  I wouldn't mind betting that there more children in Britain today who have travelled behind a steam engine on such a railway than have travelled in your everyday DMU or EMU.

 

I don't think many cjildren travel to/from school daily these days.  I don't think that many ever did.  I have alwaays associated rail travel to school as a start/end of term school affair affecting the few who went to boarding school.  Most kids go to school by car in the notorious "school run" where the traffic is heavier than the "rush hour" of workers going to work!    There is now disporportionate fear of "stanger danger".  In my day, most bigger kids travelled (to secondary schools) by bus.  Primary schools are much smaller and many children live within walking distance, even though the parents might still use a Chelsea tractor.

 

Before Beeching, it was much more common to have a railway at the bottom of the garden/visible from the school's grounds, and boys (mainly) would watch the trains go by and collect numbers.  In steam days there was much greater diversity of motive power as loco classes could be quite small, and this must have fostered much of the interest in models.

 

In practice operational railways have always had a tendency for particular rolling stock to dominate any route, even more so with the loss of wagonload freight. 

 

For most families, a railway (if you encounter one at all) is merely an inconveniece holding up your travel at level crossings!  Even those are much rarer in some parts of the country than others.

Edited April 13, 2022 by Michael Hodgson
accidentally posted whilst incomplete

[Phil Parker]

5 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Also, very few "mainstream" retailers now stock model trains, Hornby or otherwise, so does being the "household name" really matter any more?

 

Argos: https://www.argos.co.uk/browse/toys/toy-vehicles-and-sets/toy-trains/c:30429/

John Lewis: https://www.johnlewis.com/browse/baby-child/shop-toys/view-all-toys/hornby/_/N-feuZ1z13noy

WH Smith: https://www.whsmith.co.uk/modelzone/hornby/?gclid=CjwKCAjw6dmSBhBkEiwA_W-EoGZc_UYpSEht2YScERcrR1N6i2RAVZuK1Od1wF-0ho7z90DxYqcy_hoCSbMQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

The Entertainer: https://www.thetoyshop.com/brands/hornby

 

OK, they aren't in every shop on the high street, but Hornby has made efforts in recent years to get trains out there. I suspect that the ranges in many preserved railways, something else they have developed, will be pretty fruitful too. It's worth remembering that pre-pandemic, the firm was taking stands at events like the NEC Spring fair where they could meet more general retailers.

 

A bigger problem around here is the lack of "mainstream" retailers. Coffee and charity shops we've got. For pretty much anything else you need to go to a less dead town.

[Dunsignalling]

14 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

My APT arrived in a Tier 3 shop within a couple of weeks of everyone else getting them.

TBH, I think the issue with being a Tier 3 dealer is less to do with when they get items, and more about whether they get the quantity they know their customers want to buy. 

 

The Tier System almost inevitably transfers Hornby pre-orders up the food chain. 

 

It certainly has with mine, though I am also careful to direct those for non-Hornby items to those who lose out. 

 

John

 

 

[Matt]

I agree the brand shouldn’t count but i think it does. Taking a parallel with slot cars, I wanted to get the kids a slot car set. Whilst I saw other brands ultimately the one I recognised was scalextric which I bought for them (me?). A friend who is into slot cars groaned and said I should have researched as there are better systems out there - but at time of buying, the scalextric brand was the one I knew and assumed it represented good quality as opposed to unknown brand of unknown quality. I could have researched but wasn’t into it enough to take the time. I suspect same happens with model railways… my old boss wasn’t really into model railways but confessed that he would treat himself to a Hornby steam loco once in a while for his collection - when I told him about my mostly non Hornby collection he was surprised how much non Hornby stuff was out there…

 

[The Stationmaster]

5 minutes ago, Robin Brasher said:

My best value locomotive is the Hornby Dublo R1 0-6-0t which cost 36 shillings in July 1959 and was made in Liverpool.  According to Measuring Worth this is the equivalent of £42.81 in 2020 and would be an excellent starter locomotive. I expect most of these locomotives are still running today.

 

This topic is about the Hornby tier system. When the Hornby R1 was introduced in 1959 it was available in every toy shop or model shop in the Country. Now when a new locomotive becomes available you can only get it from Hornby's website or from a tier 1 dealer.  If your shop is in tier 2 you might be able to get it straight away as I did with the Hornby Rocket set or you may get it six months later. If your shop is in tier 3 you may get it a year later if Hornby has not sold out of them.

