1960s CLASS 35 HYMEK WORKINGS

[Phil Bullock]

32 minutes ago, MidlandRed said:

I found a couple of photos of interest at Shrewsbury in this context - firstly D7026 (but not on a train and with blank headcode - also 1962 and new) - was this route learning or come off a train to be replaced by another loco? 

 

D1586 (one of the first 86A Brush Type 4s), more or less new on a 1Mxx train - could this be a Cardiff to Manchester? It’s unlikely to be a NW to Paddington via Birmingham Snow Hill with an 86A (rather than 2B or 81A) Brush Type 4. So another possible class in the mix??!! 
 

Im pretty sure the Hymeks were replaced on the Hereford/ Worcester/Paddington services around 1967 by class 43 Warships and continued until they were withdrawn (@Phil Bullock will have more detail) but as @The Stationmaster has said, the SW services to Manchester were the source of Warships at Crewe (until post 1967 when class 43s from Worcester got there on freight workings via/from the West Midlands. 
 

It seems the Hymek operation on the N and W passenger services was relatively short lived. 

Spring 68 was when I first saw a Warship on the Worcester/Hereford to Paddington trains …. They were common but not exclusive  until they finished at the end of September 71. Hymeks and Brush 4s were also used during this period and took over once the Warships finished until replacement power in the shape of Brush 2s materialised. 
 

Have a look at Brian Thomas’s excellent Hymek website for lots of pictures and info on Hymeks at Worcester late 60s/early 70s ….

[paul 27]

Never new class 33 worked to Northwest, is this post 68 steam era,

back to the Hymeks any more information on freight workings

to this area and thanks for all the replys

Edited May 7, 2022 by paul 27

[Fat Controller]

44 minutes ago, paul 27 said:

Never new class 33 worked to Northwest, is this post 68 steam era,

back to the Hymeks any more information on freight workings

to this area and thanks for all the replys

Class 33 worked Cardiff> Shrewsbury> Crewe/ Manchester/ North Wales trains in the early- mid 1980s; also working at least as far as Carmarthen. 

[The Johnster]

5 hours ago, Phil Bullock said:

 

D1586 (one of the first 86A Brush Type 4s), more or less new on a 1Mxx train - could this be a Cardiff to Manchester

 

Or a Liverpool, yes.  The Cardiff-Manchester/Liverpools and the Bristol/Plymouth-Manchester/Liverpools tended to run one after each other between Newport and Crewe, so that each train provided a connecting service to the one behind for Manchester or Liverpool in one direction and Cardiff or Bristol/Plymouth in the other.  Before Pontypool Road shed closed, it was the usual engine changeover point, about half way between Plymouth and Manchester/Liverpool, but the Cardiff-PPRD part was often worked by a 5101 or 56xx.  Dieselisation enabled through working, hence the appearance of D1586 at Salop.  Loco change would have been at Crewe once the 25kv was up and running, but in 1962 quite possible for the Canton loco to work through.

 

I'd forgotten about the Class 123 4-car Swindon inter-city sets on the Cardiff-Crewes in the 70s.  These trains were used when they were first introduced on Cardiff-Portsmouth and a newly introduced but quite short-lived Cardiff-Derby via the Lickey service, running as 8-car sets with a buffet.

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

20 hours ago, MidlandRed said:

I found a couple of photos of interest at Shrewsbury in this context - firstly D7026 (but not on a train and with blank headcode - also 1962 and new) - was this route learning or come off a train to be replaced by another loco? 

 

D1586 (one of the first 86A Brush Type 4s - new May 64), more or less new on a 1Mxx train - could this be a Cardiff to Manchester? It’s unlikely to be a NW to Paddington via Birmingham Snow Hill with an 86A (rather than 2B or 81A) Brush Type 4. So another possible class in the mix??!! 
 

Im pretty sure the Hymeks were replaced on the Hereford/ Worcester/Paddington services around 1967 by class 43 Warships and continued until they were withdrawn (@Phil Bullock will have more detail) but as @The Stationmaster has said, the SW services to Manchester were the source of Warships at Crewe (until post 1967 when class 43s from Worcester got there on freight workings via/from the West Midlands. 
 

It seems the Hymek operation on the N and W line passenger services was relatively short lived.
 

The first Hymeks at Newton Abbott were generally reallocations from BR in 6/63, although one was allocated from new in 3/63 (all in the D707x series). I wonder if there was some thought of of even use on SW/NW workings? 

WR Brush Type 4s (as they were at that time) were almost entirely on cyclic diagrams so in theory  a  86A (Canton by May 1964) loco at Salop could have been on a Paddington train but it just easily might not have been.  Any working off the WR in those days would in many cases have come straight back from wherever they had gone to but diagram unscrambling wouldn't have matched a January Regional boundary change such as the one in 1963 so the date of the photo might have a bearing.

 

The blank headcode Hymek might mean nothing more than a problem with the headcode blinds or someone who couldn't be bothered to change them although Hymels generally tended to show a headcode of some sort (often reliably) in their early days.  So the identity of the train could be anything - the stock would be the best guide to establishing if it was training job.  Most Hymek training I know anything about was based on the use of Tutor Drivers on booked trains for the practical/handling aspect although obviously they too would have had to be trained before they could train anyone else.

