Chinese manufacturing delays now causing major issues

[woodenhead]

1 hour ago, Allegheny1600 said:

Not disputing what you say, Phil - just what Jason says.

What about the RTR stuff from DJH, OO Works and Union Mills?

They might not complete with China and price but they must have the skills.

But the level of intricacy of those models is less than on an RTR model from Accurascale, Bachmann, Heljan, CavAlex, Rapido, Dapol or even Hornby.

[Phil Parker]

2 hours ago, Allegheny1600 said:

Not disputing what you say, Phil - just what Jason says.

What about the RTR stuff from DJH, OO Works and Union Mills?

They might not complete with China and price but they must have the skills.

 

Union Mills is one man called Colin working out of a stone building on the Isle of Man. I visited him for the October 2017 issue of BRM, and he's a really great guy.

 

 

The models are very well reguarded, but don't offer anything like the detail of a modern Farish N gauge loco.

 

You can say a similar thing about OO Works, and DJH's 7mm scale J72 is £999 - the cheapest in the range.

 

Bacially, you can make things in the UK, but the standards will need to revert to the 1960s, or pay a lot more for your models.

 

[The Stationmaster]

10 hours ago, GWR-fan said:

Wagons could possibly translate to local production,  however with no disrespect to other nationalities,  the Chinese for over twenty years have demonstrated that they have a highly skilled workforce with the dexterity to assemble very detailed locomotive models.  I recall when LGB commenced production in Hungary that warranty issues surfaced.  On one particular locomotive there were issues with the drive bogies.  It seems the workers ignored the requirement to install a specified number of screws securing the lower cover plate and assumed near enough was good enough with the result the bogies failed.

Don't forget that a couple of 3-D printed wagons have been produced in Britain for the r-t-r market (made for and sold by Rails) but both have, I understand, been produced in relatively small numbers.   But it is also noticeable that one of them has in effect been gazumped by a similar wagon, of the same prototype, injection moulded and assembled in China  and both are currently being offered at the same price level.  

 

That perhaps begins to illustrate, at a fairly basic level, the difference between production based in China using injection moulding and hand assembly and a much simpler manufacturing process carried out in Britain with far less assembly work involved.  The infrastructure and labour force skills exist in China to allow far more expensive methods of manufacture of a model which is then shipped halfway round the world to sell at a similar price to something made locally using a much simpler process (and probably in lesser numbers).  

[Quarryscapes]

Based on the quotes we receive for manufacturing stuff in the UK vs China, you can expect UK made to cost about 7x more than Chinese made, and the Chinese made one will almost certainly be better and less hassle.

[Roy Langridge]

4 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

Jason Shron has explained in the past that neither Canda or the UK has the skills base to do this assembly work, nor could compete with the price that China can manage.

 

Let's be honest, it is only cost that is the real issue. If the product could be produced in the UK at a competitive price, we could develop the skill base needed, as we have in other industries. All the time we are not financially viable, that skill set will never exist,

 

Roy

[adb968008]

3 hours ago, APOLLO said:

 

Interesting.

 

With the current chip (etc etc) shortages new cars are getting thin on the garage forecourts. I suspect that, together with the switch to manufacturing EV's there is perhaps the same profit to be made by a manufacturer selling one medium to high end (expensive) EV than two low spec ICE vehicles (that are difficult if not impossible to source at the moment). I have read two major manufacturers will cease production of ICE powered cars very soon (certainly well before the government cut off date). 

 

The world is changing quickly, and not always to the advantage of most people. We all have to live with it & adapt.

 

Brit15

At risk of being a bit of a numpty, Is it just me or does anyone else think an ICE car is a small British manufactured ICE cream van that predictably comes without cream ?

 

can someone educate me, I’ve not seen many cars melting on the street…and I’ve not tried them for flavours..

Edited May 20, 2022 by adb968008

[woodenhead]

5 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

At risk of being a bit of a numpty, Is it just me or does anyone else think an ICE car is a small British manufactured ICE cream van that predictably comes without cream ?

 

can someone educate me, I’ve not seen many cars melting on the street…and I’ve not tried them for flavours..

I think an ICE car comes with an AM/FM radio, if it's posh there will be a cassette tape slot as well.

[Steamport Southport]

2 hours ago, woodenhead said:

But the level of intricacy of those models is less than on an RTR model from Accurascale, Bachmann, Heljan, CavAlex, Rapido, Dapol or even Hornby.

 

I don't think it's the intricacy that is the problem as building a 7mm DJH kit is far more advanced than putting together a RTR 00 gauge model.

 

It's that old thing called wages. How much would you want paying if you were a skilled worker to put them together?

 

£10 PH?, £20? £30? You can get those sort of wages working in warehouses in parts of the UK and they are struggling to fill those vacancies as nobody wants to do it.

 

 

Jason

[Bucoops]

55 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

At risk of being a bit of a numpty, Is it just me or does anyone else think an ICE car is a small British manufactured ICE cream van that predictably comes without cream ?

 

can someone educate me, I’ve not seen many cars melting on the street…and I’ve not tried them for flavours..

 

Internal Combustion Engine :)

[maico]

7 hours ago, SamThomas said:

Indeed, some of the European Companies such as Roco have facilities in Slovakia & the Phippines.

 

Roco's main factory is in Arad Romania. Design and mold making shown in this video are in Austria and the rest of production in Romania. They also have a factory in Vietnam.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0XeK8Dkb4Y&t=196s&ab_channel=JackDRipper

 

Marklin Trix split production between Germany and a newish factory in Hungary. Some of the start range is made in China. There has been recent new investment in the German facilities.

Key word here is investment and opening new facilities in Eastern Europe, a model followed by many successful German companies.

