My first "big" OO layout from an amateur

[MattR]

After building several small layouts (3 ft x 4 ft, 4 ft x 10 in, 4 ft by 18 in), I'm thinking about building a much larger one. This one will be an 8 ft x 2 ft end-to-end layout based on a real railway station (the now-demolished Summerseat station on the L&YR/LMS, now a small halt on the ELR) in pre-Grouping days.

 

Here's the track plan I've come up with (sorry for the poor quality photo) in AnyRail, making it as close to the real station's layout as possible. Some of the mainline and sidings may be not quire accurate in length, but it's really the layout of the points and powering everything that I'm concerned about. Any opinions of possible problems? Although first, some things to remember:

 

- I've only been doing model railway stuff since December 2020, so I'm not super-experienced.

 

- This layout will be DC only. On my previous small layouts, I just solder the wires from the controller to the rails at one point. I'm assuming with such a large layout that I'd have to use droppers and possibly wire some points. Is it possible to run this layout with just one controller, or will I need two? As mentioned below, I'm in the U.S., so I used Bachmann's standard controller and it's worked well for me. I don't think Gaugemaster makes anything with U.S.-style wall plugs on the cords.

 

- I'm from the U.S., and am used to Atlas turnouts (points) that are not power-routing. Peco points are amazing but I've had issues with them in the past due to their power-routing nature that throws me for a loop, These issues will crop up again in Points 5 and 7 on the photo. With Atlas points, these would be no problem, but with Peco's power-routing, these "backwards points" (as I call them -- I'm not sure the correct term) make the locomotives stop. I'm assuming these two have to be Electrofrog and have to be wired or maybe insulated in a certain way to allow them to work correctly, but I'm not sure what I need to do. The rest can be Insulfrog -- I've used three of them on my industrial shunting layout and they work perfect.

 

You guys are awesome and I've loved reading these threads for years, even before becoming a member, wanting to make my first large layout like the "big boys".

 

Edited September 27, 2022 by MattR

[Harlequin]

Hi Matt,

 

Minimally, you need power feeds at the toe of Point 7 (the point blades end), in between the toes of 6 and 5 and at the toe of Point 1. Insulating joiners would be needed in various places and, if both Point 1 and Point 5 were electrofrog, you'd need an extra power feed on the main line between those points.

 

It would be best to have even more feeds than that minimal set.

 

Probably best to stick to either electrofrog everywhere or insulfrog everywhere, BUT... There's another option:

 

Have you thought about using Peco Bullhead parts? The Bullhead turnouts use a new electrical setup called "Unifrog", which is not power routing - just like the Atlas you're used to. The available parts are a bit limited at the moment and there's no small radius turnout in the range but if you can hang on for the release of the Bullhead single slip you could use that in place of Points 6 and 5. That would be more prototypically correct and save you some valuable length.

 

Edited April 20, 2022 by Harlequin

[Mike Storey]

If you are using DC (and not DCC), before deciding on what and where to feed power to this layout, you first need to decide how many locos will operate on it at the same time. If only one, then you can wire up all feeds to the same "bus" wire, and that will suffice. But if two or more locos will be on scene, then you probably need to run separate feeds, each to an isolating switch, for each siding, and perhaps switch the running lines and loop into separate feeds too.

 

 

[MattR]

I'll have to look into to Unifrogs. They sound promising! As for the number of locomotives to run, I can't imagine having any more than one running at a time (as a DC guy, I'm used to it). As end-to-end layouts go, I imagine this is still pretty small, so it's not really worth it. Maybe a different story it it was a roundy roundy.

[RobinofLoxley]

Hello Matt, Is that the whole trackplan, I guess it is as it looks about 8' x 2 '

 

Just checking because I cant understand the purpose of point 1 if it is at the end of the layout as it cant be used for anything?

[MattR]

I'm not quite sure of the measurements of the non-point sections, so the dimensions there are definitely not nailed down.  I haven't yet translated the actual measurement of the track plan to the layout size. I may have more area available on the left side for Point 1 to be actually accessible from the mainline. The whole reason it's there in the first place is my attempt to replicate the real station's layout. But simplifying things isn't out of the question. Here's the a layout of Summerseat Station from the 1891 Ordnance Survey Map:

 

 

Edited April 20, 2022 by MattR

[Harlequin]

What you've shown us would work as a diorama but if you want to operate it you need at least a train length either side.

 

Don't worry about the size of the real thing - it almost certainly won't fit remotely in 8ft length.

 

P.S. Don't forget the small stub at the Point 1 end of the goods loop because that's characteristic of this type of station.

 

[MattR]

I'll see if I can fit the stub in!