 

What is clearly needed is a check on the dates of the service revisions on the North & West as that would it turn have had an impact on the loco workings.  The dieselisation of the West of England - NW service seems to have been based on what amounted to a direct lift of the previous steam working - i.e. through engine/loco from Newton Abbot to Salop involving Newton and Salop crews only plus when the diesels took over extending the loco through to Crewe.  So no other depots needed to do any training  of any sort for that change.  If any trains had changed engines intermediately in the steam period they might have continued to do so for a while - again to avoid training.  The only real changes which would then have come would have been either when the services were re-routed via Birmingham or when the WR ceased to operate double home turns for traincrew (which was definitely several years after the arrival of mainline diesels and which led to a need for lots of additional training on some routes).

[stovepipe]

On 07/05/2022 at 14:53, The Stationmaster said:

Although that is a train, arriving at Bristol, which would in any case have been worked by a 'Warship'.  is there a suggestion that Hymeks replaced or supplemented 'Warships' on the WofE-NW services?

 

The photo isn't the point of interest, it was the comment beneath:

 

"All North to West expresses from Bristol were steam hauled until January 1962, when Hymeks took over 1M96. By the Summer Service 1962, all were rostered for Warships. Summer Saturday extras and frequent Warship failures and non-availability resulted in frequent steam substitutions."

[MidlandRed]

28 minutes ago, stovepipe said:

 

The photo isn't the point of interest, it was the comment beneath:

 

"All North to West expresses from Bristol were steam hauled until January 1962, when Hymeks took over 1M96. By the Summer Service 1962, all were rostered for Warships. Summer Saturday extras and frequent Warship failures and non-availability resulted in frequent steam substitutions."

D1586 virtually new at Shrewsbury in mid 1964 is on 1M95. 
 

It post dates the transfer of the Midlands area of WR to the LMR.

 

@The Stationmaster the use of diesels on steam rosters in that period probably accounts for the large over-estimating of the required diesel loco fleet on all regions (the fleet size seems to have been fixed centrally as a yardstick in 1963/4). 

Edited May 8, 2022 by MidlandRed

[The Stationmaster]

Just now, stovepipe said:

 

The photo isn't the point of interest, it was the comment beneath:

 

"All North to West expresses from Bristol were steam hauled until January 1962, when Hymeks took over 1M96. By the Summer Service 1962, all were rostered for Warships. Summer Saturday extras and frequent Warship failures and non-availability resulted in frequent steam substitutions."

Very odd.  That would have required NewtonAbbot (and/or another West of England depot) to be trained on Hymeks unless there was a major change of diagrams taking work away from Newton.  It also disagrees considerably with John Jennison's researchs for 'The Book oF The Warships'  which notes the introduction of a 'Warship' to a Newton Abbot double home turn from 5 March 1962 (which included 1M96) while one was loaned to Crewe North for training (I'm not sure if this was footplate or artisan training) the following month.   From the introduction of the 1962 Summer timetable on 18 June the whole of the West of England - North West route Class 1 workings were handed over to 'Warships ' which remained the traction until displaced by Brush Type 4s in (officially) 1964.  If Hymeks had taken over at any time during that changeover period it would have involved a massive waste of valuable training time which almost certainly wouldn't have allowed the full timetabling of Warships by the end of May as men would have to do their basic diesel training plus a subsequent week (at least) of conversion training. At that time I'm fairly sure that the 'Warship' was the WR 'basic diesel' for conversion training so why learn a 'Warship' then do a Hymek comversion for a service which in any case was going to be worked by 'Warships'? 

 

Also in that 1962 change these trains were not only seriously accelerated but the working of Manchester and Liverpool portions was also rationalised - presumably to cut out remarshalling but timetable was reorganised to rationalise.  and steam engines were substituted for any failures on the part of the Warships,

 

This that caption comment is along way wide of the reality of what took place on the West of England - North West route as far as Hymeks were concerned.

[MidlandRed]

And Hymeks were not allocated to 83A (Newton Abbott) until March 1963. However they were at 82A (Bristol Bath Road) in early 1962 along with 86A (Cardiff Canton). 

[stovepipe]

 

I must confess to be being somewhat baffled by this thread's recent direction.

 

A review of some contemporary reports (Modern Railways 1962) reveals that:

 

March Issue
Jan 8 Hymek Canton training commences with

09.40 Cardiff - Plymouth to Bristol
11.28 Plymouth - Cardiff from Bristol

The first Type 3 duties ranging the whole of the North and West have been introduced, following the debut of this class on the 4.50 pm from Penzance to Manchester as far as Hereford, and the 12.45 am Manchester - Penzance back from there.
From Jan 22 a Type 3 was rostered between Bristol and Shrewsbury to the 10.30 am Penzance - Manchester and 7.20 pm return.

Another Type 3 duty now extends as far as Leicester Central on the 9.50 pm (10.25 SO) Swindon - York, and the 10.22 pm York - Bristol back as 2.11 am from Leicester, with a Swindon crewe in charge.

April Issue
Type 3 diagrammed workings
11.25 am Taunton - Minehead, and 1.20 pm return
16.25 am Taunton - Minehead, and 6.00 pm return from 19 Feb
Two daily workigns to Weymouth, on the Kensington Milk, and the Milford Haven parcels

May Issue
South Wales - Paddington expresses commence with Hymeks from early March.
Newton Abbot - Shrewsbury through working dieselised with Warships from March 5, the 9.10 am Liverpool LS - Plymouth and 8am return

June Issue
Further South Wales - Paddington expresses taken over.
During April Canton's Hymek Type 3s began work over the North and West route; they were seen on 11.50 am Swansea - Manchester, and 2.50 pm Liverpool - Cardiff. Normal engine change location is Shrewsbury but moved to Hereford between March 11 and April 9 due to engineering work at Castle Foregate in Shrewsbury.

