Shunters moving from one location to another in BR days

[D6775]

Not BR days but I did manage to get a pair of 09's to move one night a fair distance a good few years ago, granted it was a little easier with them being 25mph. 09201 went from Knottingley to Peak Forest and 09106 went from Trafford Park to Knottingley one night swapping crew's at Sheffield. I still have the TRUST print outs somewhere. I wish I had gone out to photograph them at Sheffield in the early hours but I had to drive a van Doncaster - Wellingborough - Glasgow that day. 

[TheSignalEngineer]

On 11/05/2022 at 16:38, The Stationmaster said:

SE - have you got any references for that please?   I wonder if it only applied to steam brake only only tank engines?   The running time, end-to-end, including the two intermediate station stops on our branch was, and still is 12 minutes for the 5 mile length of the branch  which equates to 25mph before taking into account the intermediate station dwell times.  The most common steam power on the branch 'internal' passenger trains were, in later steam years, 57XX and 94XX and like their diesel successors they would in places have been hitting well over 40 mph in order to keep time.

Sorry, not quite clear in what I was referring to. The speeds were for tank locos running light rather than hauling trains. This is what was I was thinking of, taken from the 1959 WTT for Gloucester & Worcester Districts.

 

When hauling trains freight tank locos were subject to the normal speeds for the line plus those for crossovers etc, subject to any lower figure specified for a class at particular locations in the local restrictions such as some moves where the 94xx tanks were permitted at "Dead slow speed".

[TheSignalEngineer]

On 11/05/2022 at 14:01, Steamport Southport said:

Those Jinties and 0-6-0PTs that were passed for 60 MPH you mean?

 

They weren't classed as freight tanks despite the F rating. The clue is the steam heat and vacuum brakes. The wheels were also balanced for mainline running.

See my post above clarifying that the 20mph referred to running light engine. Tanks classified as Passenger or MT were allowed 45mph running light.

Edited May 12, 2022 by TheSignalEngineer

[The Johnster]

2 hours ago, roythebus1 said:

Maybe freight tank locos were restricted to 20 mph for the reason they only had a steam brake. Vacuum (or air) fitted locos could run at higher speeds making use of the additional brake power provided by the fitted head on the train. Anyway, the speed of a train was usually determined by the lowest speed vehicle in the train and other factors we've discussed elsewhere.

I think you are confusing train speeds  with the speeds a loco could run at.  Assuming that the line speed allows it, a fully or part fitted freight train can run at the speed of the slowest vehicle; fully fitted express freight with 10' or higher wheelbase wagons ran up to 60mph (and by anecdotalal evidince higher on the ECML fish trains), fast enough for the guards to marshall the two vehicles they were allowed with working vacuum brakes behind the brake vans to steady the ride.  Of course the loco had to be vacuum (or air) fitted.  At the other end of the food chain, completely unfitted goods and mineral trains, which were allowed to run with their 'instanter' couplings in the 'long' position to assist shunting, were restricted to 25mph and usually ran slower than that.  This was irrespective of whether the loco was provided with vacuum brakes or not; if they were the hoses were not connected so the vacuum brake was irrelevant in this case.

 

On top of that, there were speed restrictions applied to light engine movements, because of the lack of braking power of a single locomotive.  There were restrictions for light engines and for engines hauling one, or two,  vacuum/air fitted vehicles. again assuming that the line speed required the restriction to be imposed. 

 

Train timings between signal boxes or timing points were calculated on the expected speed of the train at it's maximum permitted load, with allowance for smooth braking within the distances dictated by the sighing of the signals, and also taking into account rising or falling gradients.  So, a class K part-fitted through freight, equivalent to a class 8 in later days, would be timed in the WTT to run at a maximum of 35mph.  But the speed the train is allowed to run at is determined by the guard, who writes it on the driver's load slip which he signs, and a part-fitted train of bogie bolster Ds can be 'legally' allowed to run at up to 60mph.  The driver, the ultimate arbiter, will not do this unless he is running late and is certain of a clear road ahead in which he can control the train to stop at a home signal having passed a distant at 'on', and if he doesn't do this with due regard to rail conditions, he's courting disaster and will be held accountable.  Drivers are cautious creatures by nature, and want to keep clean records, so drive accordingly,  Mostly.

