Sheet supports (again, I'm sure)

[Compound2632]

I'm looking at a photo of a 5-plank open wearing 25" G W initials. I think it's an O11 (not clear but there's a hint of self-contained buffers). as far as I can see it's got no sheet support. (There is another GW 5-plank in the photo that does have a sheet support; it's partially hidden so no clue as to whether it's an O11 or an O4.

 

Does my photo date from 1912 or 1922?

[Steamport Southport]

2022?

 

 

 

 

Geof Sheppard via Wiki, and yes I know the photo says 2019.

 

 

 

[Steamport Southport]

But the correct answer would be, when did they start removing them?

 

 

Not got the books to hand.

 

 

 

Jason

[Compound2632]

17 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

But the correct answer would be, when did they start removing them?

 

That is the question I'm asking, really. I'm supposing that all O4 and O11 5-plank wagons (and any other pre-1923 diagrams that might be mistaken for them) were built with sheet supports?

[Miss Prism]

31 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I'm supposing that all O4 and O11 5-plank wagons (and any other pre-1923 diagrams that might be mistaken for them) were built with sheet supports?

 

Yes. (Apart from a few O18s, but these can be readily spotted from their sacktruck doors.)

 

[Compound2632]

8 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

Yes. (Apart from a few O18s, but these can be readily spotted from their sacktruck doors.)

 

The wagon in question has its door down - clearly plain not sack-truck.

[Miss Prism]

Apart from a batch of O33s and the china clays with internal supporters, the GWR stopped fitting sheet supporters from c 1928. This I think was a reflection on the number of covered vehicles (Minks) that were then available. Post-1930 (say), wagons with supporters were therefore in numerical decline, but it is not clear why supporters would get removed from earlier opens (unless it was damage repair of course) at a much earlier date.

 

[Western Star]

23 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

 it is not clear why supporters would get removed from earlier opens...

I recall reading in a standard GWR tome that the GWR started to remove sheet bars when other railway companies did not make reasonable contributions of wagons with bars to the "pool" of wagons - a date just after end of WW1 comes to mind.

[Compound2632]

34 minutes ago, Western Star said:

I recall reading in a standard GWR tome that the GWR started to remove sheet bars when other railway companies did not make reasonable contributions of wagons with bars to the "pool" of wagons - a date just after end of WW1 comes to mind.

 

That is what I have in mind too; but is it just folklore?

[Miss Prism]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

That is what I have in mind too; but is it just folklore?

 

I think there is a kernel of truth in it - other companies did take a fancy to well-constructed big opens with sheet supporters and good brakes. But it has probably got exaggerated over time. The GWR's formal response to the pool was to introduce the 'Return to GWR - not common user' or 'Non common user' plates, which appeared some time after the grouping (1924?).

 

[Craigw]

11 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

 

I think there is a kernel of truth in it - other companies did take a fancy to well-constructed big opens with sheet supporters and good brakes. But it has probably got exaggerated over time. The GWR's formal response to the pool was to introduce the 'Return to GWR - not common user' or 'Non common user' plates, which appeared some time after the grouping (1924?).

 

 

The GWR introduced the "Return to GWR marking" during the Great War. The Covered Van series by John Lewis in GWRJ has photos were it can be seen. At that time it only seems to appear on vacuum fitted vans though there really is not enough photos to reach a conclusion. At least some of the 018 wagons were built with sheet supporters but no NCU markings. As an aside, if the dates in the GWR wagon book are correct "the trade" was still delivering wagons with 25" lettering in 1921. The 022 wagons were delivered from around 1924, with sheet supporters and these were marked as NCU. I suspect (but cannot prove) that the GWR may have started removing sheet supporters from some older wagons at this time to ensure they kept up the numbers they needed to for the NCU arrangements. I still think Rapido have missed an opportunity with their 4 plank wagon.

 

Craig W

[Miss Prism]

Thanks Craig. I had 'opens only' blinkers on.

