Signalling for Addleford Green

[JRamsden]

I have reached the stage of my layout where I'm thinking about signalling and associated infrastructure. But I have to admit it boggles my mind somewhat! I'm attempting to go for as much realism as possible but have to admit I stop somewhere before "rivet-counter" level :D I tentatively put out feelers the other day and got some great feedback very quickly, but soon realised I may have missed a few earlier steps e.g. trap points!

 

Addleford Green is a branch terminus in Kent. It is a fictional 'what-if' scenario where the Hawkhurst branch extended to an equally fictitious town. The setting is around the Southern era, possibly extending into BR Southern Region when it takes my fancy. I assume the extension was built somewhere in the early 1900s. Close to the station is the Addleford Creamery which enjoys its own siding for rail-borne milk tankers. The adjacent siding features a cattle dock and loading crane for miscellaneous goods. There is a single track engine shed nearby. I hope to operate both passenger and freight, with some shunting while a passenger train is in the platform.

 

The plan below shows my current (revised) thinking in terms of point operation from the 'box. I understand that only the loop points actually need operation from the 'box and only the right-hand point requires a facing point lock. All other points are hand-operated? Two trap points should be in the loop, but I have to confess I never gave these any thought before now. I'm reluctant to relay track at this stage and wonder if anyone has had any success creating the look of trap points without using something off the shelf? Could the point to the engine shed siding be used as a trap point?

 

I'd also love some feedback on my current point rodding route. It seems a little convoluted in places because the track layout is quite cramped and leaves little space for the mechanisms required to operate the point work. In particular is the point at the centre of the loop which serves the two sidings. Where would the operating lever be placed for this point? I assume it cannot be between the main and loop lines. Can it be situated across the engine shed siding? All feedback is appreciated!

 

Many thanks in advance :)

 

[Stephen Freeman]

OK Just seen it, no doubt one of the experts will be better qualified than I.

 

1) Single blade non-working traps from a piece of rail - depends on prototype, even putting a trap inside a turnout is quite prototypical. You probably just need the one.

2) Signalling -Starter is about it though it might need some shunt ahead capability as I don't see how you would be able to extract any wagons from the sidings otherwise. Man with flag?

3) Do you really need a signal box? A ground frame would suffice and I am not sure you really need an FPL on the release turnout.

[RailWest]

1. The signal is a Starter. 'Home Starter' is a tautological nonsense description, it can not be both :)

2. The facing point at the RH end of the loop requires one rod for the point and one rod for the FPL (unless you assume an 'economic' FPL, which seems unlikely but not impossible if you imagine any HF Stevens influence !)

3. No FPL needed at the LH end.

4  The rod from the trap at the LH end would go straight across under the platform line and 'drop off' from under the main rod run, not go the long way around as drawn.

5 You can't use the ES road point as a trap 'cos it faces the wrong way :-) Given the proximity of that point to the main line, then most likely there would be two single-blade traps - both worked from the same lever + rod - somewhere in the vicinity of the point crossing nose, one in the outer rail of the ES siding and the other in the outer rail of the loop.

6.  A single-rail trap in the outer rail of the RH end of the loop as marked.

Edited May 8, 2022 by RailWest

[RailWest]

>>>.... the point at the centre of the loop which serves the two sidings. Where would the operating lever be placed for this point? I assume it cannot be between the main and loop lines. Can it be situated across the engine shed siding? 

 

Agreed on both counts. Many instances where hand levers were separated from their point by another line for just such a reason.

[JRamsden]

Thanks for all your help folks :)

 

4 hours ago, Stephen Freeman said:

1) Single blade non-working traps from a piece of rail - depends on prototype, even putting a trap inside a turnout is quite prototypical. You probably just need the one.

2) Signalling -Starter is about it though it might need some shunt ahead capability as I don't see how you would be able to extract any wagons from the sidings otherwise. Man with flag?

3) Do you really need a signal box? A ground frame would suffice and I am not sure you really need an FPL on the release turnout.

 

1) I had no idea this was a thing! This may be useful knowledge given how little space I have.

2) I didn't consider this. I may be able to modify the signal I have to feature a non operational shunting arm, perhaps?

