EXHIBITING UK LAYOUT IN EU

[fulton]

I have exhibited layouts in Holland, Belgium, Luxembourg and Germany in the past and was due to exhibit in Rodgau Germany this year, but this exhibition has been cancelled due to worries over covid. Could there be any problems transporting a UK layout to the EU and back again in a van, I travel regularly by car and only the passengers get checked, I did have a novel experiance last time I travelled back to the UK, the French Police put my car through an X ray machine, saying they were looking for stowaways, which made me smile as I drive a Toyota Aygo! Anyway looking for knowledgable advice or actual experiance. Thank you.

[Chris M]

I have heard that you may need some official paperwork but I don’t know. It seems you might need permission to import and export it (even though you aren’t doing either) or you may have to declare what it is made from (which could be interesting). It is a good question and one that as a hobby we need a definitive answer to. It might be worth asking HMRC for advice. If they can’t help then ask your MP for advice.

[Andy Hayter]

https://www.gov.uk/taking-goods-out-uk-temporarily?step-by-step-nav=b9347000-c726-4c3c-b76a-e52b6cebb3eb

 

It is going to be a bit of palaver. 

Edited April 11, 2022 by Andy Hayter

[Chris M]

If I read that, and other items on the web, correctly then there could well be quite a problem. It seems there is an issue with anything over a value of either 300 or 450 Euros and documentation will be required for items of higher value in order to avoid duty . That could make life complicated when we take smartphones on holiday with us. Add laptops, iPads, cameras etc to that and will everyone going on holiday need special documentation?

 

As for taking a model railway abroad, I imagine the layout itself would be quite straightforward but how about the stock?

The stock list for an exhibition layout could be quite long and the items will almost certainly have a combined value well into the thousands or even over £10,000.  If you need documentation you would need to make an exact list of everything you take some time before you go and stick to it rigidly. Just imagine the pain of having to go through every item of stock you have with you and checking them off against your documentation at the customs post.

luckily for me I don’t expect to be invited to exhibit in the EU.

 

I do hope I’ve misinterpreted things.

[Chris M]

I’ve found this about entering France:-

“Your personal belongings
No tax or customs procedures are required for personal belongings entering France. Their nature and quantity must not imply commercial purposes.
When you are returning from a third country*, customs officers may ask you for evidence that tax and duty is not owed on certain items (jewellery, cameras, computers, camcorders, mobile phones, etc.). You must show invoices or customs receipts to prove that you purchased the items inclusive of tax in the European Union or, if you purchased them in a third country*, that you have already paid any duties and taxes owing in the European Union.
To spare you the trouble of carrying all these documents, and to facilitate customs clearance of your personal belongings, you may obtain a single document called the free circulation card*. The free circulation card is free of charge, valid 10 years from date of issue and renewable. You can obtain one at any customs office by presenting your belongings together with supporting documents (invoices, customs receipts, warranty certificates, etc.). As and when you purchase new items, you may have additional entries listed on your card by applying to the same office that issued the original card.”

 

I guess the issue would be proving that the layout and stock were your personal belongings. Maybe just a signed list of everything stating it is all yours and you are taking it out and bringing it all back would be enough? Would you have to prove you were exhibiting for pleasure and not for commercial gain? The idea of giving your time for free at an exhibition and not selling anything might be a struggle to get across. I wonder if rules would be different for a club layout compared to an individual’s layout?

Edited April 11, 2022 by Chris M

[fulton]

Next time I will be travelling to Germany, will be in my own van, empty, in May, will ask customs at the border, for advise, no information at Eurotunnel when I made the booking, I suspect it all depends on private or commercial, my van is insured for private use only.

[cp409067]

5 hours ago, fulton said:

I have exhibited layouts in Holland, Belgium, Luxembourg and Germany in the past ..... Could there be any problems transporting a UK layout to the EU and back again in a van, ..... Thank you.

 

*

In the past I too have exhibited layouts a number of times in the EU - specifically in France, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, and Germany. This was via Eurotunnel and using my own large MPV (in effect a van with windows and some seats removed if necessary). I never had any difficulty doing this up to and including the last occasion in 2018.

 

From what I have heard recently there will now be a considerable amount of paperwork to be completed - indeed so much as to make exhibiting in the EU from the UK impossible. As others have said the matter seems to be related to the need to demonstrate that one is not engaged in the process of importing or exporting.