 

The various German tool trade shows for hand and machine tools would be an

eye-opener to many in the UK. Hundreds of German company stands in every sector and from other European countries too but virtually no British involvement.

 

Edited May 20, 2022 by maico

[D9020 Nimbus]

8 hours ago, McC said:

The trouble for model railways is that , from the SandaKan days, there is a generational skill base now, centred around 7 or 8 medium and large factories. It would take a decade of investment and training to put that kind of resource anywhere else.

And yet the manufacturers using Chinese-based suppliers tell us they have major problems retaining staff — with their being tempted by companies in other sectors, electronics for example; so how can such a base exist?

 

I also find the statement that it would take 7 times as much to make stuff in the UK to China surprising, given 

 

Most Minitrix locomotives are made in Germany.

The prices are broadly comparable with those of Liliput N gauge locos — made in China (by Bachmann).

Both are approximately 1.5 times that of Farish locomotives.

 

So are UK costs significantly more than German?

 

 

[Jonboy]

One of the problems our suppliers in China have is the migration involved in working. Many manufacturing staff go to the work areas for 11 months and then home to see family for a month at Chinese New Year.
If they have enough money to survive at the family home for a year, then they don’t travel back after CNY and take a year out of workforce….and that’s before the issues of alternative work.

[Andy Mac]

25 minutes ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

 

I also find the statement that it would take 7 times as much to make stuff in the UK to China surprising, given 

 

Average salary in the UK is 4 times higher than China….  Power costs will be significantly more in the Uk, as well as tax rates and other associated costs…. So  I’d say it’s beyond argument that manufacturing complex models in UK will be many times more expensive…. 

[eldomtom2]

7 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Don't forget that a couple of 3-D printed wagons have been produced in Britain for the r-t-r market (made for and sold by Rails) but both have, I understand, been produced in relatively small numbers.

Fourdees also produce 3D printed OO9 locos, though they buy in chassis from Kato (who manufacture in Japan).

 

It is clear that manufacturing model trains outside China is perfectly viable; however Britain is unlikely to be at the top of the list for manufacturers wishing to move production outside of China.

[APOLLO]

6 hours ago, adb968008 said:

At risk of being a bit of a numpty, Is it just me or does anyone else think an ICE car is a small British manufactured ICE cream van that predictably comes without cream ?

 

can someone educate me, I’ve not seen many cars melting on the street…and I’ve not tried them for flavours..

 

ICE = Internal Combustion Engine.

 

Brit15

[dibber25]

20 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Just had a look through some of the Airfix kits I've got. All recent.

 

Made in India.

 

 

Jason

They've been made in India for years. (CJL)

[dibber25]

2 hours ago, eldomtom2 said:

Fourdees also produce 3D printed OO9 locos, though they buy in chassis from Kato (who manufacture in Japan).

 

It is clear that manufacturing model trains outside China is perfectly viable; however Britain is unlikely to be at the top of the list for manufacturers wishing to move production outside of China.

So clear that no one is doing it? 3D printing and mass production are not the same thing. (CJL)

[APOLLO]

Ah - made in India !!

 

 

Brit15

[adb968008]

On 20/05/2022 at 19:31, APOLLO said:

 

ICE = Internal Combustion Engine.

 

Brit15

Aha… an engine vs a motor.given the price of electric I have to wonder how efficient it stacks up against latest energy prices and the overall utility of a battery pack degrading year by year from manufacture.

 

 

my 5 year old car is averaging c20-25p a mile on diesel in town and 12p on motorway… at £1.80 a litre.. I get about 250-300 miles in town, 15-30mph driving but  500-550 on a tank using the motorway at 70..

 

Hows a 5 year old electric car by comparison ?

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 22, 2022 by adb968008

[Johan DC]

18 hours ago, adb968008 said:

frateschi Is based in Brazil, since 1958.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frateschi

Yes, but both quality and detail are not up to modern standards. For me, all model railways are toys, from Accurascale to LGB, but Frateschi really is on the cheap. With AS, LGB and others, you can see that they really try to bring a smaller version of the real thing to life. FR is more about 'looks like it is good enough' filosophy. Hornby Railroad is finer in detail than those, and better quality as well. 

[Neil]

6 hours ago, Balgrayhill said:

..... On the issue of staff, try getting them in the UK!  Its quite clear that a growing number of the 'workforce' want to earn as much money as possible for doing as little as possible, or become a 'sleb due to their over-inflated sense of self-importance.  

 

Well, with inflation overall at 9% and higher in some crucial areas, who can blame employees for trying to keep their heads above water. 

[Phil Parker]

7 minutes ago, Balgrayhill said:

Its nothing to do with inflation, this 'everything for nothing culture' has been growing on over the past few years

 

Presumably you have always been determined to earn a pittance for your work, refusing any pay rises and living on gravel and rainwater. Don't bother with the four Yorkshire men sketch thank you. 

[Hibelroad]

Of course there is another way to avoid shipping delays and cut labour costs, it’s called scratch buildings ( or kit building) and is the traditional way a modeller would obtain stock. 

[eldomtom2]

11 hours ago, dibber25 said:

So clear that no one is doing it?

Yes, we all just hallucinated the long list of manufacturers we discussed in this thread that make injection-moulded models outside of China.

[Phil Parker]

1 minute ago, eldomtom2 said:

Yes, we all just hallucinated the long list of manufacturers we discussed in this thread that make injection-moulded models outside of China.

 

And which ones are those? Perhaps you could remind us of the list of manufacturers producing RTR models up to the standards of those coming out of China. We've had 3D printers (Fourdees,  Rails), tiny diecasters (Union Mills), kit assemblers (OO Works, DJH) but China is currently where its at if you want quality and a price people don't moan at (much).