July Issue
Hymek workings over Minehead branch ceased at the end of April.

August issue
Warship type 4s took over several more expresses on the North and West route with the beginning of the summer timetable. Additional train covered are
7.55 am, 11 am, 12 noon, and 4.50pm from Penzance to the North West, and 8 am Plymouth - Liverpool, 8.40 am Cardiff - Manchester (from Pontypool Rd), the 12.30 and 9.05 am Liverpool - Penzance, and the 3.05 and 7.20 pm from Manchester
to South Devon and Cornwall.

Sept Issue
Hymeks going to Gloucester for training for use on Cardiff - Gloucester in the coming Winter timetable.
All regular weekday Class A trains on the North and West route are now Warship hauled between Crewe and Bristol. No longer any engine changes at Shrewsbury, however due to 'defections from duty' there are many more examples of WR steam locos at Crewe than in previous years.

 

Much of the foregoing supports the comment on the photograph in relation to northbound from Bristol. (I'm not sure why anyone would think it referred to southbound workings).

 

So in summary, Hymeks for a brief period in 1962 (approximately January to June), worked expresses from Bristol, Cardiff and Swansea to the North-West, with a planned engine change at Shrewsbury (or less commonly Hereford), until the Warships took over from new timetable commencing 18 June 1962. From then on the loco worked through to Crewe, as the Shrewsbury engine change had been dispensed with. All three of the photos linked in this thread fit with the narrative recorded in 1962.

 

[The Stationmaster]

13 hours ago, stovepipe said:

 

 

Much of the foregoing supports the comment on the photograph in relation to northbound from Bristol. (I'm not sure why anyone would think it referred to southbound workings).

 

 

 

Because the photo accompanying the comment showed a southbound train arriving at Bristol.

 

Quote

A review of some contemporary reports (Modern Railways 1962) reveals that:

 

March Issue
Jan 8 Hymek Canton training commences with

09.40 Cardiff - Plymouth to Bristol
11.28 Plymouth - Cardiff from Bristol

The first Type 3 duties ranging the whole of the North and West have been introduced, following the debut of this class on the 4.50 pm from Penzance to Manchester as far as Hereford, and the 12.45 am Manchester - Penzance back from there.
From Jan 22 a Type 3 was rostered between Bristol and Shrewsbury to the 10.30 am Penzance - Manchester and 7.20 pm return.

 

June Issue
Further South Wales - Paddington expresses taken over.
During April Canton's Hymek Type 3s began work over the North and West route; they were seen on 11.50 am Swansea - Manchester, and 2.50 pm Liverpool - Cardiff. Normal engine change location is Shrewsbury but moved to Hereford between March 11 and April 9 due to engineering work at Castle Foregate in Shrewsbury.

 

The two dated items appear contradictory on first looking at them but the June issue comment is the important where it states that 'During April Canton's Hymek Type 3s began work over the North and West route, they were seen on (trains to/from South Wales) ... etc.

 

So the earlier trains listed in the March issue seem more then likely to have been training turns, albeit on booked trains.  Initially involving, probably, Bath Road (and possibly Hereford) men and then, from 22 January, Hereford men training north thereof to Salop.  Canton only had a couple of Hymeks until early April after which it received a. steady stream of deliveries hence the takeover of (some?) South Wales route trains by Hymeks from April.  By which time 'Warships' had already begun to takeover West of England - North West  trains

 

The big question - as it initially probably involved training turns - is the extent to which the trains were regularly diesel hauled?  Although Bath Road had received 5 Hymeks in December 1961 followed by 3 more in january 1962 and another 4 in February it is logical that their use would spread to more links with a need to train Drivers on them.  Equally delivery of the final 'Warships' from NBL was at an agonisingly slow pace - sliding back to only one a month from February 1962 with the final loco not arriving until June that year (only 7 were delivered in 1962) which in turn must have delayed deployment of 'Warships' on the West of England - North West trains creating a stop gap that was in part filled by the use of Hymeks combined with  wider training on that type which was needed anyway.

 

So more Hymeks on that West of England - NW route, albeit only for a limited period, than I recalled (it is 60 years since I first read those issues of 'Modern Railways'!) but as it happens rather handy - with a tiny bit of era stretching - for my modelling interests if those of no one else.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 9, 2022 by The Stationmaster

[stovepipe]

I wondered about the use of the word 'began' which didn't seem to be consistent with that reported previously. Perhaps the intended workings from January didn't materialise as fulfilled rosters until April. Nevertheless the main point - that there was a short period of use on the N&W in 1962 - is at least documented in print, alongside a small handful of photographs.

 

On the loco allocation, there's a bit of too and fro in the reportage, with allocation to Canton initially stated, and then corrected as all being at Bath Road, and then three allocated at Westbury, but later changed to outstationed from Bristol.

 

BR Database has 16 Hymeks delivered by the end of 1961, and 27 before April 1962.

[The Stationmaster]

19 hours ago, stovepipe said:

I wondered about the use of the word 'began' which didn't seem to be consistent with that reported previously. Perhaps the intended workings from January didn't materialise as fulfilled rosters until April. Nevertheless the main point - that there was a short period of use on the N&W in 1962 - is at least documented in print, alongside a small handful of photographs.