3) I'm basically copying the setup that was at the real-life terminus, Hawkhurst. I assume they only had a 'box because they were planning on continuing the line later, something that never happened in real life. But it's built and in place now, so I'd rather keep it :)

 

4 hours ago, RailWest said:

1. The signal is a Starter. 'Home Starter' is a tautological nonsense description, it can not be both :)

2. The facing point at the RH end of the loop requires one rod for the point and one rod for the FPL (unless you assume an 'economic' FPL, which seems unlikely but not impossible if you imagine any HF Stevens influence !)

3. No FPL needed at the LH end.

4  The rod from the trap at the LH end would go straight across under the platform line and 'drop off' from under the main rod run, not go the long way around as drawn.

5 You can't use the ES road point as a trap 'cos it faces the wrong way :-) Given the proximity of that point to the main line, then most likely there would be two single-blade traps - both worked from the same lever + rod - somewhere in the vicinity of the point crossing nose, one in the outer rail of the ES siding and the other in the outer rail of the loop.

6.  A single-rail trap in the outer rail of the RH end of the loop as marked.

 

1) Good to know, thank you for educating me! :) 

 

OK, I'm learning about trap points! I hope I have interpreted your instructions correctly; I have revised the plan and include it below. So one trap to protect against anything in the loop, and another against anything in the ES line?

 

 

I may have to get creative in terms of creating these trap points.

[RailWest]

 

Not quite...:-)

One trap in the ES siding and one in the loop roughly in line with it. Both worked by a rod coming straight across from the rod by the platform under the loop.

 

I've done a very rough edit of your photo which hopefully (!) will make this clearer. The orange lines are the diverging parts of the trap points. The pink lines are the rodding (I've omitted any cranks etc). There are others on here who may have different ideas...:-) You might perhaps want to move the traps a little bit further to the right to the other side of the crossing nose

 

IMHO no needs for any subsidiary 'shunt ahead' arm or similar, just a hand-signal from the signal-man would suffice.

Edited May 8, 2022 by RailWest

[JRamsden]

2 hours ago, RailWest said:

 Not quite...:-)

 

Oops, that photo was an accident. I was going to use it to show how cramped the space is, but seems it was useful anyway.

 

Thanks so much for your help and perseverance. That is much clearer to my brain! 

 

This seems like a really specific piece of trackwork. You wouldn't happen to know where I can see a photo of the real thing or anything similar, would you?

 

Jonathan 

[Michael Hodgson]

Unusual for a steam era* terminus station not to have a coal merchants and even more so to lack a goods shed, but you are obviously very constrained by space.  Personally I would lose the cattle dock (or even the loco shed, as not all branches needed one) and convert that line to goods shed.

 

* I assume that's your period as cattle and milk traffic would have gone if it's modern image, as of course would the loco shed.

Edited May 8, 2022 by Michael Hodgson

[JRamsden]

8 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Unusual for a steam era* terminus station not to have a coal merchants and even more so to lack a goods shed, but you are obviously very constrained by space.  Personally I would lose the cattle dock (or even the loco shed, as not all branches needed one) and convert that line to goods shed.

 

* I assume that's your period as cattle and milk traffic would have gone if it's modern image, as of course would the loco shed.

 

Yes, it will be mostly steam era; Southern into BR. I did a lot of umming and ahhing over this plan, I must say! The space is very small and there were many things I wanted - a goods shed was on the plan for a while - but in the end I reached a compromise. Much of what is featured is only here because I was using the Hawkhurst Branch as a template. Hawkhurst station itself had more infrastructure than you'd expect (including a two-road engine shed!) purely because they intended to extend in the future. The cattle dock was a last minute addition purely because I acquired some lovely SR cattle wagons and wanted an excuse to run them! :D There are things I'd do differently if I started again (I've already done that once...) but all the buildings arebuilt and the track laid, so I don't plan to make major changes again at this stage.

 

Incidentally, I have come across a photo of what @RailWest has been describing. I've seen it called a "Tandem trap" and the Strathspey Railway's signalling blog has a great set of photos showing the exact setup of such a trap. I couldn't be luckier to have such clear reference material! The blog has several entries which show the pointwork, mostly in May and June for anyone who might be interested: https://signallingstrathspey.blogspot.com/2020/05/morley-project.html

[The Stationmaster]

15 hours ago, JRamsden said:

 

 

 

This seems like a really specific piece of trackwork. You wouldn't happen to know where I can see a photo of the real thing or anything similar, would you?