 

Generally speaking I think that we have reached the stage where it is a buyer's market. The number of people who are interested in model railways and are still alive is diminishing as is the number of people who can afford them. There is also less demand for models of prototypes that have not yet been produced but the minimum production run is still around 2,000. Good things come to those that wait and I think that you are unlikely to be disappointed if you order from a tier 2 dealer

I'm not sure if it is a buyer's market in the case of Hornby.  The Tiers arrangement was introduced - as i understand things - to try to sort out the mess the company had got itself into by over-selling and then having to make what amounted to arbitrary reductions in supplies to retailers which left many retailers in the lurch as far as pre-orders were concerned.  aAt least now Tier 1 retailers stand a fairly good chance of getting the quantity of each model they ordered although even that has not always been the case.  And obviously in the case of less popular (i.e.fewer ordered by retailers) models then supplies mal trickle down to the lower tiers right from teh start

 

So with a Hornby model you and I might or might not get what we pre-ordered and with a popular model we might not get it at all from our chosen retailer or - I suppose -  even from Hornby if we order it too late and miss the boat.  But the other side of the coin is that Hornby still appear to have, and are trying to sell to the retail trade, considerable stocks of older models some of which have, for example, recently appeared in Hattons latest freebie catalogue.  so in some respects there is a chance for the buyer but it all depends what he or she wants to buy.

 

Prices also are being criticised by many which suggests that they, in particular, certainly don't see things as a buyer's market but in fact the exact opposite.  There of course there is also another side of the coin because if price reduces demand and you are prepared to accept that price you might stand a better chance of getting something you want.

 

As far a production runs are concerned I seriously wonder about your 2,000 figure.  It might well apply over a range of liveries and minor detail changes on a model of, say, a particular loco.  But in many instances in the usual production run the number of any particular variant or livery is likely to be lower than that - and sometimes no more than 500 which was the normal minimum quantity per variant for many Chinese factories (I know that some will go down to 250 but that is where the total order is 2,000 or more).  I know too of one case where, albeit over several runs, a commissioned model has been produced in greater numbers than the normal size of run for a 'mainstream manufacturer' brand model.

[Dunsignalling]

35 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Argos: https://www.argos.co.uk/browse/toys/toy-vehicles-and-sets/toy-trains/c:30429/

John Lewis: https://www.johnlewis.com/browse/baby-child/shop-toys/view-all-toys/Hornby/_/N-feuZ1z13noy

WH Smith: https://www.whsmith.co.uk/modelzone/Hornby/?gclid=CjwKCAjw6dmSBhBkEiwA_W-EoGZc_UYpSEht2YScERcrR1N6i2RAVZuK1Od1wF-0ho7z90DxYqcy_hoCSbMQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

The Entertainer: https://www.thetoyshop.com/brands/Hornby

 

OK, they aren't in every shop on the high street, but Hornby has made efforts in recent years to get trains out there. I suspect that the ranges in many preserved railways, something else they have developed, will be pretty fruitful too. It's worth remembering that pre-pandemic, the firm was taking stands at events like the NEC Spring fair where they could meet more general retailers.

 

A bigger problem around here is the lack of "mainstream" retailers. Coffee and charity shops we've got. For pretty much anything else you need to go to a less dead town.

Fairly typical if you live in any town with a population under 50k. The only one of those mentioned that  has branches within 15 miles for me is WHS and none of them stock Hornby anyway. I don't think even the one in Exeter has for some while.

 

If you live in the West Country, Argos has ceased to exist other than for internet sales with collection possible from Sainsbury's. My nearest branch is 8 miles away, and I have 4 other supermarket chains within walking distance, as was my former Argos store which used to get quite a bit of my custom. I haven't bought anything from them since before lockdown. Amazon, and their Marketplace retailers offer a much greater choice, and  deliver to my door (free, I have Prime). I don't even look at the Argos website any more.

 

I have made purchases from John Lewis, but mainly on-line, and not including trains! For those I patronise specialist retailers. 

 

The Entertainer? Who?

 

John

Edited April 13, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[The Stationmaster]

28 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

I don't think many cjildren travel to/from school daily these days.  I don't think that many ever did.  I have alwaays associated rail travel to school as a start/end of term school affair affecting the few who went to boarding school.  Most kids go to school by car in the notorious "school run" where the traffic is heavier than the "rush hour" of workers going to work!    There is now disporportionate fear of "stanger danger".  In my day, most bigger kids travelled (to secondary schools) by bus.  Primary schools are much smaller and many children live within walking distance, even though the parents might still use a Chelsea tractor.

 

Before Beeching, it was much more common to have a railway at the bottom of the garden/visible from the school's grounds, and boys (mainly) would watch the trains go by and collect numbers.  In steam days there was much greater diversity of motive power as loco classes could be quite small, and this must have fostered much of the interest in models.

 

In practice operational railways have always had a tendency for particular rolling stock to dominate any route, even more so with the loss of wagonload freight. 

 

For most families, a railway (if you encounter one at all) is merely an inconveniece holding up your travel at level crossings!  Even those are much rarer in some parts of the country than others.

Certain trains round here are definitely best avoided at the times various schools chuck out in the afternoon, not that a noticeable number of the scholars are badly behaved but they do tend to be noisy.  As far as our local branch is concerned,  going off the figures in the Station Usage estimates, I reckon the local 6th Form College - which draws in youngsters from several much larger towns within a radius of about 20 miles - is probably responsible for well in excess of a quarter of a million passengers per annum with some trains loading up to about 75% load factor on a 3 car DMU.