 

On the loco allocation, there's a bit of too and fro in the reportage, with allocation to Canton initially stated, and then corrected as all being at Bath Road, and then three allocated at Westbury, but later changed to outstationed from Bristol.

 

BR Database has 16 Hymeks delivered by the end of 1961, and 27 before April 1962.

I still suspect that the January ones were probably training turns although they were obviously on booked trains (that was how the handling training on Hymeks was carried out).  So as I said they might not always have been covered by a diesel if,  for example,  a Hymek wasn't available or - more likely - a tutor Driver wasn't available for some reason.

 

April would fairly certainly have been a permanent diagram allocation as by then sufficient men should have been trained to sustain booked Hymek working

[brainh]

Reading this topic has put me in full reminisce mode so I'm going to stick to Pauls original question, hopefully.

I was lucky !! to attend Rope Lane secondary school from summer 1964 to summer 1969 and from the playground, fields and a few of the classrooms we had a clear view of the Crewe - Shrewsbury line over the adjacent fields. Also visited the line on occasions prior to and after these times. 

Neither myself or any of my mates saw a Hymek on a passenger train, not to say it never happened.  The 1st Hymek seen by us  was in 1965 on a freight train. From 1966 - 1970 however they were regular visitors having a complete monopoly of the Barry Dock banana trains and it was common to see 2 - 4 of them on any day the traffic ran. Most of them seen returning LE after a short period of time.  As steam was still active around the Crewe - Shrewsbury area until 1967 the answer is yes. 

[paul 27]

1 hour ago, brainh said:

Reading this topic has put me in full reminisce mode so I'm going to stick to Pauls original question, hopefully.

I was lucky !! to attend Rope Lane secondary school from summer 1964 to summer 1969 and from the playground, fields and a few of the classrooms we had a clear view of the Crewe - Shrewsbury line over the adjacent fields. Also visited the line on occasions prior to and after these times. 

Neither myself or any of my mates saw a Hymek on a passenger train, not to say it never happened.  The 1st Hymek seen by us  was in 1965 on a freight train. From 1966 - 1970 however they were regular visitors having a complete monopoly of the Barry Dock banana trains and it was common to see 2 - 4 of them on any day the traffic ran. Most of them seen returning LE after a short period of time.  As steam was still active around the Crewe - Shrewsbury area until 1967 the answer is yes. 

Thanks thats very interesting that would be a scarce photo to find of

the Banana train, any one else have information on this working

in the steam period.

Edited May 11, 2022 by paul 27

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, paul 27 said:

Thanks thats very interesting that would be a scarce photo to find of

the Banana train, any one else have information on this working

in the steam period.

The only photo I have of a banana train from Barry Docks was a London working earlier in the 1960s and it had an almost new  EE Type 3 which worked the train as far as Swindon.  The steam period working might have been interesting for motive power because when I did Barry shed late in the Summer of 1962 the only tender engine present was a Southall 'Modified Hall' which apparently had worked down on empty vans and was being held there to work back on a banana special.  'Halls' were common on the Barry banana trains to the London area up to around the mid 1960s.

[Phil Bullock]

If you search the Railways in South Wales Facebook group there are photos of Hymeks and also Worcester’s 7920 Coney Hall on banana trains from Barry.  But IIRC as @The Stationmaster says they are London bound….

Edited May 11, 2022 by Phil Bullock

[br2975]

 

Some 'Hymek' workings extracted from Driver's / Guard's journals by the late Rowland Pittard (of Tondu) and passed to me following his death.

 

1965

 

16/1/65 - D7006 – ldsl GL to Eastgate for 2B74 (?) 0804 to Bristol TM, loco to Bath Road

27/1/65 - D7053 - ldsl GL to Eastgate for 2B74 (?) 0804 to Bristol TM, loco to Bath Road

28/1/65 - D7055 - ldsl GL to Eastgate for 2B74 (?) 0804 to Bristol TM, loco to Bath Road

10/2/65 - D7082 – 1230 freight Gloster – Newtown Goods (may have been piloting steam 45369, notes unclear), presume loco returned on 1540 return train

11/2/65 – D7082 similar to previous but at 1100 with steam 92125 or 92128 involved

12/2/65 – D7082 again but alone, reld Woster crew, 1305 to Pengam, loco to Canton

13/2/65 – D7082 again with 92247 in tow. To Pengam and onto canton, return to Glos at 1555

3/4/65 – D7046 – freight between Swindon – Gloster (32 vehicles) 1845-2045

7/4/65 – D7066 – freight between Gloster-Woster 1345-1435

8/4/65 – D7066 – freight between Gloster-Woster 1400-1510

9/4/65 – D7039 – ditto 1330-1435 reld by Woster crew

10/4/65 – D7066 – ditto 1330-1439 41 vehicles

10/4/65 – D7084 – freight Woster-Gloster 1805-1915 35 vehicles

12/4/65 – D7005 – ldsl GL-Chelt, ECS Glos, 2H81 1728 Cheltenham, 2B29 1925 to Glos Eastgate

13/4/65 – D7019  - ldsl GL-Chelt, ECS Glos, 2H81 1728 Cheltenham, 2B29 1925 to Glos Eastgate (2H81 = 5=162 / 2B29 = 6=174)

14/4/65 – D7017 – ldsl GL-Chelt, ECS Glos, 2H81 1728 Cheltenham, 2B29 1925 to Glos Eastgate

17/4/65 – D7051 – ldsl GL-Chelt, ECS Glos, 2H81 1728 Cheltenham, 2B29 1925 to Glos Eastgate

24/4/65 – D7099 – ldsl GL to Carr Sdg, 0715 Chelt, 0745 Chelt-Bristol TM, ldsl Bath Road

4/5/65 – D7075 – 1630 Gloster-Kemble – Swindon Loco Yard and return

5/5/65 – D7075 – 1617 Gloster –Kemble - Swindon Loco Yard and return

6/5/65 – D7075 – 1630 Gloster –Kemble - Swindon Loco Yard and return

2/11/65 – D7066 ldsl off Reading depot, 1200 Reading – Paddington (note says all stations Southall-Ealing-Acton_Padd)

3/12/65 – D7079 0845 Cardiff – Cheltenham

.