 

CP

[boxbrownie]

I used to travel and work regularly in Europe before the “free trade area” was a glint, all fairly easy…..I say all because it was a bit long winded mainly as it was commercial travel, every item had to be listed and numbered for the carnet, it had to be stamped by the local U.K. commerce office, after that never an issue.

 

If it was private travel for leisure even expensive camera equipment was fine, provided it did indeed look like equipment an enthusiast or keen photographer might take on holiday with them.

 

No doubt it has not gone back to exactly the same as then but I would have thought something like a model railway layout stuffed in a car or van along with the commensurate locos and rolling stock would look the same, purely a leisure activity, especially if you have a booking or correspondence from the exhibition your attending.

 

Really it’s down to reading the rules carefully and whatever you do NEVER try and joke with a customs official.

[Foulounoux]

Given a typical exhibition layout is a high value then formal export declarations will be needed

 

The export is temporary so certain codes are used to ensure duty isn't paid either on the import into say France or on the return

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/uk-trade-tariff-customs-procedure-codes/exports-customs-procedure-codes

 

Is the page to check the exact code 

10 00 000 is std export

23 00 000 is tempoary export with return in unaltered state

You need to keepmcopies of the export declarations in order to reclaim duty on import 

 

 

Likewise

40 00 000 is a std import

 

 

Best bet is to find an agent used to managing exhibitions they wil charge a fee but these can be as low as 25 pounds

[Mr.S.corn78]

Hi,

 

I am in the same position with a possible invite to Holland next year and have been looking into it and this is my understanding of the process from reading the HMRC website. Now I may totally be wrong but there are two diffrent ways of doing it and that alters what paperwok is needed or not needed depending on each method

 

So first thing I found was that if you are sending the layout on ahead ie the layout will be travelling on its own it would need the export and import paperwork to accompany it as it would be classed as goods.

 

Second is the way most of us will be doing it with it, either being in a van or a car and all you need for that is an itemsied list of the items you are taking with you i.e. 1 x layout, 15 x locos etc. This is to prove what you took you have brought back and not added anything extra i.e. 2 new locos. I also suspect that if you have fellow operators travelling then they will need to list their items separately to yours, again to prove what is how as to a customs offical it may look a bit suspisus that you are taking 35 sound fitted DCC locos.

 

As I said thats my understanding from reading the HMRC website and once the invite is confirmed I will be contcating HMRC about it all and I have a feeling they will only direct me to the website as they won't know either.

 

I will of course update you once I know anything else and hope if any one else is doing sooner rather than later, they will post up thier findings here so we can all benfit from the knowlage.

 

 

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

Not that I'm likely to be invited to an exhibition, but it would be interesting to see how Span Yard, layout in a suitcase, would be dealt with as it travels as hold baggage in my suitcase.

 

Mike.

[AndrewC]

As HMRC seem to be making up things as they go along, I would talk to a customs broker to see if you need a Carnet or not for the layout and stock. My understanding (having worked on some of the new systems) is that if you are making any money from the exhibition, your layout and stock would qualify as tools of business. (much like a musician now has to Carnet and catalogue every single item they take into the EU to play a gig) If you are exhibiting purely as a hobby the it becomes a very grey area, especially if you are being paid expenses. It could be argued that your attendance is generating part of the show's income.  Likely you would be best off with a fully recorded inventory before leaving the UK. Again, contact a customs expert first. I'd hate to see you nailed at the border upon return with no proof of original export. 

 

 

[Andy Hayter]

If you look at my original link to the UK government website , you will see that there are 2 ways you can document the goods being taken for exhibition purposes and for re-import.

 

One is to apply for a carnet - which will come with a cost the wrong side of £300 so I think we can forget that.

 

The other is to fill out a simple form with an accompanying list of items being exported and for later import.  The form and list are shown to customs on exiting the UK.  I would suggest the only open question, which can be asked as you leave the country, is whether on return you go through the red channel.   

[Phil Parker]

I've just carried out a little Br***t clean up on this thread. Can we stick to practical matters ONLY.

 

We are where we are whether anyone likes it or not, and no amount of arguing on a toy train forum will change this.

[queensquare]

49 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

I've just carried out a little Br***t clean up on this thread. Can we stick to practical matters ONLY.

 

We are where we are whether anyone likes it or not, and no amount of arguing on a toy train forum will change this.

