1960s CLASS 35 HYMEK WORKINGS

[paul 27]

Did this class ever work as far north as Crewe as some other Western Region locos 

like Warships and Westerns have not seen any 60s steam era photos to prove this.

Edited May 4, 2022 by paul 27

[stovepipe]

I'm aware of a couple of examples:

 

8th Nov 1967 D7082 was seen at Stockport on a Barry Docks – Healey Mills Freight. It worked LE back to Gloucester.

19th Nov 1968 D7056 was seen at Colwick on a freight from Cowley.

 

 

[paul 27]

9 hours ago, stovepipe said:

I'm aware of a couple of examples:

 

8th Nov 1967 D7082 was seen at Stockport on a Barry Docks – Healey Mills Freight. It worked LE back to Gloucester.

19th Nov 1968 D7056 was seen at Colwick on a freight from Cowley.

 

 

Thanks i never knew they visiited the Manchester area in steam days 

would love to see a picture of this,  that is on western region workings.

 

Edited May 4, 2022 by paul 27

[The Stationmaster]

4 minutes ago, paul 27 said:

Thanks i never knew they visiited the Manchester area in steam days 

would love to see a picture of this.

And of course they all came from Manchester in the first place - but were worked light engine to Swindon for official acceptance by the WR M&EE folk.

[paul 27]

9 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

And of course they all came from Manchester in the first place - but were worked light engine to Swindon for official acceptance by the WR M&EE folk.

Yes i know built at Gorton  i have a picture of one in primer on a test working.

i should have said on workings from the western region in steam days,

post revised.

[MidlandRed]

12 hours ago, paul 27 said:

Did this class ever work as far north as Crewe as some other Western Region locos 

like Warships and Westerns have not seen any 60s steam era photos to prove this.

Unless my memory is playing tricks - weren’t the Hymeks one element of a range of WR (and SR) traction which worked the Crewe to Cardiff (and Portsmouth?) services at one time? I’m sure I’ve seen photos? 
 

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

And of course they all came from Manchester in the first place - but were worked light engine to Swindon for official acceptance by the WR M&EE folk.

Off topic alert…… via the GC (then presumably Woodford Halse, Banbury, Oxford, Didcot?) to HQ. Some nice photos on Flickr of such workings. 
 

 

Edited May 5, 2022 by MidlandRed

[The Stationmaster]

10 hours ago, MidlandRed said:

Unless my memory is playing tricks - weren’t the Hymeks one element of a range of WR (and SR) traction which worked the Crewe to Cardiff (and Portsmouth?) services at one time? I’m sure I’ve seen photos? 
 

Off topic alert…… via the GC (then presumably Woodford Halse, Banbury, Oxford, Didcot?) to HQ. Some nice photos on Flickr of such workings. 
 

 

Yes, and yes.  Joe Field, later WR Chief Traction Inspector used to go up to Manchester to collect and he also went to Gl;asgow to collect locos from NBL.  S Apparently the contrast between the two builders was stark - at Manchester the loco would not just be running when he arrived but was also usually tested on the BP site in multiple with another before he left with it and all the paperwork was ready and waiting.  At Glasgow it was unusual to actually find the loco capable of being handed over on the agreed delivery day as it was either incomplete or having various faults attended to or if hth loco was fit the paperwork wasn't;  he had a very low opinion of NBL as a result.

[The Johnster]

23 hours ago, MidlandRed said:

Unless my memory is playing tricks - weren’t the Hymeks one element of a range of WR (and SR) traction which worked the Crewe to Cardiff (and Portsmouth?) services at one time? I’m sure I’ve seen photos? 

They were certainly used on the Portsmouths, but I can't remember seeing them on the Crewes.  They appeared at Hereford, of course, on Paddington services via Worcester, which may account for the photos you saw?  The Cardiff-Crewe service started when the Cardiff/Bristol-Liverpool/Manchester trains were diverted to run via BNS, which was IIRC 1969 but may have been '70.  The stock used was initially Class 120 dmus, which had trouble timing the trains and were boosted by the addition of a 122 bubble car, locked out of use  but frequented by traincrews travelling home 'on the cushions' on the route.  The various configurations of seating benches made into beds, card school tables, and so on would have made an interesting study...

 

The 120/122 combos were replaced by class 25s and 5 coach mk1 sets, an improvement in comfort but the buffet service was lost.  The service was getting a bit of a reputation as a poor relation, and complaints were rife.  5 were too much for the 25s to keep time with (Hymeks would have played with the load, but they'd been withdrawn), and the load was reduced to 4.  Even this did not solve the problems; because of the connection from the WCML, Liverpool, and Manchester at Crewe and their propensity for late running, especially the up WCML trains, the Cardiffs often had time to make up to make connections at Cardfiff for Swansea and points west, and the 25s simply did not have enough in reserve to do this.  The last service of the day was particularly prone, and could mean considerable delay to the last down Paddington-Swansea (he booked connection which had to be held for it), and it's connections further west...