A few other workings of interest include;

.

2/5/69 – D7082 4V58 Spring Vale – Waterston

22/9/69 – D7076 6M56 Canton – Calvert

28/10/69 – D7095 6Z37 1900 Cadoxton Low Level – Carlisle (guard off at Hereford)

30/10/69 – D7095 7M71 2320 Pengam – Soho (guard off at Worcester)

31/10/69 – D7063 6Z36 2305 Tidal – Bovey Tracey

10/11/69 – D7093 8B82 1240 Llanwern – Etruria (guard off at Hereford)

11/11/69 – D7056 6E69 1330 Barry Docks – Temple Mills  (this was working usually in connection with Geest banana boats coming alongside)

12/11/69 – D7068 6E69 1330 Barry Docks – Temple Mills

13/11/69 – D7083 6E69 1330 Barry Docks – Temple Mills

14/11/69 – D7079 & D7075 6E69 1200 Barry Docks – Temple Mills

22/4/70 – D7056 7V22 2330 (previous) Warrington – STJ

17/5/70 – D7090 6Z45 1845 Barry – Carlisle to Gloucester

25/5/70 – D7089 6Z31 1830 Barry Dock – Norwood (ldsl off Canton) - (possibly banana traffic for Lingfield ?)

7/6/70 – D7099 6Z30 1745 Barry Dock – Temple Mills (ldsl off Canton)

 

 

 

Brian R

 

Edited May 12, 2022 by br2975

[MidlandRed]

One area we haven’t covered in this thread is use of Hymeks, certainly to Bescot and beyond to the north, in the era from 1967 at least, onwards.

 

I used to see a late(ish) evening parcels train, 3M02, which travelled north towards Bescot along the Grand Junction at around 2100 - it was sometimes (but not always) hauled by one of the Lickey bankers (D7021-5). I don’t have a WTT but I suspect this train may have originated at Worcester and travelled via Droitwich, Stourbridge J, Old Hill, Smethwick West, Soho, Handsworth, Perry Barr N and arrived at Bescot travelling northbound. I suspect it then went towards Wolverhampton because at that time, trains heading for Bescot or Walsall would probably have gone the other way at Stourbridge J, via Brierley Hill etc and approached facing north east or south east. 
 

How far this train went north I don’t know - possibly Wolverhampton - but equally could have been beyond towards Wellington and Shrewsbury? It’s worth noting that after the arrival of the class 43 Warships in the Worcester and W Midlands areas after 1967, a freight/parcels working regularly took them to Crewe. 
 

It would be interesting to know where 3M02 started and finished - I guess it could equally have started at Curzon St (but why a BR Hymek if so?). Another bit of (relatively) useless info, but nonetheless relatively notable, the train was closely followed most days by E3100 (experimental thyristor control loco), on 4S70, a fitted mixed freight (but mostly vans) - this loco was noted at the time in either Modern Railways or Railway Magazine on the same daily roster (must have changed loco at Crewe I guess as the WCML wasn’t energised north of Weaver Junction then). 

[Phil Bullock]

22 minutes ago, MidlandRed said:

One area we haven’t covered in this thread is use of Hymeks, certainly to Bescot and beyond to the north, in the era from 1967 at least, onwards.

 

I used to see a late(ish) evening parcels train, 3M02, which travelled north towards Bescot along the Grand Junction at around 2100 - it was sometimes (but not always) hauled by one of the Lickey bankers (D7021-5). I don’t have a WTT but I suspect this train may have originated at Worcester and travelled via Droitwich, Stourbridge J, Old Hill, Smethwick West, Soho, Handsworth, Perry Barr N and arrived at Bescot travelling northbound. I suspect it then went towards Wolverhampton because at that time, trains heading for Bescot or Walsall would probably have gone the other way at Stourbridge J, via Brierley Hill etc and approached facing north east or south east. 
 

How far this train went north I don’t know - possibly Wolverhampton - but equally could have been beyond towards Wellington and Shrewsbury? It’s worth noting that after the arrival of the class 43 Warships in the Worcester and W Midlands areas after 1967, a freight/parcels working regularly took them to Crewe. 
 

It would be interesting to know where 3M02 started and finished - I guess it could equally have started at Curzon St (but why a BR Hymek if so?). Another bit of (relatively) useless info, but nonetheless relatively notable, the train was closely followed most days by E3100 (experimental thyristor control loco), on 4S70, a fitted mixed freight (but mostly vans) - this loco was noted at the time in either Modern Railways or Railway Magazine on the same daily roster (must have changed loco at Crewe I guess as the WCML wasn’t energised north of Weaver Junction then). 

My understanding of these workings is that there were two northbound  parcels trains from  Worcester…. Although I struggle to equate them to the WTTs I have from 68 to 71. 
 