 

Jonathan 

Here you go - single tongue trap points we very very common in this sort of situation

 

https://www.dreamstime.com/steam-train-line-alongside-semaphore-signals-station-yard-diesel-shed-rail-lines-crossing-straight-out-image169089132

[The Stationmaster]

3 hours ago, JRamsden said:

 

 

 

Incidentally, I have come across a photo of what @RailWest has been describing. I've seen it called a "Tandem trap" and the Strathspey Railway's signalling blog has a great set of photos showing the exact setup of such a trap. I couldn't be luckier to have such clear reference material! The blog has several entries which show the pointwork, mostly in May and June for anyone who might be interested: https://signallingstrathspey.blogspot.com/2020/05/morley-project.html

Not a good example, nor a decent photo of it, really - in fact I'm still trying to work out exactly what it does although that's not helped by the fact that some of the point is missing!   The Bodmin example I linked shows precisely, and completely, what is involved in this sort of arrangement.  

[Stephen Freeman]

Strangely enough I think I may have some info on Hawkhurst,  will have a look. Sorry wrong Hurst!

Edited May 9, 2022 by Stephen Freeman

[JRamsden]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Not a good example, nor a decent photo of it, really - in fact I'm still trying to work out exactly what it does although that's not helped by the fact that some of the point is missing!   The Bodmin example I linked shows precisely, and completely, what is involved in this sort of arrangement.  

 

Many thanks for the link and great photo. Nice to know I'm on the right track now... so to speak. That is definitely a nice clear shot and  should help me get the look right :)

[dave55uk]

Maybe sticking my neck out a bit here, but....

 

I don't think ANY trap points are necessarily required.

The point on the loop leading to the creamery and cattle dock would be one of a pair, the second of the pair would be

the one on the main line outside the signalbox - a crossover in effect.

At the other end of the loop, all points could/would be hand worked.

As incoming passenger trains would stop with the front coach clear of the left-most point (otherwise the engine could

not run round), then any trap points that end would not be necessary.

 

As for the signalling, a starter on the right-hand end of the platform, with an assumed advance starter AND an assumed

incoming home signal (for the platform line) and a small arm or ground signal (for the loop/yard).

To complete the picture, a YELLOW ground signal at the toe-end of the right-hand point on the loop.

 

Given the size constraits of the area, I would be very surprised if there was more than one loco present at any one time.

 

 

Edited May 11, 2022 by dave55uk

[RailWest]

>>>>>I don't think ANY trap points are necessarily required.

 

With respect, trap point ARE needed - whether they are just trap-points, or also serve to access another siding is simply a matter of implementation. In the case of the point on the loop leading to the creamery, then IMHO there is too big a gap between that and the point in the main line, with the risk therefore that a small wagon could be left between the two and foul the main-line.

 

>>>As incoming passenger trains would stop with the front coach clear of the left-most point (otherwise the engine could

not run round), then any trap points that end would not be necessary.

 

Where the train would stop is irrelevant - the important location is the defined limit of passenger train working (LPTW). If an incoming passenger can pull up all the way to the buffer stop if necessary, then you need a trap point at the LH loop end in order to protect that movement. The only way to avoid that would be if the trailing point at the LH end were some distance to the left of the platform, in which case you could define the end of the platform as the LPTW and have the normal position of that point set for the loop, thereby acting as the trap to protect the platform road (the GWR did this quite often, eg Helston or Princetown etc).

 

>>>As for the signalling, a starter on the right-hand end of the platform, with an assumed advance starter AND an assumed

incoming home signal (for the platform line) and a small arm or ground signal (for the loop/yard). To complete the picture, a YELLOW ground signal at the toe-end of the right-hand point on the loop.

 

As I've said before, ideally the Up Starting should be on the platform in rear of the loop point. You could assume an up Advanced Starting if you want, but it would not really be necessary. Definitely a Down Home, which IMHO ought to be 'in view' just to the right of the loop entry point. Almost certainly a ground signal rather than small arm for entry into the loop (if at all). If there is a discrete trap-point at the RH end of the loop, as opposed to using the creamery siding point, then a RED ground signal for exit. If you do use the siding point instead as a trap-point, then whether the ground signal would be yellow rather than red would depend upon whether or not you think the Southern would have got around to upgrading it by the time of your layout period.