 

Eventually the 25s were replaced by 33s, which enabled eth and had a bit more poke in them but the load was reduced to 3 mk1s.  33s also appeared on Cardiff-Portsmouths, which they shared with 31s, and Cardiff-West Wales services.  The 33s were in turn replaced by eth fitted 37/4s, which were the locos that really ended the decades of struggling on this route, abeit making a bit of noise in doing so!  The restoration of through Cardiff-Manchester/Liverpool services via the North to West route co-incided with the 153 dmus' coming into service.

[MidlandRed]

@The Johnster I had in mind 1960s rather than post 1969, in the same sort of era that Warships were used on these trains. 

In terms of traction used later, the class 123s spent a time in the early 70s on the trains (and had been used Cardiff to Portsmouth when fairly new). The single cars used to increase available power with the DMUs were 121s (rather than 122s). I think the only 122 ever at Cardiff was W55019 (from circa 1964 until early/mid 1968), and used generally on the Penarth/Cadoxton shuttle (I’ve also seen a photo of it passing Tondu shed in around 1965!!). 

 

A bit off topic in respect of the OP, but Im intrigued by the comment about timekeeping on the WCML - it usually (barring serious incidents like power failures or OHL damage etc) has been good in my experience so I’m surprised you say this caused issues with connections and timekeeping on the Crewe to Cardiff section. Did the trains change loco at Crewe pre late 60s, using electric to Manchester/Liverpool. 

Edited May 6, 2022 by MidlandRed

[KeithMacdonald]

BRDatabase has a good list of the Hymeks assigned to Cardiff and Bristol

 

https://www.brdatabase.info/locoqry.php?action=class&id=31&type=D&page=alloc

 

Were any assigned further north?

[The Stationmaster]

31 minutes ago, MidlandRed said:

@The Johnster I had in mind 1960s rather than post 1969, in the same sort of era that Warships were used on these trains. 

In terms of traction used later, the class 123s spent a time in the early 70s on the trains (and had been used Cardiff to Portsmouth when fairly new). The single cars used to increase available power with the DMUs were 121s (rather than 122s). I think the only 122 ever at Cardiff was W55019 (from circa 1964 until early/mid 1968), and used generally on the Penarth/Cadoxton shuttle (I’ve also seen a photo of it passing Tondu shed in around 1965!!). 

 

A bit off topic in respect of the OP, but Im intrigued by the comment about timekeeping on the WCML - it usually (barring serious incidents like power failures or OHL damage etc) has been good in my experience so I’m surprised you say this caused issues with connections and timekeeping on the Crewe to Cardiff section. Did the trains change loco at Crewe pre late 60s, using electric to Manchester/Liverpool. 

WCML Elecctrification - as you know - was extended southwards so the traction changeover point also moved it originally being Crewe for Manchester and Liverpool trains subsequently moving southwards (for those trains) to Nuneaton c.1964,    I think, without checking, that  through electric working to London commenced around 1965/66.   Thus the only trains changing locos at Crewe in the late '60s would have been trains for Chester/Holyhead & North Wales and those for the WCML northwards from Crewe towards Preston and beyond.

 

Like you I can't recall any sort of regular pattern of delays on the WCML through any of that petiod wheI was travelling to/from Manchester and Liverpool several times a year via Euston.

[phil_sutters]

On 04/05/2022 at 23:17, paul 27 said:

Thanks i never knew they visiited the Manchester area in steam days 

would love to see a picture of this,  that is on western region workings.

 

I can't do you one at Manchester, but this one was heading that way! One of Dad's, although he was a reluctant photographer of oil boxes.

Edited May 6, 2022 by phil_sutters

[MidlandRed]

18 minutes ago, phil_sutters said:

I can't do you one at Manchester, but this one was heading that way! One of Dad's, although he was a reluctant photographer of oil boxes.

This was the era I had in mind - however I also have in mind the locos came off the trains at Crewe (there are a number of photos on line of WR locos, especially Warships, at Crewe station - I think some are light engines manoeuvring in the station between trains).  Presumably Warship use followed the Hymeks. 

Edited May 6, 2022 by MidlandRed

[stovepipe]

I've not seen any photos of Hymeks at Crewe on passenger trains. Warships and Westerns yes, but not Hymeks. I'm not sure they would have got beyond Gloucester or Birmingham in this period, other than for a lack of absolutely any other traction.

[MidlandRed]

56 minutes ago, stovepipe said:

I've not seen any photos of Hymeks at Crewe on passenger trains. Warships and Westerns yes, but not Hymeks. I'm not sure they would have got beyond Gloucester or Birmingham in this period, other than for a lack of absolutely any other traction.