The Crewe train …. Which is what I think you are describing as routed through Bescot …. was a WR loco as far as Wolverhampton where locos were changed , the WR loco returning on an equivalent southbound working. Don’t recall seeing a sighting of anything other than a Hymek reported on this.

 

The second was 6M20 Worcester to BNS from where the loco ran LD to Proof House Junction where it waited time before returning south on 4V03 to  Bristol via Worcester. There are plenty of recordings of NBL Warships on this turn although a Hymek was also fair game.

 

On 27th April 1970 I logged D7007 and D7011 At Kidderminster on these trains (Worcester City lost 1-0 to Kidderminster Harriers that evening in the second leg of the Worcestershire FA cup that evening but won 3-2 on aggregate) and the sightings of D7021-5 on the Crewe train would certainly tie in with it being the Worcester train as they were always lurking around!

 

3V01/3M01 were generic headcodes for Curzon Street - Worcester and return parcels wokings…. Can’t find 3M02 in WTT but would seem logical for a Worcester to Wolverhampton working.

 

Wonder if Worcester crews worked through to Wolves? Were any crews north of Worcester trained on Hymeks? They did have other turns to the West Midlands including Cardiff to Soho Pool tanks.

 

Cheers 

 

Phil

[br2975]

Boxing Day, 1967 - all was not well in West Wales;

7081 failed at Landore                                                                                                     

7082 failed at Landore                                                                                                   

7087 failed at Landore.                                                                                                 

7089 to work 20:45 Swansea                                                                                          

7093 to work 17:20 Milford Haven, 23:10 Swansea                                                                                               

7095 failed at Carmarthen                                                                                         

7099 to work L/E Landore – Carmarthen

.

However, the following day, 27th. December, 1967 this was the state of play;

Disposition of West Wales Cl.35 locos.

7080 to work 04:12 Carmarthen, 06:50 Lampeter, 20:45 Swansea                      

7081 to work 03:05 Milford Haven                                                                                   

7082 faiIed at Landore                                                                                             

 7084 to work 08:30 Carmarthen P.Way, 19:15 Milford Haven                                                                                                

7087 spare at Landore.                                                                                                   

 7089 repairs at Landore                                                                                              

 7093 to work L/E Landore – Carmarthen, 09:55 Haverfordwest parcels                                                                                              

7095 failed at Carmarthen                                                                                            

7096 spare at Landore                                                                                                    

7099 to work 05:09 Milford Haven, 09:10 Newcastle Emlyn, 15:10 Llandilo Jcn. 17:20 Milford Haven, 23:10 Swansea

.

And, on 28th. December, 1967.......

7074 Landore, failed.                                                                                                 

7075 to work 08:30 Carmarthen, 17:30 Manchester ?                                                        

7080 to work 03:05 Milford Haven                                                                                    

7082 failed, towed Landore - Canton                                                                                       

7084 to work 05:09 Milford Haven, 09:10 Newcastle Emlyn, 15:10 Llandilo Jcn. 17:20 Milford Haven, 23:10 Swansea                                                                               

7087 to work 12:45 Margam 

7096 to work 07:25 Llandilo Jcn. and Milford Haven  

7093 to work 20:45 Swansea

7099 to work 04:12 Milford Haven, 06:50 Lampeter, 19:15 Milford Haven    

.

Then we come to 29th. December, 1967;

 7053 to work 03:05 Milford Haven & 09:55 Haverfordwest parcels                          

7075 to work 12:45 Margam                                                                                                

 7084 to work 08:30 Carmarthen                                                                                            

7092 to work 07:25 Llandilo Junction                                                                                   

7093 04:12 Milford Haven,                                                                                               

06:50 to work Lampeter, 20:45 Swansea                                                                          

7094 to work 19:15 Milford Haven                                                                                              

7096 to work 17:20 Milford Haven                                                                                        

7099 to work 05:09 Milford Haven, 09:10 Newcastle Emlyn, 15:10 Llandilo Jcn. 17:30 Manchester  

.

And finally, 30th. December, 1967;

7051 to work 06:50 Lampeter, 19:15 Milford Haven                                                      

7084 to work 05:09 Milford Haven, 11:20 Green Grove, 20:40 Manchester ?           

7087 spare Landore                                                                                                 

7096 spare at Carmarthen                                                                                                                                                                        

 

 

I was once told that on 12th March 1969 7098 ( 86A ) was working the (Cardiff Docks ? to) Soho Pool tanks when the loco apparently derailed in the Bescot area blocking the Up & Down mainlines, and was dragged onto the depot by D8181 (2E), it is believed the EE type 1 carried on with the job via Soho Road, Tipton and Wednesbury to Bescot.

.

 

Edited May 13, 2022 by br2975

[Phil Bullock]

44 minutes ago, MidlandRed said:

One area we haven’t covered in this thread is use of Hymeks, certainly to Bescot and beyond to the north, in the era from 1967 at least, onwards.

 

I used to see a late(ish) evening parcels train, 3M02, which travelled north towards Bescot along the Grand Junction at around 2100 - it was sometimes (but not always) hauled by one of the Lickey bankers (D7021-5). I don’t have a WTT but I suspect this train may have originated at Worcester and travelled via Droitwich, Stourbridge J, Old Hill, Smethwick West, Soho, Handsworth, Perry Barr N and arrived at Bescot travelling northbound. I suspect it then went towards Wolverhampton because at that time, trains heading for Bescot or Walsall would probably have gone the other way at Stourbridge J, via Brierley Hill etc and approached facing north east or south east. 
 