 

So, as a general principle, an unfitted locomotive will only be used on a fully unfitted loose coupled train anyway, though in some circumstances if the load is light enough and the brake force available from just the locomotive is sufficient, it might run class as a part-fitted train, and at the lowest maximum wagon speed permitted in the train; I refer you back to the bogie bolster Ds, but the instanters have to be in the 'short' position.  Most unfitted freight tender locomotives have driving wheels of about the 4'7" ballpark, and some unfitted tank locos have them at around the 4' ballpark, so both are easily capable of over 20mph but 60, a reasonable top speed for a 28xx or Stanier 8F (and even a Robinson 04 can probably manage 45 or so before it shakes itself to pieces), is probably pushing things a bit for the smaller wheeled tank engines. 

 

A word about loads.  The load of a given train worked by a given class of locomotive is determined by the power of the locomotive and the 'ruling' (steepest) gradient of the route.  The timing, as we've seen, depends on the class of the train and the ability of the loco to stop it (any fool can go fast, stopping is what sorts the men from the boys, and in extreme cases the quick and the dead).  Where unfitted loads were sufficient to prevent the loco from keeping control on downhill gradients, the trains were stopped at the top and hand brake pinned down until sufficient had been pinned for the loco to have to pull the train down the hill with steam on, but under control.  At the bottom, you had to stop again to pick the brakes up and put the levers back in the rack.  This meant that, in the South Wales Valleys (where a lot of this 'incline working' took place), one might see very small engines handling very heavy unbraked loads down inclines; a 57xx with 6 or 7 hundred tons of coal behind it was not uncommon.  And things didn't always go to plan, as the heap of broken wagonry at the bottom of such inclines and at the end of sand drags testified...

 

On top of that there are local instructions, shown in the relevant Sectional Appendixes, that include further specific speed and load limits, sometimes applied to individual classes of engines within the same power band, and driving wheel diameter is a factor here.

[The Stationmaster]

Johnster don't forget that the idea of publishing maximum permitted speeds for freight trains was a fairly late in the day idea for some railways - more a late 1960s idea than anything previously where the only limits which existed were those applied to various freight vehicles.

 

The WTT sectional running times reflect, still, in any case the average speed for the section concerned and even then might not be 100% accurate (at one time HSTs timed to average just shy of 132mph over one section on the WR where the line speed, and the maximum permitted speed for the train, were both 125mph).   So as averages the speeds required to achieve that average would normally be higher in some places in that section than the average speed.

 

In later years WRT freight train running times were greatly refined to reflect both maximum permitted speed and the  trailing load (the latter being catered for by three bands with that permitted speed so hence three different running times for trains of exactly the same Class dependent on the planned trailing load.  Other Regions used their own methods for freight timing, in some cases far less sophisticated than the WR's method while in one case they were much more sophisticated as they used the planned tonnage instead of grouping it into bands (which meant a heck of a lot more work at the planning stage).

[bécasse]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

Johnster don't forget that the idea of publishing maximum permitted speeds for freight trains was a fairly late in the day idea for some railways - more a late 1960s idea than anything previously where the only limits which existed were those applied to various freight vehicles.

One suspects that it started to become an issue when bonuses were introduced for freight train working - in the previous decade?

 

It is, perhaps, also worth remembering that locomotives weren't the only things to have specific speed limits when running light, following some interesting experiments, a speed limit of 60mph was imposed on Southern Region 4-REP units when running "light" in order to discourage drivers from trying to see just how fast they would go (which was certainly well in excess of the maximum permitted line speed).

[Mike Storey]

We used to use Class 09 shunters to work recycled scrap trips between Sheerness Steel, Queenborough Shipbreakers and Ridham Dock, twice a day normally, in the early 80's, but that was when the branch passenger service was hourly. They would go back to their shed at Gillingham (Kent) late evening and back again early morning, once or twice a week. But when the branch went to half-hourly working, that was all replaced with Class 33's, which could do it in less than half the time.