 

Thats fair enough Phil, it's been a long time since I had a post removed!

 

That said, you might as well close the thread as if you are not allowed to mention Brexit then  the whole discussion becomes pointless.  I'm in regular contact (weekly at the moment)  with one of the organisers of the large  Utrecht show where there used to be an entire area dedicated to Brits and they aren't bothering as it's just too complicated. Great shame but there you go.

 

Jerry

[snitchthebudgie]

East Surrey N Gauge took modules to form part of the layout at the N Club International meet at Stuttgart for over 10 years.  Then we left Europe (to say nothing of covid).  Our assessment was that it was either too expensive or too complicated to take layouts to Germany now - but we'd be delighted to see a clarification of this, and some clear rules.  Incidentally, the Swiss members of NCI had exactly the same problems taking layouts to Germany - endless lists of trains and a long, long time to get through customs both ways.  I suspect it is now the same for us in the UK.

[fulton]

1 hour ago, queensquare said:

 

Thats fair enough Phil, it's been a long time since I had a post removed!

 

That said, you might as well close the thread as if you are not allowed to mention Brexit then  the whole discussion becomes pointless.  I'm in regular contact (weekly at the moment)  with one of the organisers of the large  Utrecht show where there used to be an entire area dedicated to Brits and they aren't bothering as it's just too complicated. Great shame but there you go.

 

Jerry

As my original post, it does not matter how we got to be here, I would like to continue to exhibit in the EU, what are the practical steps? I suspect like exporters it was very difficult, seemingly impossible at times, but has settled down, yes more work but possible.

Edited April 19, 2022 by fulton
Missing word

[Kylestrome]

1 hour ago, snitchthebudgie said:

Incidentally, the Swiss members of NCI had exactly the same problems taking layouts to Germany

 

I'm surprised about that. When I've traveled to and from Switzerland from here (Germany) it was just a case of driving across the border, just like to any Schengen EU country.

 

David

[snitchthebudgie]

54 minutes ago, Kylestrome said:

 

I'm surprised about that. When I've traveled to and from Switzerland from here (Germany) it was just a case of driving across the border, just like to any Schengen EU country.

 

David

 

Not with a large van full of N gauge modules, and thousands of pounds worth of rolling stock.....

[SM42]

 

A grey area at best  on Gov. UK, which doesn't help, and I suspect many will find it either too hard or too expensive to jump through the hoops. 

 

It's a real shame and understandably people volunteering to exhibit a model railway for fun was not something high on the list,( if it even made the list) of priorities during the Brexit negotiations.

 

I fear even seeking professional advice will come at a cost that would be prohibitive to many. 

 

I remember back in the days of the negotiations hearing a radio interview with the owner of a transport company going through what he needed to do to take equipment for an exhibition temporarily to Norway and that this would now apply to anything cross Channel. 

 

It wasn't pretty nor cheap.

 

Andy

 

[Ian Morgan]

On 19/04/2022 at 12:34, Kylestrome said:

 

I'm surprised about that. When I've traveled to and from Switzerland from here (Germany) it was just a case of driving across the border, just like to any Schengen EU country.

 

David

 

Even before the 'B' word, with open borders, I was returning home from Luxembourg with some bits and pieces from my flat, including an Ikea coffee table (purchased in France) in the back of my Volvo estate. A few miles into Belgium, I was stopped by the Belgium Customs who asked lots of questions before letting me resume my journey.

 

[fulton]

Travelled to Germany yesterday, with Eurotunnel, in my Ford Transit Connect, no checks other than Passport, vehicles were being checked at random, did not witness any paperwork being checked, when booking a van with Eurotunnel, you have to confirm not being used for commercial purposes, there is another booking page for that, my reading of UK and French Gov. sites all seem to make a big distinction between "private and personal use" and "transporting goods for hire or reward and commercial goods", only my PERSONAL reading is that a model railway where you only receive expenses would not have any restrictions, will report anything different on my return in a few weeks.

[fulton]

Just to update, travelled back to UK today, van checked for stowaways at the Belgium, French border, you now get diverted off the main E40 through a French Police Check point, looks like a semi permeant setup, at Eurotunnel, van again checked for stowaways, I asked about Model Railway Layouts, they only seemed interested in checking for stowaways or excessive amounts of cigarettes and alcohol.