Rydes Vale Mainline Restoration

[SiHumph]

Only just joined RM Web and have started this as a blog then though maybe a thread is better. So just copied the blog onto this thread. Let me know which is the best way to continue to this and bring it up to date

 

Some people may have seen some of my videos on YouTube around lockdown showing the start of my restoration of the mainline section of the historic Rydes Vale 2mm layout. Well I thought best I join RM Web and use this to interact with you all and to chronicle my progress.

 

Firstly for a bit of background, Bert Groves was my Godfather (and later Step Grandfather) and has always been a father figure to me throughout my life. It was Bert that ignited and fuelled my love of model railways in my early years and from the age of 5 I had helped Bert exhibit the MPD section of the Rydes Vale at a few Astolat exhibitions around Guildford

 

I always knew that the Rydes Vale had another part to it but, up until after Phoebes death (His Wife and my Grandmother) I had never seen it. The Mainline section had spent my entire life (from 1969) in the loft of their house in Guildford. Once it was removed from the loft it was offered to the 2mm association but it was not clear that they could take this on and for a short time it was destined to be delivered to the local landfill site. Obviously I could not let this happen so I took it into safekeeping and pondered what to do with it.

Edited April 11, 2022 by SiHumph
typos

[SiHumph]

Having not had any modelling experience in 2mm (I was mainly brought up with the usual OO out of the box stuff) I was not confident on attacking what is a large project on such an iconic layout so it remained safe but untouched for a few years until I plucked up the courage (or otherwise known as being constantly being moaned at by my wife to do something with it before she does!)

 

First thing I decided to do is see if we can get anything running on it but before I could do that I had to work out what was going on with the wiring. As it was getting on to 60 years old and there was no diagram of any wiring I thought the safest and easiest thing to do was to rip out all the wiring (down to rail connection points) and then work out what is connected to where.

 

 

 

 

As you can see above there really wasnt any point in trying to trace cabling here and some looms were simply not connected to anything either end!

 

 

[SiHumph]

The plan also was to remove all the screws that were used to provide soldering points and replace them with tag strips and all connections labelled and to start constructing wiring diagrams. So with my cutters sharpened and and my trusty weller soldering iron cleaned I set to work and after a few days work the underside of the Rydes vale looked a little less daunting

 

 

 

 

At this point, with all track feeds identified and accessible it was time to clean the track and check for loose rails and with some temporary croc clip cables try running a loco. Before track cleaning I decided to remove all the lineside accessories as these will all need cleaning and possibly repairing and also this allowed easier access to repair the track where needed. Below is a link to my dropbox of the first loco to run on the Rydes Vale in over 50 years.

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/bn7xaywtyhh5c1m/IMG_8674.MOV?dl=0

[SiHumph]

It is testament to the quality of the Groves modelling skills and build quality of the trackwork that only around half a dozen soldered track joints had cracked and these were easily cleaned and reflowed. The track is secured to the board and to the electrics by steel pins that are soldered to the underside of the rails at every sleeper point, these pins are then soldered together with wire on the underside and each end of the rail then has wires dropped from it, these are all hidden from view on the underside unfortunately, the four wires from each track section is then taken to the viewable underside and terminated (was to brass screws and now to tag strips). Don't forget this layout was built to prove the Groves standard trackwork could withstand the rigours of exhibitions and has definately proved that, to see see locos now running on it with very minimal work just proves its rugedness, to be honest it could probably withstand being run over by the vehicle carrying it, its that well made.

 

It was nice to see my Son getting involved during this process and with a few lessons on soldering he took great pride in completeing a few joints in the new loom creation. One demand I made on myself was to keep as much of the original layout as possible and reuse what ever I could ,as long as it was in keeping with more modern electrical safety standards. You can see from the previous pictures what looks like a couple of Ronson shavers! These were employed as track bed vibrators in case of a loco stall and in use are very effective and give far more vibration than modern brusheless vibrators that I was encouraged to use. Originally the 240VAC was switched by two of the micro switches on the control panel and you could easily touch the switch terminals in normal operation if you were not careful! Obviously this was a no no. I decided to change the shaver mains switch to 115VAC and use relays to switch this in a completely insulated box and then use the normal 12VDC accessory feed to switch the relays. The 115VAC is supplied by a seperate Auto Transformer and is totally independant of all the other electrics so the layout can be used without it (if I am honest I can never remember seeing a Groves loco stall in the times I used them at exhibitions)

 

The original GPO switch enclosure was repurposed as the power connection housing and a new panel and housing created to house all the GPO switches plus a couple of extra GPO push/pull switches I salvaged from one of Berts old H&M controllers. The link to my you tube channel shows where we are upto now.

 

Please feel free to reply as I'm keen to receive advice on the new challenges I will be facing in this restoration. The wiring bit I find easy myself but now we go onto areas where I really need to develop my skills. Next I will be attacking the scenery, firstly I am going to try and get the 'lift off' train turntable section into something I am happy with and then take that and apply it to the rest of the layout. I have to repair the existing signals and build another two that had been removed from the layout by Bert and have been lost. I have the jig for making the lattice work but quite how I use it is a mystery.