 

[Mikkel]

As so often before I turn to Tony Atkins whose collected works on GWR goods of course go far beyond The Bible, and always appear sound.

 

In GWR Goods Services Part 2A he discusses the reasons for fitting sheet  bars, and then writes on p56:

 

"Supporter bars were generally introduced on GWR 4-plank (later 5- and 7-plank) wagons in 1902, which were coded 'OPEN A' and 'OPEN B' (vacuum fitted); wagons equipped in this way were built by the Great Western until the mid 1920s. The LMS and LNER were not, however, convinced over the value of sheet supporter bars, and when these GWR wagons began to move around widely off the system in the 'Common User' pool after the grouping, the Great Western decided to stop spending money on the provision of further bars when the other companies did not reciprocate. Furthermore, with growing road competition, there was increasing preference to use vans for the sort of goods that required protection by tarpaulins in open wagons. By the end of 1928, some 5,000 more GWR goods vans were in traffic than at the grouping, whilst the company's stock of sheets was reduced from 58,000 to 57,000."

 

Edit: He does not in this context mention anything about bars being removed. It may be in one of the other books.

 

Edited May 8, 2022 by Mikkel

[Compound2632]

So what I'm getting so far is that a GW 5-plank wagon without sheet support is "officially" impossible before the Great War and a wagon built with a sheet support is not especially likely to have had it removed by 1922, whilst wagons built without sheet supports after the Great War would be O18 &c with sack-truck door. Which puts me in a quandry.

 

This is the photo in question:

 

 

[Embedded link to photo at https://www.midlandrailway.org.uk/derby-registers/DY1697.] 

 

This photo of Sheffield Wicker Goods Station is claimed to be from 1912, though my gut feeling is that it is actually DY12677 of 1922. I'm trying to find evidence either way; I haven't positively identified any wagon that absolutely post-dates 1912. The GW open in question is on the left, between the GC van with its door open and the freshly-painted NE diagram G2 van. The latter wears the NE lettering style introduced in 1911, as do the two NE vans just behind and to the left, though to my mind they don't look as if they've been repainted in within the last year or so. There are two or three more GW opens in the left background but they have sheet supports, either standing vertically or resting on the wagon rave. 

 

Here's a high-res snippet of the wagon in question:

 

 

While this is another high-res crop from the left background showing GW wagons with sheet supports, up on the right and on the left, resting on the rave on the far side; I think the difference between the latter and the wagon with its door down is clear enough to confirm that the latter has no sheet support:

 

 

I think it is notable that the majority of Midland wagons in the photo are fitted (or piped) vans, which were non-pool.

Edited May 8, 2022 by Compound2632

[Cwmtwrch]

14 hours ago, Craigw said:

The GWR introduced the "Return to GWR marking" during the Great War. The Covered Van series by John Lewis in GWRJ has photos were it can be seen. At that time it only seems to appear on vacuum fitted vans though there really is not enough photos to reach a conclusion.

Unfitted vans of all companies became Common User 3/6/1919, but all companies' fitted vans remained NCU, not changing status until WW2.

[magmouse]

The only thought I can offer about dating this picture is weather the fact the wagon in question has T-section side-knees helps. I am away from home so can't check reference sources - in any case I suspect T-section came in before 1912 so it doesn't help solve the dilemma, but others might be able to confirm?

 

I agree with the reading of this wagon as having no sheet support, and having self-contained buffers.

 

The picture also raises some other interesting points and questions:

 

1. In the LY wagon bottom left, what are the metal frames that accompany the sheeted load?

 

2. The wagon bottom right with the barrels - the four upright barrels seem to have the ends painted white all over. Certainly the colour is very light (even lighter than the clean roof of the adjacent van), so white or close to it. What do they contain, and why are the barrels painted this way?

 

3. Same wagon - the two barrels on their side seem to be roped, possibly to each other, but it is unclear how they are secured in the wagon. Is this a recognised method of securing a load? Or a load part way through loading/unloading? (in which case, why isn't there more evidence of this such as an open door?)

