Moderators AY Mod Posted May 22, 2022 Moderators Share Posted May 22, 2022 2 hours ago, Andy Mac said: I just find it amazing that when some of the manufacturers post on here and state unequivocally about the costs of manufacturing in China versus bring manufacturing back to the UK, that folk just don’t seem to accept the opinion/facts of people who have skin in the game… Sadly people believe what they want to believe these days. It's always been the case but, in the social age, they get to tell more people. The beliefs often stem from their political or geopolitical perspectives and are receptive to echo-chamber noises. What gets given as facts in contradiction of their view is simply disregarded or viewed as an incorrect opinion. The only thing for sure is that the facts will remain disregarded when they next offer their view in the resolute belief they are right and everyone should take note. 5 8 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators AY Mod Posted May 22, 2022 Moderators Share Posted May 22, 2022 6 minutes ago, eldomtom2 said: I would not call them an unbiased source. And equally you find people on here who completely ignore the existence of non-Chinese manufacturing... No-one is ignoring it, several have explained the difference. My previous point is made. 3 4 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Johan DC Posted May 22, 2022 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 22, 2022 7 hours ago, adb968008 said: (I disagree Hornby railroad is better, theres more detail parts to attach, but theres not much in it), but so QED. I haven't seen the latest products yet, (even in Brazil not easy to find) they are said to be better and DCC ready, at about £100, I would put those at Railroad Plus level, but most of the Frateschi stock is really cheap in feel and look. They are cheap, £40 for a 2-8-0 tender engine. I gave my niece a Hornby City of Gloucester set, and I almost had to drag away her father, so she had some time to enjoy it. Both the (not lighted) pullmans and the loc where something he hasn't seen here. I can not compare like for like, because I don't have Railroad Diesel engines. Maybe they're not so good as the steam ones? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willie Whizz Posted May 22, 2022 Share Posted May 22, 2022 15 hours ago, Nova Scotian said: If only there were some trading block the UK could be part of where you could harmonise standards across, say, 28 countries, that would then have the negotiating power to include these regulations in their trade - which they'd be able to do because they'd be the largest single market in the world - shame nothing like that exists... Mmmm … and if only it would just stick to being a trading bloc, and not try to spread its tentacles into many other aspects of political, legal, economic, business, social and personal life that weren’t about trade … Shame that there was something which started out like what was described, but evolved into something quite different. 3 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
miles73128 Posted May 22, 2022 Share Posted May 22, 2022 6 hours ago, AY Mod said: Sadly people believe what they want to believe these days. It's always been the case but, in the social age, they get to tell more people. The beliefs often stem from their political or geopolitical perspectives and are receptive to echo-chamber noises. What gets given as facts in contradiction of their view is simply disregarded or viewed as an incorrect opinion. The only thing for sure is that the facts will remain disregarded when they next offer their view in the resolute belief they are right and everyone should take note. Completely 100% agree with this. The lack of critical analysis and evidenced based evaluation skills is a 21st Century problem. Adding in emotional subjective opinions creates a toxic mix, resulting in erroneous judgments. 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted May 22, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 22, 2022 (edited) 11 minutes ago, miles73128 said: Completely 100% agree with this. The lack of critical analysis and evidenced based evaluation skills is a 21st Century problem. Adding in emotional subjective opinions creates a toxic mix, resulting in erroneous judgments. Trouble is you do the analysis, put the time into the results but… a. Nonone wants to pay for it. b. Someone in the ether will come up with a groundless conspiracy for the opposite. And the analysis and results is usually in charts, graphs in black and white…and generally boring, expect for the science. the conspiracy usually comes with a heavy metal video, flashy effects and grainy long distance graphics with red subtitles saying sources are secretive and undercover. Edited May 22, 2022 by adb968008 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyman7 Posted May 22, 2022 Share Posted May 22, 2022 12 hours ago, eldomtom2 said: I would not call them an unbiased source. And equally you find people on here who completely ignore the existence of non-Chinese manufacturing... Calling manufacturers 'biased' on the subject of where they get their products manufactured is a bit like calling a heart surgeon 'biased' because they claim to be able to carry out heart surgery better than someone who isn't a heart surgeon 🙄 3 2 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted May 22, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 22, 2022 So to try to summarise what we're saying - 1. Hornby products are running late because they are made in China (hardly something new as they've suffered delays in recent years. (Just like everybody else in the trade I reckon and certainly no different from some models I do know about). 2.if you don't believe those who are actually in the model railway business and use Chinese manufacturing it is simple to switch the work elsewhere, including Great Britain, without any real difficulty and no major impact of prices or levels of detail. 