 

Currently I am using a rewheeled GF diesel to prove the layout but I have a plan to create and fit AJ couplings to all the new stock I create as well as being able to replace any coupling son the existing stock I have.

 

I'm sure readers will be keen to know of the original Groves locos and rolling stock that was used with this layout and I can confirm these are all safe and bringing them back to life is something that is being discussed currently.

 

 

 

 

 

[Ian Morgan]

Quite a few years ago, Bert Groves came to our Basingstoke exhibition and introduced himself. He had a signal in a small clear plastic case that he liked to show everyone. It had the remains of a dead mosquito attached to it, and Bert pointed out that the legs of the mosquito were thicker than the hand rail around the signal platform.

 

Might this have been one of the missing signals?

 

 

[SiHumph]

Hi Ian

 

thanks for the reply. Yes it probably was one of the missing signals, he was quite a showman in his day and I think there is also a story of him showing it off on a flight to on a VC10 to South Africa as well as “playing trains” in the cockpit.
 

We have hunted high and low amongst the huge amount of bits and bobs that were left but alas to no avail.

 

if you have any photographs of it that would be great in order for me to try and recreate it 

 

thanks

Simon

[Ian Morgan]

1 hour ago, SiHumph said:

if you have any photographs of it that would be great in order for me to try and recreate it 

 

 

Sorry, no. It was well over 20 years ago.

 

[2mmMark]

7 hours ago, SiHumph said:

Hi Ian

 

thanks for the reply. Yes it probably was one of the missing signals, he was quite a showman in his day and I think there is also a story of him showing it off on a flight to on a VC10 to South Africa as well as “playing trains” in the cockpit.
 

We have hunted high and low amongst the huge amount of bits and bobs that were left but alas to no avail.

 

if you have any photographs of it that would be great in order for me to try and recreate it 

 

thanks

Simon

I'll have a look in the box of bits David Balchin passed on to me when I went to Berts to look over the remains of the Rydes Vale after it had been brought down from the loft.

The tale of running trains in the VC10 cockpit was told to me personally by Bert when I visited him. He showed me his folding oval test track.  The flight deck of the VC10 is like a ballroom compared to modern day aircraft. There's space for 5 people in comfort - two pilots, flight engineer + panel, navigator + table and a spare seat.

Mark

 

[SiHumph]

Thanks Mark that would be greatly appreciated.

 

simon

[SiHumph]

As a slight aside from the layout work, which is ticking over, I have been concentrating on something that hopefully visitors to Derby will enjoy. 
 

We couldn’t let an event like the diamond jubilee go by without a little bit of homage paid to Bert and his father. So David and I got together to see what we could cobble up. 
 

I will have a selection of the original HH locos on display (and thanks to Tim W in running condition) as well as a few interesting items of rolling stock, tooling and  moulding dies from the Rydes Vale. 
 

Mark, the folding test track is still surviving too!

[CF MRC]

I have been privileged to be working on the HH Groves locos. They are exquisite pieces of work. 

 

They feature incredibly fine worms and worm wheels as well as springing of the front axle. 

 

Motors are, of course, all hand made with ball races top and bottom - following the old HD style. 

 

They run as well as they look. 

 

The 2-6-2 is a very elegant engine with full working valve gear. 

 

Needless to say, iPhones have special microphones for amplifying motor and gear noise. 
 

Tim

 

 

 

 

Edited June 9, 2022 by CF MRC

[CF MRC]

I have been working on the final HH Groves 60+ years old engine of this batch: a diminutive Avonside 0-4-0 - needless to say with full working valve gear.
It needed a new collar soldering onto the rear of the union link at the cross head end. 

It's quite an attractive little engine. 

 

Tim

[Kylestrome]

On 09/06/2022 at 09:29, CF MRC said:

I have been privileged to be working on the HH Groves locos. They are exquisite pieces of work. 

 

Genuine works of art and built to last.

 

Thanks for sharing those close-up photos.

 

David

 

 

Edited June 14, 2022 by Kylestrome

[2mmMark]

I think the Avonside 0-4-0 featured in an early Association publicity leaflet, unpainted but looking equally exquisite.

 

[2mmMark]

Going through a box of bits & pieces (which I'm bringing to Derby) I was given by Simon's uncle, I came across this.  Anyone who's ever built a 2mm scale signal will appreciate what's involved!

 

[SR71]

2 hours ago, CF MRC said:

I have been working on the final HH Groves 60+ years old engine of this batch: a diminutive Avonside 0-4-0 - needless to say with full working valve gear.
It needed a new collar soldering onto the rear of the union link at the cross head end. 

It's quite an attractive little engine. 

 

Tim

I'm sorry to say that is clearly a 4mm model and the only logical explanation is that you have giant hands.