 

Of course, as HM might say "..views may differ.." :-)

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, dave55uk said:

Maybe sticking my neck out a bit here, but....

 

I don't think ANY trap points are necessarily required.

The point on the loop leading to the creamery and cattle dock would be one of a pair, the second of the pair would be

the one on the main line outside the signalbox - a crossover in effect.

At the other end of the loop, all points could/would be hand worked.

As incoming passenger trains would stop with the front coach clear of the left-most point (otherwise the engine could

not run round), then any trap points that end would not be necessary.

 

As for the signalling, a starter on the right-hand end of the platform, with an assumed advance starter AND an assumed

incoming home signal (for the platform line) and a small arm or ground signal (for the loop/yard).

To complete the picture, a YELLOW ground signal at the toe-end of the right-hand point on the loop.

 

Given the size constraits of the area, I would be very surprised if there was more than one loco present at any one time.

 

 

Some of that sounds a bit too modern for the period.   First of all you could not have a running signal reading to a hand point,  even a trailing hand point, as that point could be set for a different route from that to which the signal applies.  If it is going to be a hand point - as per some heritage railways, then it needs to be protected by either a running signal fixed at danger (quite a rarity but such things did exist) or - although not strictly correct for a running route - a STOP board (but practice in respect of signal reading to STOP boards did vary over the years.

 

But, apart from saving the cost of some rodding, why use a hand point?  The platform line still has to be protected by a trap point although admittedly it could be sprung to remain open.  But I suspect the cramped nature of the layout would then require it to be slotted - so we are back to a point worked from the lever and working in conjunction with the engine release point.

 

I agree with 'Railwest' regarding using that siding point as a trap as it is clear that a vehicle could be left standing between that point and the running line.   Adding a dummy single y tongue trap is a nice simple job so no extra cost would be involved assuming a short piece of rail and some simple tools plus the right adhesive are already in stock. 

 

No need whatsoever for an Advanced Starter as it doesn't really serve any purpose at all - so such things were very unusual at stations like this.  The Home Signal should quite obviously be at, or very near, the toe of the point leading to the yard loop  (to accommodate the position of the locking bar) if it is to serve any useful purpose - so very much on scene.   But in theory if the layout was worked by a  something classified as a 'ground frame'. released by the train staff then a Home Signal might not necessarily be needed.     Obviously the Starting Signal needs to be at the platform end in rear of the trailing point and the associated fouling point.  At that period and at a location like this I would have not expected to find any ground signals.   Far more complex layouts at this sort of terminus did without them right up until closure in the 1960s and certainly to the end of passenger services in quite a few cases.

Edited May 11, 2022 by The Stationmaster

[Michael Hodgson]

4 hours ago, dave55uk said:

I don't think ANY trap points are necessarily required.

The point on the loop leading to the creamery and cattle dock would be one of a pair, the second of the pair would be

the one on the main line outside the signalbox - a crossover in effect.

 

That arrangement would indeed be permissible provided that the creamery siding point were right next to the main line point to avoid the risk of stock being left in the wrong place, as indicated by Railwest.  That is, if you were to swap the right hand point into the creamery and the piece of curved track for a straight and a left hand or Y point respectively.  However the creamery siding would then have to be even shorter, so it wouldn't really help here given the extreme constraint on space.  But on layouts with enough space, using such a siding is often convenient.

 

The issue here is that the position of a trap has be where it will protect against any stray vehicle.  Even when the ground is level, wagons inadvertently left without applying the brake have been known to move in strong winds.  With an engine shed nearby, the risk of rogue movement is even greater.  Traps could sometimes be neeeded within crossovers where they are unusually long, for example where a couple of sidings intervene between the lines affected, because stupid as it may sound, a wagon could be left in the middle of a crossover between the running lines!

 

 

[JRamsden]

Hey folks, thanks for all your thoughts on this. It makes for interesting reading :)

 

I should mention that some of these items are already applied to the board and the space is even more limited than the plan suggests. The starter is already in place and there's just no space to bring it forward as it's one of those motorised ones that requires space above and below the board. Was this ever an issue in real life? Would there have been an inventive solution to accommodate for when a signal could not be placed exactly where it needed to be? Beyond the starter's current position, there's a scale 50ft before it meets the edge of the scenic section and heads into the fiddle yard. 