How far this train went north I don’t know - possibly Wolverhampton - but equally could have been beyond towards Wellington and Shrewsbury? It’s worth noting that after the arrival of the class 43 Warships in the Worcester and W Midlands areas after 1967, a freight/parcels working regularly took them to Crewe. 
 

It would be interesting to know where 3M02 started and finished - I guess it could equally have started at Curzon St (but why a BR Hymek if so?). Another bit of (relatively) useless info, but nonetheless relatively notable, the train was closely followed most days by E3100 (experimental thyristor control loco), on 4S70, a fitted mixed freight (but mostly vans) - this loco was noted at the time in either Modern Railways or Railway Magazine on the same daily roster (must have changed loco at Crewe I guess as the WCML wasn’t energised north of Weaver Junction then). 

You might also like This page which has a photo of D7021 on shed at Bescot wearing 3M02! 

[MidlandRed]

1 hour ago, Phil Bullock said:

You might also like This page which has a photo of D7021 on shed at Bescot wearing 3M02! 

Yes I think the Crewe train must be the one - interesting it changed locos at Wolverhampton. Thanks for the link to those photos - off topic but did you see the pic of D9 at Bescot, on that page in green with a headcode fitted cab front, but standard D1-10 yellow warning panel? 
 

The line entering Soho Pool (a very steep gradient on a curve) had a junction with the southbound Perry Barr junction to Soho junction line just after the A41 Soho Road bridge. The tank trains tended to approach from the Perry Barr direction - so a train originating from the Worcester direction would likely travel via Stourbridge, Brierley Hill, Bescot at that time. There is quite a steep and curved section through Handsworth Park, where many freight trains were banked with class 25s from Bescot in the mid 60s onwards - the trains stopped at the signal just south of the short curved tunnel under Hamstead Road and the Endwood pub, to await the banker - whose presence would be announced by a series of horn signals from the other side of the tunnel! During the late 60s several full 100 T tanks (train hauled by a class 47) became derailed on the super-elevated curve through the park and rolled down the embankment, causing a potential environmental issue with the adjoining lake and wildlife - triggering a fire brigade exercise to contain it. 
 

Regarding the parcels trains, I’ve seen photos of class 128 units with 3V01 (at Worcester) and 3H99 (the photo was post 1963 southbound near West Smethwick, so presumably with a terminal point prior to the WR boundary otherwise it would have been 3V99) (note that H was Gloucester/Worcester Division from WR locations prior to the 1963 boundary change, ex WR Birmingham Division from LMR after!!).

Edited May 13, 2022 by MidlandRed

[AW]

I was sent the following details by the late Ian Pell in 2010 after a discussion in the pub about the evening Hymek parcels workings through Bescot (which I'd often seen in my primary school years, along with the E3100 train mentioned above)...

 

---------------------------------
Below I have shown the WTTs for the period May 1969 – May 1974. Hymek workings were I believe usually confined to the Worcester Shrub Hill – Wolverhampton section of the 4M02 Worcester SH – Shrewsbury working. As you can see this developed out of Manchester Mayfield working of May 1969, which was probably the original Hymek working. It may then have worked the 4V07 as a return. The LD from Shrewsbury is actually the loco attached at Wolverhampton and not the Hymek. (usual BR complicated diagram!). However, it is most probably that the loco did from time to time work through to Shrewsbury , but if it was to pick up the 4V07 there might have been be fuel issues? 4M05 is shown as I do believe Hymeks were used on this diagram when nothing else was available. There are stories of Hymeks being changed at Walsall, and of working through on the South Staffs line, but as yet no actual evidence to back these stories up. I wait in hope, rather than expectation! Certainly, Hymeks were to be seen at Dudley, on freights to Bescot Yard from the Worcester area. Any sightings, photos greatly appreciated!
---------------------------------
5 May 1969-3 May 1970

4M00 23.40 SX Pcls Bristol – Manchester Mayfield, certainly crew change, possibly loco change at Bescot 03.21. Usually via Galton Jc, Soho loop 

4M02 18.38 SX Pcls Worcester Shrub Hill - Manchester Mayfield,  loco change at Wolverhampton HL to electric. Bescot pass 20.39, W'ton a.20.53 d.21.08.  Usually via Galton Jc, Soho loop.

4V07 02.15 SX Pcls Crewe to Gloucester, loco change at Wolverhampton HL from electric.  Bescot pass 03.24, usually via Galton Jc, Soho loop.

4M05 21.20 SX Pcls Worcester Shrub Hill – Derby via South Staffs line

There were also Pcls workings between Curzon St & Manchester Mayfield (4H09) direct & return (4G04).
---------------------------------
4 May 1970- 2 May 1971 

4M00  00.05 MX Pcls Bristol to Manchester Mayfield , 03.26d Bescot, crew change, possible loco change to another diesel. Usually via Galton Jc, Soho loop.

4M02  18.38 SX Pcls Worcester Shrub Hill - Shrewsbury,  loco change at Wolverhampton HL . Bescot pass 19.51, W'ton a.20.01.  Usually via Galton Jc, Soho loop.

0M02 20.02 SX LD Bescot HS to Wolverhampton HL to work 4M02 to Shrewsbury.

4V07  02.15 Pcls Crewe to Bristol MX, loco change at Wolverhampton from electric. Bescot pass 03.24. 