 

Etch walschearts scares me in 4mm, that is remarkable. And these are all 70's or earlier?

[CF MRC]

Simon thinks that quite a few of these engines were made in the late 50s, certainly very early 60s, because they feature in photos of the layout when first exhibited at Central Hall in 1961. 
 

I would make the valve gear a little bit more robust on the joints. 
 

Tim

[bécasse]

My recollection is that the layout ran throughout two MRC Central Hall shows, although it was a long time ago I stewarded at a nearby stand at both. It is perhaps worth remembering that these shows weren't for wimps, attendance was between forty and fifty thousand over a period of 52½ hours (in five days), plus an additional 90 minutes on the Wednesday for members' evening, and the MRC had scrapped the concept of "demonstration periods" for layouts by then so they were expected to operate continuously throughout the opening times. Rydesvale certainly did despite the considerable strain placed on the minute models - and their operators.

[2mmMark]

28 minutes ago, bécasse said:

My recollection is that the layout ran throughout two MRC Central Hall shows, although it was a long time ago I stewarded at a nearby stand at both. It is perhaps worth remembering that these shows weren't for wimps, attendance was between forty and fifty thousand over a period of 52½ hours (in five days), plus an additional 90 minutes on the Wednesday for members' evening, and the MRC had scrapped the concept of "demonstration periods" for layouts by then so they were expected to operate continuously throughout the opening times. Rydesvale certainly did despite the considerable strain placed on the minute models - and their operators.

Looking back through my archive of 2mm magazines, the Rydes Vale was definitely at the 1961, 1962, 1963 & 1965 Central Hall shows.  This is confirmed by some notes that Bert sent me when I was editing the 2mm Magazine, where he mentions using the same screw holes in the parquet flooring at each exhibition. I wonder if the Central Hall authorities were aware of that?

The last show was after the death of HH ("Pop") Groves early in 1965. That must have been hard work for Bert as his father worked almost full time maintaining the locos. There's a photo taken at one of the earlier shows (1961?) with Bert operating the layout and Pop with his back to the camera, sitting at a workbench.  Bert told me that the dust & fluff collected by the locos was considerable. Of course, there was no restriction on smoking inside, either.  The exhibition report in one of the 2mm magazines tells of 12 hour days from Tuesday to Saturday of Easter week.

My recollection of Central Hall in the 1960s & early 1970s was of a pretty crowded hall and a wait to see the layouts. In the final years before it moved to Wembley, I used to go after work in the evenings, riding my BSA Lightning 650 into town from where I worked at Heathrow. It was easy to park right outside the Hall after 6pm.  The show was much quieter in the evenings, I found.  Not something I'd do today but the journey times were much shorter then. Less traffic and no speed cameras...  😉

Central Hall had many shortcomings as an exhibition venue but definitely had a certain sense of occasion about the MRC shows. The MRJ show of 1990 recaptured a lot of that but at the cost of horrendous queues and overcrowding.

Mark

[St Enodoc]

8 minutes ago, 2mmMark said:

I wonder if the Central Hall authorities were aware of that?

Well, since the "Central Hall authorities" included Don Boreham, Secretary of the MRC, I wouldn't have been surprised.

[2mmMark]

16 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

Well, since the "Central Hall authorities" included Don Boreham, Secretary of the MRC, I wouldn't have been surprised.

"We asked for permission to drill some holes and Don said "bore 'em"..."

Edited June 15, 2022 by 2mmMark

[CF MRC]

The Groves locos generally have a clear plastic plate over the end of the worm, also covering the worm wheel, to stop fluff and hairs 'winding' into the mechanism. 
 

Exhibition hall environments could be (can be) quite grim. I remember exhibiting CF in Germany and finding a layer of cigarette butts against the barrier at the end of the day. In the olden days, men wore tweed jackets - a plentiful source of fibres. Olympia, with the Model Engineer Exhibition after the Horse of the Year Show, could be quite fruity...

 

The worst floors for fluff though are modern carpet tiles.  One of our A4s often ends up with whiskers like a handlebar moustache on the front bogie wheels. Some mechanisms seem to be worse than others at finding the stuff. 

The Groves mechanisms are quite incredibly fine, but not overly robust. 

Tim

 

[bécasse]

It is interesting that Rydes Vale layout always seemed to be between the two sets of steps up to the dais on the upper floor of Central Hall, very close to the kid-carrying live steam tracks - and therefore situated in an atmospheric environment that included vaporised cylinder oil as well as incinerated tobacco products, etc, etc, and yet, to my memory, it not only worked but worked well.

[SiHumph]

Great to meet so many people at the weekend and all of which were so appreciative and supportive of what I’m trying to do. So much thanks to Tim for all his support and encouragement in my project and thanks so so much to Mark for all those wonderful bits from RV that will prove invaluable.

 

Was amazing to watch the locos make brief cameos on CF North London line. They really looked at home amongst the other superb models on there

[SiHumph]

 Another imposter on the North London Line