 

Here's a condensed, rather crude mock-up I did in Adobe InDesign that's more-or-less to scale. I'll adjust my AnyRail plan tonight to match the new changes. Thanks for you help!

 

 

[boxbrownie]

If your a bit wary of wiring the points and system, why not do as I did on my last (and most likely last!) layout, I now longer can climb under and over things and wiring under baseboards and associated stuff is far too difficult, I looked around and decided to use Trix-C track as these are all power routed automatically whether using D.C. or DCC, I always use DCC now and they had the added advantage of being able to be fitted with point motors concealed within the built in track bed and powered from the track itself, the actual electrical “joiners” in the track do not rely on fishplates but good quality contacts under each section itself, I have built a smallish layout with fifteen points (If I remember) and all fed from just one power feed, it works perfectly and the track looks great especially with some weathering.

 

Initial test laying of track

[MattR]

Well, going back to AnyRail and creating the correctly-sized baseboard, it looks like this track plan is proportionally just too big for an 8x2 layout, even with removing the crossover between the up and down lines. A train would have to be less than 19" in length to be able to take the points into the sidings. Unless I seriously simplify it even more, I may have to put Summerseat on hold for one day when I can get 10 feet or more in length.

 

 

Edited April 21, 2022 by MattR

[MattR]

Hmmm, simplifying things further and using Peco set track points (SL-240 and SL-241), I've been able to condense the space a little bit (but using Streamline points where the siding comes back to the mainline on the left side), allowing for at most a 29-inch train to enter the siding. Still not enough room to re-add the crossover from the down line, unfortunately.

[woodenhead]

I'm confused - an American modelling the UK scene with no space.  It's ok, you don't have to adopt all our problems as well when modelling the Uk scene.   Surely like all Americans you have a basement or a garage that is as big as Buckingham Palace.

 

Seriously, though, maybe you are better off modelling an LYR goods yard rather than a through station - that way you get the same stock but not the problems of fitting a quart into a pint pot.

[MattR]

Well, I do have a two-car garage, but it's so full of stuff (two kids, you know) that there's only a narrow walkway available at any time (definitely no room for cars). The spare room this is going in also has three other layouts in it, plus bookshelves, a TV stand and a Barbie Dreamhouse, so space is still limited!

Edited April 22, 2022 by MattR

[woodenhead]

14 minutes ago, MattR said:

Well, I do have a two-car garage, but it's so full of stuff (two kids, you know) that there's only a narrow walkway available at any time (definitely no room for cars). The spare room this is going in also has three other layouts in it, plus bookshelves, a TV stand and a Barbie Dreamhouse, so space is still limited!

It's interesting, if you look on YouTube every American modeller has space for a system and then some and the trope is that every UK modeller is space starved.  But in reality, we're all a mixed bunch - some people have a couple of feet spare, some people can build Tehachapi in their basement and run full length trains.

[DCB]

23 hours ago, MattR said:

Hmmm, simplifying things further and using Peco set track points (SL-240 and SL-241), I've been able to condense the space a little bit (but using Streamline points where the siding comes back to the mainline on the left side), allowing for at most a 29-inch train to enter the siding. Still not enough room to re-add the crossover from the down line, unfortunately.

 

By using set track points you are shortening the layout slightly but making the track spacing wider, even streamline is wider than scale for the UK, and compromising running and the choice of stock you can run.   Out of the box a lot of RTR Locos struggle with 2nd radius and set track points are tighter than 2nd radius . Losing the diamond and creating a loop has changed the layout operationally.  With the prototype arrangement a goods can drop off or pick up wagons in either direction., yet a lazy incompetent signalman can't divert a main line train into a dead end siding at speed.  Its a very common arrangement adopted because lazy etc signalmen had diverted express trains into dead end sidings and damaged them, and killed a few people every now and again.   The spur to the right is very short on the full size.  Only the length of a point.  As drawn the crossover from main to loop at the left hand end has no useful purpose, the loop is not long enough for a train so all shunting has to be from the right hand end.   Without the diamond the track plan makes little sense.   When built shunting would have been primarily by men pushing wagons, it was only when the wagons got heavier that horses and locomotives were regularly employed.

[MattR]

Yeah, at this point I’m thinking of just scrapping the whole thing. Unless you’re making a shunting layout (which I already have) 8 feet is just too short for an end-to-end to provide much interest. I might just widen it from 2 feet to 3 and make a single track oval. Finding any locomotives/rolling stock for turn-of-the-century L&YR was proving next to impossible anyway.