 

[The Johnster]

9 hours ago, bécasse said:

One suspects that it started to become an issue when bonuses were introduced for freight train working - in the previous decade?

 

It is, perhaps, also worth remembering that locomotives weren't the only things to have specific speed limits when running light, following some interesting experiments, a speed limit of 60mph was imposed on Southern Region 4-REP units when running "light" in order to discourage drivers from trying to see just how fast they would go (which was certainly well in excess of the maximum permitted line speed).

 

On one occasion in the mid 70s I was sent with a driver 'on the cushions' to Swindon from Cardiff to collect and bring back a Class 116 DMS, newly overhauled and in gleaming condition.  Once off Wootton Bassett he gave it 'the beans' and the speedo needle was hard against the 70mph stop from there to Stoke Gifford.  I have no idea how fast we were going, but would guess the low or perhaps mid 80s, and I am not aware of any speed restriction that applied to single vehicles from dmus running 'light'.

 

 

[Michael Hodgson]

13 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

 

The WTT sectional running times reflect, still, in any case the average speed for the section concerned and even then might not be 100% accurate (at one time HSTs timed to average just shy of 132mph over one section on the WR where the line speed, and the maximum permitted speed for the train, were both 125mph).   So as averages the speeds required to achieve that average would normally be higher in some places in that section than the average speed.

 

I have a vague recollection of the WR public timetable one year having one of the West Country expresses running so fast that it arrived at the next station before it had left the first !

[guzzler17]

Out of curiosity does anyone know how the Laira 08 that was outstationed at Meldon Quarry was serviced?

 

Given that it was 75 rail miles from home I wonder if some sort of local work was carried out or perhaps even the odd run to Exeter, 25 miles, for fuel and / or a light exam.

[The Stationmaster]

On 13/05/2022 at 13:36, bécasse said:

One suspects that it started to become an issue when bonuses were introduced for freight train working - in the previous decade?

 

It is, perhaps, also worth remembering that locomotives weren't the only things to have specific speed limits when running light, following some interesting experiments, a speed limit of 60mph was imposed on Southern Region 4-REP units when running "light" in order to discourage drivers from trying to see just how fast they would go (which was certainly well in excess of the maximum permitted line speed).

The Freight Train Incentive Bonus Scheme was introduced in the very late 1960s - I can remember the WR London Division work study team for the assessment period being set up in an area just along from the Train Offices in Western Tower.  They were all real railwaymen - Guards, Shunters, and even one or two Drivers carefully selected for their knowledge of actually doing the sort of jobs they would be studying so they would not be conned and they no doubt knew all the tricks of for short cuts when doing jobs.

 

I'm not sure without checking when the speed restrictions g for various classes of freights first appeared but I doubt if that would make much difference because train running time were one of the 'fixed' elements in assessing the work.  And in reality the FTIS bonus scheme was little more than a stealth pay increase for various freight jobs.

[Ben B]

On 07/05/2022 at 14:19, Aire Head said:

I recall reading that's during the 1980s an 08 was sent daily from Leeds up to Skipton to shunt the Limestone trains coming down from Swinden Quarry near Grassington.

 

It used to make the journey to and from Leeds along the Aire Valley Line every day which was a distance of around 27 miles. It was the first and last train movement of the day along the line.

 

 

I suppose at the time, with the line barely clinging to existence as a through-route (with the S&C and Clapham lines due to close), with a lot less traffic, trundling an 08 up to Skipton wouldn't be too inconvenient.  Hard to imagine it today with how busy the Aire Valley route is, most of the day there's an electric train every 20 minutes or so, with through-passenger and freight traffic!  I wonder if there was there a reason the 08 wasn't permanently stabled at Skipton?  I thought there was some form of stabling at the northern end of the station (not the current EMU sidings, but I'm sure I've seen pics of locomotives in the sidings at the Carlisle end, off the platforms).

 

When did it start becoming the norm for shifting the 08's around by road?  Early 1990's, or a side-effect of privatisation?