 

I often use Hawkhurst station as a reference point as it was the original terminus of the line I'm modelling. It's design is not too different to my own, albeit with slightly more sidings and a bay platform. I never paid much attention before, but photos clearly show trap points in the loop and the signalling diagram shows them too. Ground signals are present also, based apparently on an SECR design and seem to be common along the line. Picture below from Wizard Models Ltd, not my own sketch!

 

 

Additionally, from what I can see, the 14 lever signal box operates every set of points on the diagram. But hand operated points means less rodding, so I'm more than happy to go with that!

 

Weighing up the options, it seems that trap points were used in a similar fashion to those described here and I'll probably attempt to replicate them on my layout. Space is definitely confined and mine is certainly a much-condensed approximation of the sort of stations that existed.

 

I guess my next question would be a follow-up on ground signals. Where would they need to be placed? On the Hawkhurst diagram there is one leaving the head shunt (presumably for the loop?) Another from the loop onto the main line (RH end). Would there need to be any signals into or out of the sidings or engine shed? 

 

Thanks as always,

Jonathan :)

[RailWest]

As regards style of ground-signal, it all depends really upon (a) what was the preference of your chosen pre-Grouping company and (b) to what extent, if at all, your feel the S Rly would have upgraded them.

 

As regards placement:-

• One at the toe of the trailing point at the LH end of the platform, reading into the loop/sidings only
• One at the toe of the trap(s) at the LH end of the loop. If you have traps in both the loop and ES road as suggested,then simply put it outside of the ES road to apply to both.
• One at the toe of the facing point at the RH end of the platform, reading into the loop only. NB: if you put the Home there also, then probably it would be next to the base of that post.
• One at the toe of the trap at the RH end of the loop.

None needed for moves to/from any individual siding.

[Stephen Freeman]

Motorising a signal with limited space above baseboard is not necessarily a problem as long as there is space below, it just demands a different approach, which is not possible with a Mass Produced signal.

[JRamsden]

Potentially silly question... I understand most signals are placed on the left side of the track. Does this rule always follow for ground signals too? I assume there's an exception somewhere, as usual!

 

Also, for points that are hand operated. Would these be a simple lever that could be operated whenever, or a ground frame connected to the 'box in some way?

[RailWest]

Signals are usually put on the LHS, but where necessary because of sighting or lack of clearance etc then often on the RHS instead.

 

Much the same with ground signals, although I think - but can't find any confirmation - that at one time there was some sort of rule relating to which side was most likely to be visible to the driver when needing to watch the signal during shuntind.

 

Hand points would be simple levers, one next to each point. No locking or connection to the SB.

 

 

[Michael Hodgson]

2 hours ago, JRamsden said:

Potentially silly question... I understand most signals are placed on the left side of the track. Does this rule always follow for ground signals too? I assume there's an exception somewhere, as usual!

Some ground signals apply to more than one track (coming out of a group of sidings), and in that case it would commonly be placed between them. 

 

Also, to avoid ambiguity where it may not be obvious which track a signal applies to, ground signals often have a little arrow pointing to the applicable line(s), as 27.2 on this page

https://www.railsigns.uk/sect27page1.html 

[RailWest]

4 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 

>>>Some ground signals apply to more than one track (coming out of a group of sidings), and in that case it would commonly be placed between them. ...

 

True, but....equally, it was not unknown to place the ground-signal outside of (say) a pair of converging sidings and make it apply to both.

 

>>>Also, to avoid ambiguity where it may not be obvious which track a signal applies to, ground signals often have a little arrow pointing to the applicable line.....

 

IIRC the LB&SCR used to have a nifty-looking 'pointing finger' symbol for such purposes. On the other hand, if the L&SWR ever used pointers then IMHO it would have been a rare exception. I suspect the 'RailSigns' version is too modern for the OP's layout, but I may be wrong....

[Michael Hodgson]

26 minutes ago, RailWest said:

IIRC the LB&SCR used to have a nifty-looking 'pointing finger' symbol for such purposes.

As did the Midland, so quite possibly also a number of other lines.