[MattR]

After much consideration, I've converted this layout to an 8-foot by 3-foot oval. It'll still be based on Summerseat, but on its current preserved incarnation as a small halt on the East Lancashire Railway. It'll be single-track only (after the down line was removed in 1968), but with some alterations. The goods sidings will added back, albeit very much simplified. The layout will also be double-sided, with the back side representing the line as it moves through Rowlands/Brooksbottoms, the viaduct and bridge over the River Irwell and into the Brooksbottoms Tunnel. In addition to  the existing platform shelter, there will also be a fictional small station and platform signal box. I'm also planning on trying to scratchbuild a reasonable (but definitely not to scale) version of the Summerseat Goods Shed. Here's the plan as it stands now.

 

 

Edited May 4, 2022 by MattR

[Harlequin]

7 minutes ago, MattR said:

After much consideration, I've converted this layout to an 8-foot by 3-foot oval. It'll still be based on Summerseat, but on its current preserved incarnation as a small halt on the East Lancashire Railway. It'll be single-track only (after the down line was removed in 1968), but with some alterations. The goods sidings will added back, albeit very much simplified. The layout will also be double-sided, with the back side representing the line as it moves through Brooksbottoms, the viaduct and bridge over the River Irwell and into the Brooksbottoms Tunnel. In addition to  the existing platform shelter, there will also be a fictional small station and platform signal box. I'm also planning on trying to scratchbuild a reasonable (but definitely not to scale) version of the Summerseat Goods Shed. Here's the plan as it stands now.

 

 

 

That's a really nice solution given the constraints that you've got.

 

Maybe the sidings in the goods yard could be longer - you've got the room to do it.

If the oval was a few inches shorter there would be more room to model the tunnel mouth on the far right properly.

Maybe the station buildings should be at the left end of the platform? (And do you need both a station building and a shelter on the same platform?)

 

If you could squeeze 2 or 3 more inches width you could add a passing loop to the station, which would add to the interest.

 

[woodenhead]

Why not remove the station and adopt something like the Keighley and Worth Valley passing loop at Damens?

 

Then you could also adjust your small goods yard into three stock sidings to hold additional coaches or whatever else you wish to run.

 

It would increase operating potential and reduce the need to lift stock on and off the layout.

[boxbrownie]

If you moved the siding to the left a bit you could get a point in between the running line point and the siding point and have a little headshunt, keep the running line clear while you play trains in the sidings.

[MattR]

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Maybe the sidings in the goods yard could be longer - you've got the room to do it.

 

It's possible. At the real Summerseat station, the two goods sidings (the ones not going to the goods shed) were really short. Judging from the photos, were maybe only able to hold 4 wagons or so.

 

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If the oval was a few inches shorter there would be more room to model the tunnel mouth on the far right properly.

 

Yeah, that's something that'll definitely get fixed when I start physically building it.

 

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Maybe the station buildings should be at the left end of the platform? (And do you need both a station building and a shelter on the same platform?)

 

At the real Summerseat, both the station on the up platform and the shelter on the down platform were on the extreme south (right) ends of the platform. Even today, while the shelter (now on the up side) is further north than the station once was, it's still much closer to the southern end. Maybe the station building is now just a cafe with no waiting room?

 

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If you could squeeze 2 or 3 more inches width you could add a passing loop to the station, which would add to the interest.

 

I'd thought about it, and earlier versions of the plan had it. Trying to work it up in AnyRail, with all the pointwork, the curvature needed for the flex track for the runaround was very very precise without making it too tight, and I'm not sure I trust myself to get the curve right. Eventually I removed it to make it more like the original station layout. 

 

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Then you could also adjust your small goods yard into three stock sidings to hold additional coaches or whatever else you wish to run.

 

I really put the long-removed goods sidings in as a picturesque call back to the original station layout before they were ripped up in '70s. I don't feel they're so much about complicated operations (I have a good-sized shunting layout for that) or large amounts of storage, but getting the "look" right, at least to some small degree.

Edited May 5, 2022 by MattR

[MattR]

It's been a while. I've finally collected the materials to begin work on the baseboard. The layout hasn't changed a whole lot since I last posted, except for extending the left-hand siding into one long enough for coach storage. The platform, signal box, shelter and station have all been completed, as well as my representation of the Brooksbottoms viaduct.

 

The main star has arrived, the new Bachmann L&YR Class 5 in L&YR livery, along with three non-corridor suburban LMS coaches.

 

The purchase a few weeks ago of a treadmill his provided me with a bunch of styrofoam to use as the basis for the hill at the center.

 

I've also been able to source a large, high-resolution photo of Holcombe Hill to use as the left-hand backscene.

Edited August 8, 2022 by MattR