[AW]

3 hours ago, Ben B said:

When did it start becoming the norm for shifting the 08's around by road?  Early 1990's, or a side-effect of privatisation?

Around 1992/93. One factor would have been the demise of the last types of trains (yard to yard Class 8/9 services) in which they could be conveyed. They would then require dedicated movements, which would no doubt be economically uncompetitive.

 

http://bescotplus.co.uk/trains/08928_Bescot

[Mike Storey]

6 hours ago, Ben B said:

 

I suppose at the time, with the line barely clinging to existence as a through-route (with the S&C and Clapham lines due to close), with a lot less traffic, trundling an 08 up to Skipton wouldn't be too inconvenient.  Hard to imagine it today with how busy the Aire Valley route is, most of the day there's an electric train every 20 minutes or so, with through-passenger and freight traffic!  I wonder if there was there a reason the 08 wasn't permanently stabled at Skipton?  I thought there was some form of stabling at the northern end of the station (not the current EMU sidings, but I'm sure I've seen pics of locomotives in the sidings at the Carlisle end, off the platforms).

 

When did it start becoming the norm for shifting the 08's around by road?  Early 1990's, or a side-effect of privatisation?

 

Bear in mind that the vast majority of 08's and 09's had been withdrawn by the early 90's. There was virtually no work for them, and that which did exist was largely confined to individual yards or depots.

 

Moving members of the remaining fleet outside of their designated berth had therefore become an abnormal event. Not a side-effect of privatisation, but a natural progression which had started long before.

 

[Aire Head]

6 hours ago, Ben B said:

I wonder if there was there a reason the 08 wasn't permanently stabled at Skipton

 

Presumably because it meant you did then also need to have crews up at Skipton aswell as keeping all of the spares etc at Leeds. Much the same reasons small engine sheds at the end of branchlines died out.

[AW]

59 minutes ago, Mike Storey said:

 

Bear in mind that the vast majority of 08's and 09's had been withdrawn by the early 90's. There was virtually no work for them, and that which did exist was largely confined to individual yards or depots.

 

Moving members of the remaining fleet outside of their designated berth had therefore become an abnormal event. Not a side-effect of privatisation, but a natural progression which had started long before.

 

The Spring 1992 Platform 5 (info accurate to 1/12/91) shows 404 active 08s and 25 active 09s.

 

Hence "vast majority" is way off. Just over half would be closer.

 

A few depot allocations for those with the largest fleets at this time...

 

Allerton  30

Bescot  26

Canton  21

Crewe  17

Eastfield  16

Knottingley 17

Laira  17

Old Oak  16

Stratford  39

 

[Mike Storey]

13 hours ago, AW said:

The Spring 1992 Platform 5 (info accurate to 1/12/91) shows 404 active 08s and 25 active 09s.

 

Hence "vast majority" is way off. Just over half would be closer.

 

A few depot allocations for those with the largest fleets at this time...

 

Allerton  30

Bescot  26

Canton  21

Crewe  17

Eastfield  16

Knottingley 17

Laira  17

Old Oak  16

Stratford  39

 

 

Well, I am not going to quibble with you, save to say that just 180 were recorded on the books, by EWS (who adopted almost all of them) by 1995/6, of which half were "in store", i.e. inactive. I do not count those that went into preservation, or were being lashed on their last feet at a few industrial, private owner sites.

 

Out of a thousand plus, I would say that was the vast majority.

 

We can argue over dates, but basically, bar a few distinctive sites, their day was done by then. The days of working branch lines and "trip working" over distance, which was the OP's point of this thread, was over.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 17, 2022 by Mike Storey

[br2975]

On 26th. October, 1979, 09024 arrived at Canton, from Eastleigh, having travelled under its own power.

.

It was trialled at several locations around South Wales, including Llantrisant (yard), Llanelli (Old Castle Pilot), and Radyr (trips).

.

09024 left South Wales on 22nd. November, 1979, this time bound for Selhurst again under its own power.

Edited May 20, 2022 by br2975