Thinking was via the Pontypool Rd/ Hereford/Shrewsbury route. As shown in Phil Sutters post, at least one Hymek worked the train/route (albeit 1962). 

[The Stationmaster]

6 hours ago, MidlandRed said:

Thinking was via the Pontypool Rd/ Hereford/Shrewsbury route. As shown in Phil Sutters post, at least one Hymek worked the train/route (albeit 1962). 

I don't know if Salop men ever learnt Hymeks - I suspect that they probably didn't - so I don't know how far north a Hymek could have legitimately got on the North & West.  How far it got on a less than official basis is of course an entirely different matter and certain depots had reputations for working well beyond their official limits/extent of their diagrammed work or traction knowledge (and Hereford was one of them).

[stovepipe]

7 hours ago, MidlandRed said:

Thinking was via the Pontypool Rd/ Hereford/Shrewsbury route. As shown in Phil Sutters post, at least one Hymek worked the train/route (albeit 1962). 

 

Ah yes of course, I was forgetting about the North and West. And here we are at Hereford,

 

D7023-1M72-Hereford-5-5-1962-mike-hemming-collection by Mike Hemming, on Flickr

 

and Shrewsbury ready to depart.

D7032-1M58-Shrewsbury-19-5-1962-3-mike-hemming-collection- Copywrite John Lewis by Mike Hemming, on Flickr

Edited May 7, 2022 by stovepipe

[MidlandRed]

All of the photographs posted are of quite new Cardiff Canton locos. Not sure how long Hymeks ran the services but Warships seem to have taken over by the mid 60s. I think they all only worked as far as Crewe, though I have no evidence for that (other than seeing photos of apparent engine changes at Crewe - well certainly Warship class locos manoeuvring around the station) - I think they may have changed to AL loco there. 
 

53 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

I don't know if Salop men ever learnt Hymeks - I suspect that they probably didn't - so I don't know how far north a Hymek could have legitimately got on the North & West.  How far it got on a less than official basis is of course an entirely different matter and certain depots had reputations for working well beyond their official limits/extent of their diagrammed work or traction knowledge (and Hereford was one of them).

Wouldn’t this likely be an out and back turn for a Canton crew, with a Canton loco, at this time? Presumably in steam days Gresty Lane shed would have serviced the locos at the northern end of the North and West - Crewe South dealt with WR steam locos arriving at Crewe after Gresty Lane closed. 

[The Stationmaster]

12 minutes ago, MidlandRed said:

All of the photographs posted are of quite new Cardiff Canton locos. Not sure how long Hymeks ran the services but Warships seem to have taken over by the mid 60s. I think they all only worked as far as Crewe, though I have no evidence for that (other than seeing photos of apparent engine changes at Crewe - well certainly Warship class locos manoeuvring around the station) - I think they may have changed to AL loco there. 
 

Wouldn’t this likely be an out and back turn for a Canton crew, with a Canton loco, at this time? Presumably in steam days Gresty Lane shed would have serviced the locos at the northern end of the North and West - Crewe South dealt with WR steam locos arriving at Crewe after Gresty Lane closed. 

I don't know if the Cardiff men were relieved by Hereford  (who definitely knew the road to Salop and probably to Crewe).

 

Incidentally the Warships worked the long established West of England North & West services which ran via the Severn Tunnel and Maindee Curve and didn't call at Newport or Cardiff.  They basically replaced the Newton Abbot and Salop double home 'Castle' worked turns on the route but additionally worked through to Crewe instead of the previous engine change at Salop.  

 

Going back in time  few of the trains over the North & West to/from Manchester/Liverpool, normally only a couple a day, ran to/from  Cardiff.  The principal service was always between the West of England and the north west although some of those trains had South Wales (usually Cardiff) portions which were worked separately south of Pontypool Road.   The West of England trains were eventually re-routed via the Lickey as part of the run down of the North & West as a through passenger route with the long distance trains being concentrated on the route via Birmingham.   

[stovepipe]

There is a remark on this photo that suggests the Hymeks only worked the North & West up to the summer of 1962, which does fit with the photo evidence so far.

 

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

Could well be the case.  I'm trying hard to remember when the various timetable changes took place on the North & West although 1962 also suggests that they might well have been taken off the route to cover delayed deliveries of Type 4s.

 

Maybe it's time for a timetable delve to see if I can pin down the service change dates?   Fortunately I do have all the WR regional public timetables covering that period.

[The Stationmaster]

55 minutes ago, stovepipe said:

There is a remark on this photo that suggests the Hymeks only worked the North & West up to the summer of 1962, which does fit with the photo evidence so far.

 

 

 

Although that is a train, arriving at Bristol, which would in any case have been worked by a 'Warship'.  is there a suggestion that Hymeks replaced or supplemented 'Warships' on the WofE-NW services?

