GWR loco coal wagons - were they ever in red livery?

[magmouse]

I am currently working on a Slaters (ex Coopercraft) GWR loco coal wagon, diagram N13 (below). As the painting stage approaches, I have to bite the bullet and commit to a decision about livery - grey or black? I don't want to rehearse this debate here, as it has been covered at length on the forum and elsewhere, with no decisive outcome.

 

However, as I was researching the N13, I got excited about the prospect of other loco coal wagons - the earlier N6 with extended sides, and the even earlier wooden wagons - both of which would make for visual interest. But my eye was really caught by the 20T diagram N4, as shown in GW Wagons Appendix, figs 61 and 62, with the short-lived Thomas screw brake, cast number plates and massive, 12" deep solebars.

 

So, my question is, as the N4s were built in 1898, would they have been painted red? If one subscribes to the view loco coal wagons were painted grey as other stock, not black, then it would make sense they were red before the grey wagon livery came in. The official photos in GWWA show the wagon in a dark colour, which I can perfectly well believe is red. Or grey. Or black...

 

The prospect of a future red loco coal wagon is alluring enough to convince me to paint the current model grey, in line with that logic. Thoughts, anyone?

 

Nick.

 

PS As we all like a picture, here is the N13 on the workbench, nearly ready for the paintshop. This has required quite a lot of work, as the kit is a scale 6" too narrow, and has square corners, not round. I have also added brass strip to make the L-section along the top edge, upgraded the brake gear with WEP parts, and added solebar detail: the T-irons extending to the solebar; the triangular body supports; door stops. I have also extended the headstocks to create the angled ends.

 

[Compound2632]

If one makes the assumption that Great Western wagon red was an red lead-based paint, whilst the grey was white lead-based, these being the cheapest pigments for engineering use in the period, then the properties of the two chemicals comes into play. Both are water-repellent but, as I understand it, white lead is the more effective for wood and other organic materials (hence its widespread use as the basis for wagon greys of all shades and the white of canvas-covered carriage roofs) while red lead is better for metal - the Forth Bridge being perhaps the most iconic example, to the extent that the non-lead-based paint now used is matched to the original red lead colour.

 

The Great Western was, in its early days, much addicted to iron wagons, and indeed returned to that material in the 1880s for the well-known iron mink, and subsequently for these loco coal wagons, as well as making widespread use of iron underframes. Does this, possibly, explain the red wagon livery?

 

So, from a paint-theoretical standpoint, red lead ought to be the preferred colour for your iron loco coal wagon.

 

(On the other hand, other companies who painted their wagons red lead colour - Caledonian, Great Northern, South Eastern - were uses of conventional timer-framed and bodied wagons.)

[Miss Prism]

There's an 1888 pic of a P5 ballast wagon in the bible whose body colour is different from the chassis. I've little doubt the GWR was using black for the underframes of some wagons before the all-grey regime took over.

[magmouse]

33 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

So, from a paint-theoretical standpoint, red lead ought to be the preferred colour for your iron loco coal wagon.

 

And who would not be persuaded by a paint-theoretical argument?

 

The only thing about the idea that the move to grey was that it would be better for wagons made mostly of wood is that they grey chosen was dark, with relatively little white lead in it. Surely a lighter grey, as used by other railway companies, would be preferred? In any case, the practicalities can't have been the main driver, or they would have continued with red for iron wagons. Assuming the technical advantages were real, or believed to be real, they didn't entirely trump the desire for a unified corporate look.

 

The red N4 is increasingly alluring....

 

Nick.

[magmouse]

24 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

There's an 1888 pic of a P5 ballast wagon in the bible whose body colour is different from the chassis. I've little doubt the GWR was using black for the underframes of some wagons before the all-grey regime took over.

 

Indeed, while other photos are of high enough quality for us to be confident they show a single colour - whatever that colour was! If only we had more pictures at high quality, we might have more of a sense of whether the wagon you are referring to was pretty much a one-off, or part of a pattern to paint certain wagons in a certain way at a certain period of time.

 

Nick.

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, magmouse said:

The only thing about the idea that the move to grey was that it would be better for wagons made mostly of wood is that they grey chosen was dark, with relatively little white lead in it. Surely a lighter grey, as used by other railway companies, would be preferred? 

 

I'm not sure about that. The Midland's light grey used just 4 lb of black to 112 lb of white lead; the LNWR's mid grey was a 50/50 mix; even a darker grey would still contain a sufficient proportion of white lead to protect the woodwork.

 

On the subject of white lead, just the other day I was looking through a specification issued by Derby for tenders for wagons to be constructed for the S&DJR. This specifies the use of white lead in all joints in the woodwork - mortices, tenons, etc. - and also for bedding in ironwork bolted to the woodwork such as brackets, straps, and knees. 

[magmouse]

7 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I'm not sure about that. The Midland's light grey used just 4 lb of black to 112 lb of white lead; the LNWR's mid grey was a 50/50 mix; even a darker grey would still contain a sufficient proportion of white lead to protect the woodwork.

 

Fair point, if the black pigment is that powerful, which I can believe. Is there a recipe for the GWR colour somewhere?

 

Nick.

[Miss Prism]

20 minutes ago, magmouse said:

Is there a recipe for the GWR colour somewhere?

 

http://www.gwr.org.uk/liverieswagongrey.html

 

[magmouse]

2 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

 

http://www.gwr.org.uk/liverieswagongrey.html

 

 

Thanks - I thought I had seen it somewhere.

[melmerby]

9 minutes ago, magmouse said:

 

Fair point, if the black pigment is that powerful, which I can believe. Is there a recipe for the GWR colour somewhere?

 

Nick.

In "Great Western Way"

Freight stock painted: "two coats of white lead to which a little black is added, one coat of black to which a liitle white lead has been added".

Not very precise!

[magmouse]

3 minutes ago, melmerby said:

In "Great Western Way"

Freight stock painted: "two coats of white lead to which a little black is added, one coat of black to which a liitle white lead has been added".

Not very precise!

 

Maybe not precise, but with the important (and I suppose obvious now it's stated) point that the undercoat was a different colour to the top coat, with more of the preserving white lead in it. 

 

Nick

[Dave John]

If each coat of paint is a very slightly different shade then it is easy for the paintshop foreman to see that the whole thing has been properly painted and that by the end of the job the correct layers of paint have been applied.  A method used widely, not just for railways. 

 

Mind you , I bet a few fly painters knew how to get round that one. 

 

 

 

[57xx]

19 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

 

http://www.gwr.org.uk/liverieswagongrey.html

 

 

Isn't that speculative though? I thought there was no official documentation on the paint mixes, not like we have for Midland and LMS painting schedules for example?

[Miss Prism]

3 hours ago, 57xx said:

Isn't that speculative though?

 

Yes.

 

The conjectured 7:1 ratio of black to white has an origin in an old thread, but there's not much point in searching for it now.

 

Edited May 3, 2022 by Miss Prism