[Dunsignalling]

23 minutes ago, Balgrayhill said:

I would still say Hornby are the household name for model railways, my partner refers to my model railway as a Hornby train set (despite it being US outline).  I was at a car boot event a while back, someone was selling a few locos with a sign saying All Hornbys £20, yet they were all Bachmann and Roco!

However, for those who aren't going to buy trains, it doesn't matter a fig if they equate them with Hornby.

 

My point is that the commercial world has moved on and, in only in a very few cases is being "the household name" relevant in the way it was 50 years ago.

 

Hornby is, increasingly, not one of those, though perhaps their Airfix and Scalextric brands still are! 

 

John

[phil-b259]

13 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

The Entertainer? Who?

 

 

A TOY retailer! (with a reasonably large branch network)

 

And as I keep having to remind people, Hornbys official status is a TOY manufacturer supplier...

 

Naturally not the haunt of a serious modeller - but a place (and that includes their website) where a unknowledgable parent / relative might well visit when looking to buy a 'toy train' for their off spring.

Edited April 13, 2022 by phil-b259

[Phil Parker]

1 minute ago, Dunsignalling said:

Fairly typical if you live in any town with a population under 50k. The only one of those mentioned that  have branches within 15 miles for me is WHS and none of those branches stock Hornby anyway. I don't think even the one in Exeter has for some while.

 

If you live in the West Country, Argos has ceased to exist other than for internet sales with collection possible from Sainsbury's. My nearest branch is 8 miles away, and I have 4 other supermarket chains within walking distance, as was my former Argos store which used to get quite a bit of my custom. I haven't bought anything from them since before lockdown. Amazon, and their Marketplace retailers offer a much greater choice, and  deliver to my door (free, I have Prime). I don't even look at the Argos website any more.

 

I have made purchases from John Lewis, but mainly on-line, and not including trains! For those I patronise specialist retailers. 

 

The Entertainer? Who?

 

John

 

My point was that when you say "Also, very few "mainstream" retailers now stock model trains, Hornby or otherwise", this isn't accurate. Argos, John Lewis, Smiths are all mainstream, even if you don't have them locally, or chose to use them. I didn't include Amazon as the discussion was about physical stores, but they are very mainstream for most people, and stock Hornby.

 

And "The Entertainer" are a chain toy shop with 170 stores. That's pretty mainstream.

[phil-b259]

4 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Certain trains round here are definitely best avoided at the times various schools chuck out in the afternoon, not that a noticeable number of the scholars are badly behaved but they do tend to be noisy.  As far as our local branch is concerned,  going off the figures in the Station Usage estimates, I reckon the local 6th Form College - which draws in youngsters from several much larger towns within a radius of about 20 miles - is probably responsible for well in excess of a quarter of a million passengers per annum with some trains loading up to about 75% load factor on a 3 car DMU.

 

Its not unique.

 

The Redhill to Tonbridge line is not very well used but a huge number of school children use the trains to get to Tonbridge from Edenbridge.

[Phil Parker]

4 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

My point is that the commercial world has moved on and, in only in a very few cases is being "the household name" relevant in the way it was 50 years ago.

 

If it doesn't matter, why is there a TV series called "Hornby: A Model World"? Or why do Key Publishing pay good money to licence the name for thier model railway magazine?

[Dunsignalling]

2 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

My point was that when you say "Also, very few "mainstream" retailers now stock model trains, Hornby or otherwise", this isn't accurate. Argos, John Lewis, Smiths are all mainstream, even if you don't have them locally, or chose to use them. I didn't include Amazon as the discussion was about physical stores, but they are very mainstream for most people, and stock Hornby.

 

And "The Entertainer" are a chain toy shop with 170 stores. That's pretty mainstream.

Just Googled it. Nearest store is 65 miles away. Not mainstream enough for me!

 

John

[Dunsignalling]

34 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

If it doesn't matter, why is there a TV series called "Hornby: A Model World"? Or why do Key Publishing pay good money to licence the name for thier model railway magazine?

Perhaps, but is all that still as relevant as the people paying for it think it is? How dominant is Hornby magazine among the rest of the model railway titles, I wonder?

 

In any event, the emphasis in "Hornby a Model World" was on all Hornby's brands, not just the railway models/toys. 

 

Anybody who reads the Hornby magazine quickly discovers that Hornby trains are by no means the only ones on offer.

 

Hornby seem to be the only brand still pursuing train-set buyers with any enthusiasm (Bachmann's few offerings look very much the token efforts they are). If (Hornby) train sets truly remain an important port of entry into the hobby, one has to question why nobody else seems interested in grabbing a share of the cake....

 

John 

Edited April 13, 2022 by Dunsignalling