[Gwiwer]

There are members here with far more knowledge and experience than myself but I'll add weight to the comments that Hymeks didn't work to Manchester in traffic.  Nor to Crewe except possibly in extremis and with a traction pilot north of Hereford at least.  

 

They were the staple on Cardiff - Portsmouth turns for a few years between the class 123 DMUs and the wider use of 33s as SR freight and parcel duties dwindled and they became spare.   At the time Cardiff - Portsmouth and Cardiff - Crewe / Manchester duties were not inter-worked.  Class 25 worked the North & West where 3, 4 or 5 coach trains were the norm; 6 was the standard load for a Portsmouth until the buffet cars were withdrawn without replacement.  

 

When 33s took over those duties they also took over the North & West through clever diagramming and overnight berthing at Canton depot.  Their duties were of 2 - 3 days duration always working back to the SR for anything more than a daily exam.  In due course those duties also took 33s to Holyhead, Manchester and West Wales as linked turns.  5-coach loads were easily handled most of the time by a class which could play with 8 on the LSWR main line at its maximum permitted speed of 85mph with full e.t.h. supply to the train as well.  

 

Hymeks might have worked locally between Cardiff and Hereford though I have no photographic evidence to support that.  They covered Paddington - Worcester / Hereford duties alongside class 43 NBL Warships and of course were also based at Cardiff so there is every reason to suggest the relatively short leg in between saw some Hymek activity as Cardiff crews (at least) signed both road and traction.

[MidlandRed]

I found a couple of photos of interest at Shrewsbury in this context - firstly D7026 (but not on a train and with blank headcode - also 1962 and new) - was this route learning or come off a train to be replaced by another loco? 

 

D1586 (one of the first 86A Brush Type 4s - new May 64), more or less new on a 1Mxx train - could this be a Cardiff to Manchester? It’s unlikely to be a NW to Paddington via Birmingham Snow Hill with an 86A (rather than 2B or 81A) Brush Type 4. So another possible class in the mix??!! 
 

Im pretty sure the Hymeks were replaced on the Hereford/ Worcester/Paddington services around 1967 by class 43 Warships and continued until they were withdrawn (@Phil Bullock will have more detail) but as @The Stationmaster has said, the SW services to Manchester were the source of Warships at Crewe (until post 1967 when class 43s from Worcester got there on freight workings via/from the West Midlands. 
 

It seems the Hymek operation on the N and W line passenger services was relatively short lived.
 

The first Hymeks at Newton Abbott were generally reallocations from BR in 6/63, although one was allocated from new in 3/63 (all in the D707x series). I wonder if there was some thought of of even use on SW/NW workings? 

Edited May 7, 2022 by MidlandRed

[john new]

On 06/05/2022 at 01:17, The Johnster said:

They were certainly used on the Portsmouths, but I can't remember seeing them on the Crewes.  They appeared at Hereford, of course, on Paddington services via Worcester, which may account for the photos you saw?  The Cardiff-Crewe service started when the Cardiff/Bristol-Liverpool/Manchester trains were diverted to run via BNS, which was IIRC 1969 but may have been '70.  The stock used was initially Class 120 dmus, which had trouble timing the trains and were boosted by the addition of a 122 bubble car, locked out of use  but frequented by traincrews travelling home 'on the cushions' on the route.  The various configurations of seating benches made into beds, card school tables, and so on would have made an interesting study...

 

The 120/122 combos were replaced by class 25s and 5 coach mk1 sets, an improvement in comfort but the buffet service was lost.  The service was getting a bit of a reputation as a poor relation, and complaints were rife.  5 were too much for the 25s to keep time with (Hymeks would have played with the load, but they'd been withdrawn), and the load was reduced to 4.  Even this did not solve the problems; because of the connection from the WCML, Liverpool, and Manchester at Crewe and their propensity for late running, especially the up WCML trains, the Cardiffs often had time to make up to make connections at Cardfiff for Swansea and points west, and the 25s simply did not have enough in reserve to do this.  The last service of the day was particularly prone, and could mean considerable delay to the last down Paddington-Swansea (he booked connection which had to be held for it), and it's connections further west...

 

Eventually the 25s were replaced by 33s, which enabled eth and had a bit more poke in them but the load was reduced to 3 mk1s.  33s also appeared on Cardiff-Portsmouths, which they shared with 31s, and Cardiff-West Wales services.  The 33s were in turn replaced by eth fitted 37/4s, which were the locos that really ended the decades of struggling on this route, abeit making a bit of noise in doing so!  The restoration of through Cardiff-Manchester/Liverpool services via the North to West route co-incided with the 153 dmus' coming into service.

Also confirming they worked through to Portsmouth via Salisbury & Southampton (remember at least one ride behind one of them) and down the SW mainline, presumably via Reading & Basingstoke (regularly seen at Shawford & Winchester). All pre summer 1972 when I left the area, but all probably post the steam era though.