 

4. The wagon behind the one with the barrels offers an object lesson in why sheet supports are a good idea. But what are the letters on the sheet - one is an N, but the other doesn't look like an E. 

 

A higher resolution copy would be interesting to pore over - such a shame these images are now behind a pay wall!

 

Nick.

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, magmouse said:

4. The wagon behind the one with the barrels offers an object lesson in why sheet supports are a good idea. But what are the letters on the sheet - one is an N, but the other doesn't look like an E. 

 

NB.

 

7 minutes ago, magmouse said:

3. Same wagon - the two barrels on their side seem to be roped, possibly to each other, but it is unclear how they are secured in the wagon. Is this a recognised method of securing a load? Or a load part way through loading/unloading? (in which case, why isn't there more evidence of this such as an open door?)

 

A good example of why goods yard photos should be used with caution when modelling loaded wagons in goods trains.

 

8 minutes ago, magmouse said:

A higher resolution copy would be interesting to pore over - such a shame these images are now behind a pay wall!

 

I'm afraid I have my high-res copy privately, which is why I'm only posting here small crops from it.

[magmouse]

4 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

NB.

 

Of course - thanks.

 

4 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I'm afraid I have my high-res copy privately, which is why I'm only posting here small crops from it.

 

No problem - I'm certainly not asking you to breach the copyright, rather expressing a little frustration that a national collection is only available to the nation for a fee. Such is the parlous state of the funding of museums, I guess.

 

[Miss Prism]

T-section on sides came in early, c 1903 I think. (Edit: it may have been L-section initially.)

 

There is a pic in the bible of an O3, with its "sheet supporter removed or, never fitted". Although the open in the goods yard pic above is probably not an O3 (because of the buffers), I think we can assume that not all wagons that were supposed to have supporters did actually have them.

 

 

Edited May 9, 2022 by Miss Prism

[Mikkel]

Is the image in this Twitter post by David Turner any help?

 

 

Edit: This photo was taken a bit further ahead. I was wondering if it was taken later/earlier on the same day. The yard is busier here of course, and I can't immediately recognise any of the wagons, but nothing or little seems to be different in the physical surroundings. Note another load of white-topped barrels.

 

Here is the hot-link to a larger size:

 

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EPJlGbfXsAU39zU?format=jpg&name=medium

 

Edited May 9, 2022 by Mikkel

[Mikkel]

 

7 hours ago, magmouse said:

2. The wagon bottom right with the barrels - the four upright barrels seem to have the ends painted white all over. Certainly the colour is very light (even lighter than the clean roof of the adjacent van), so white or close to it. What do they contain, and why are the barrels painted this way?

 

Crop from a larger photo in my files, location unknown.

 

 

[magmouse]

1 hour ago, Mikkel said:

Crop from a larger photo in my files, location unknown.

 

Thanks for that - and of course, lamp oil must have been a considerable traffic before gas and/or electricity took over for domestic and industrial lighting.

 

Nick.

[Compound2632]

11 hours ago, Mikkel said:

Is the image in this Twitter post by David Turner any help?

 

Well, yes it does, sort of! (Sorry we will be drifting off GWR wagons here, folks, but please bear with us.) This photo has a very much higher proportion of Midland wagons, including a low-roofed van (built up to 1891). The only definitely non-Midland vehicle that leaps out at me is the L&Y van on the right, with double-sided roof hatch and inverted-V end pillars. 

 

So I don't think Dr Turner is correct in saying this is c. 1920 - it looks to me as if this could be the 1912 photograph, with the one I started from being the 1922 photo - somehow the references have got switched over. It's unfortunate that Dr Turner does not give a source for his photo. 

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

It's unfortunate that Dr Turner does not give a source for his photo. 

 

David Turner has confirmed to me that he had this photo from the old NRM photo website. The NRM captions were in many cases inaccurate and uninformative, if the carry-over to the Scince Museum website and SSPL are anything to go by.