0Z00  23.44 LD  Shrewsbury to Bescot HS, after working 18.38 Pcls from Worcester Shrub Hill

4M05 21.20 SX Pcls Worcester Shrub Hill – Derby via South Staffs line
---------------------------------
3 May 1971- 30 April 72 

4M00  00.35 Pcls Gloucester Easgate - Manchester Mayfield MX, via Galton Jc, Soho loop.

4M02  18.45 Pcls Worcester Shrub Hill - Shrewsbury SX, via Galton Jc, Soho loop.

4M05  21.27 Pcls Worcester Shrub Hill - Derby MX, via South Staffs

4V07  02.15 Pcls Crewe to Bristol  MX, via Galton Jc, Soho loop.
---------------------------------
1 May 1972- 6 May 1973 and 7 May 1973 – 5 May 1974

No 4M02, others still timetabled.

 

The above indicates the movements which possibly used a Hymek in the late 60's-early 70's for Pcls traffic.  I was speaking to someone yesterday and I may have exciting news of a Hymek photographed on the South Staffs, in colour, in the early 70's.  I'll keep you posted.

---------------------------------
 

Incidentally Ian did later send me a pic of a Hymek on the Cardiff - Soho Pool taken near Great Bridge.

 

[Phil Bullock]

24 minutes ago, AW said:

I was sent the following details by the late Ian Pell in 2010 after a discussion in the pub about the evening Hymek parcels workings through Bescot (which I'd often seen in my primary school years, along with the E3100 train mentioned above)...

 

---------------------------------
Below I have shown the WTTs for the period May 1969 – May 1974. Hymek workings were I believe usually confined to the Worcester Shrub Hill – Wolverhampton section of the 4M02 Worcester SH – Shrewsbury working. As you can see this developed out of Manchester Mayfield working of May 1969, which was probably the original Hymek working. It may then have worked the 4V07 as a return. The LD from Shrewsbury is actually the loco attached at Wolverhampton and not the Hymek. (usual BR complicated diagram!). However, it is most probably that the loco did from time to time work through to Shrewsbury , but if it was to pick up the 4V07 there might have been be fuel issues? 4M05 is shown as I do believe Hymeks were used on this diagram when nothing else was available. There are stories of Hymeks being changed at Walsall, and of working through on the South Staffs line, but as yet no actual evidence to back these stories up. I wait in hope, rather than expectation! Certainly, Hymeks were to be seen at Dudley, on freights to Bescot Yard from the Worcester area. Any sightings, photos greatly appreciated!
---------------------------------
5 May 1969-3 May 1970

4M00 23.40 SX Pcls Bristol – Manchester Mayfield, certainly crew change, possibly loco change at Bescot 03.21. Usually via Galton Jc, Soho loop 

4M02 18.38 SX Pcls Worcester Shrub Hill - Manchester Mayfield,  loco change at Wolverhampton HL to electric. Bescot pass 20.39, W'ton a.20.53 d.21.08.  Usually via Galton Jc, Soho loop.

4V07 02.15 SX Pcls Crewe to Gloucester, loco change at Wolverhampton HL from electric.  Bescot pass 03.24, usually via Galton Jc, Soho loop.

4M05 21.20 SX Pcls Worcester Shrub Hill – Derby via South Staffs line

There were also Pcls workings between Curzon St & Manchester Mayfield (4H09) direct & return (4G04).
---------------------------------
4 May 1970- 2 May 1971 

4M00  00.05 MX Pcls Bristol to Manchester Mayfield , 03.26d Bescot, crew change, possible loco change to another diesel. Usually via Galton Jc, Soho loop.

4M02  18.38 SX Pcls Worcester Shrub Hill - Shrewsbury,  loco change at Wolverhampton HL . Bescot pass 19.51, W'ton a.20.01.  Usually via Galton Jc, Soho loop.

0M02 20.02 SX LD Bescot HS to Wolverhampton HL to work 4M02 to Shrewsbury.

4V07  02.15 Pcls Crewe to Bristol MX, loco change at Wolverhampton from electric. Bescot pass 03.24. 

0Z00  23.44 LD  Shrewsbury to Bescot HS, after working 18.38 Pcls from Worcester Shrub Hill

4M05 21.20 SX Pcls Worcester Shrub Hill – Derby via South Staffs line
---------------------------------
3 May 1971- 30 April 72 

4M00  00.35 Pcls Gloucester Easgate - Manchester Mayfield MX, via Galton Jc, Soho loop.

4M02  18.45 Pcls Worcester Shrub Hill - Shrewsbury SX, via Galton Jc, Soho loop.

4M05  21.27 Pcls Worcester Shrub Hill - Derby MX, via South Staffs

4V07  02.15 Pcls Crewe to Bristol  MX, via Galton Jc, Soho loop.
---------------------------------
1 May 1972- 6 May 1973 and 7 May 1973 – 5 May 1974

No 4M02, others still timetabled.

 

The above indicates the movements which possibly used a Hymek in the late 60's-early 70's for Pcls traffic.  I was speaking to someone yesterday and I may have exciting news of a Hymek photographed on the South Staffs, in colour, in the early 70's.  I'll keep you posted.

---------------------------------
 

Incidentally Ian did later send me a pic of a Hymek on the Cardiff - Soho Pool taken near Great Bridge.

 

Have a photo of a pair of Hymeks on the Soho Pool tanks at Norton Junction (Worcester) Can’t post here as copyright but PM me if you would like to see it.