3. The inference from Item 2 is that presumably they would arrive in the market on time in sufficient numbers for everybody to buy on release - which I find a little odd as that was definitely not always the case back in the apparently good old days. 4. If you believe repeated statements from those who actually market and design models and have them made in Chinese factories they would definitely cost (a lot) more if made elsewhere (especially in GB). 5. For some reason I can't really follow apparently the EU was good, or was it not good, for model railway manufacturing. Considering how many EU, including the UK, based model railway manufacturers have gone bust at various times in past decades I think that might help reach a conclusion but as it ''politivcs' there's no need to debate it here. 6.As so often we're back where we started. Whatever we say won't get models here any quicker or establish a new or different manufacturing base wherever. Unless, of course, someone who seems keen on the idea is happy to put their money where their typing finger(s) are roving. 5 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted May 23, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 23, 2022 7 hours ago, andyman7 said: Calling manufacturers 'biased' on the subject of where they get their products manufactured is a bit like calling a heart surgeon 'biased' because they claim to be able to carry out heart surgery better than someone who isn't a heart surgeon 🙄 As an anecdotal aside, when plumbing, I had a customer who was a heart surgeon, he reckoned his job was less skilful than mine in some ways because when he opened up a patient he knew what he was going to find, whereas when I opened a cylinder/boiler cupboard door I was potentially in for a surprise every time! Mike. 13 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pmorgancym Posted May 23, 2022 Share Posted May 23, 2022 On 20/05/2022 at 23:22, Balgrayhill said: Its quite clear that a growing number of the 'workforce' want to earn as much money as possible for doing as little as possible... Unless someone is doing a job they truely love, I wouldn't expect anything else. 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernard Lamb Posted May 23, 2022 Share Posted May 23, 2022 On 21/05/2022 at 20:56, maico said: Depends on the product. Many running shoes are now made in Vietnam and Thailand. I've just bought a pair of Asics, a Japanese company founded in the 1960s that Nike copied, and who have for many years used a miracle rubber compound on their soles. Very grippy in the wet yet very long-lasting. They were made in Cambodia. The Samsung A22 smartphone I just bought was made in China and I expect the ESU Lokpilot decoder that arrived today was too. China has cornered electronics production for foreign companies. I have friends in Thailand who design, manufacture and sell a large range of products for household decoration. They design the products at home and sell world wide. They do not have anything made in Thailand theses days as it has become too expensive. They use China and increasingly Vietnam. Of course a company that has made a big investment in Thailand is in a different situation. As you point out, the search for new cheaper sources for production continues. Bernard 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eldomtom2 Posted May 23, 2022 Share Posted May 23, 2022 12 hours ago, andyman7 said: Calling manufacturers 'biased' on the subject of where they get their products manufactured is a bit like calling a heart surgeon 'biased' because they claim to be able to carry out heart surgery better than someone who isn't a heart surgeon 🙄 I do not dispute that manufacturing in China is cheaper. I do dispute that manufacturers have no incentive to massage the truth to make manufacturing outside of China look completely impossible. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold McC Posted May 23, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 23, 2022 1 minute ago, eldomtom2 said: I do not dispute that manufacturing in China is cheaper. I do dispute that manufacturers have no incentive to massage the truth to make manufacturing outside of China look completely impossible. Not impossible by any means, just requiring of a very significant, currently unjustifiable capital investment, with a return measured in decades. 4 4 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyman7 Posted May 23, 2022 Share Posted May 23, 2022 15 minutes ago, McC said: Not impossible by any means, just requiring of a very significant, currently unjustifiable capital investment, with a return measured in decades. And therefore in reality much more likely to happen if a big corporation with toy/hobby interests were to look to diversify the supply chain and take the capital risk of establishing new supply lines and skills bases. Not impossible as you say, but it's not going to make this year's (or next year's) releases appear any time sooner 🙂 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HExpressD Posted May 23, 2022 Share Posted May 23, 2022 The cost of manufacturing rising in China is hitting a lot of companies hard across a lot of industries, not just ours. Sadly the cost of manufacturing being so cheap for so long has led to a lot of companies (Understandably) 'putting all their eggs in one basket'. If China crank the price up or begin to experience severe delays there is little that companies can do without setting themselves back years in terms of output, it's a grin and bear it situation sadly. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
admiles Posted May 23, 2022 Share Posted May 23, 2022 On 21/05/2022 at 11:46, john new said: Difficult to post without being political, but some form of internationally agreed import tariff on goods from countries with low wages, no pensions, no H&S legislation, no decent affordable health care, etc., etc., would be a big start. It isn't just the industries you think of, ask anyone in Keynsham, Bournville or York about the lost confectionery works. Then again look at the way domestically our hospitality trade and shop/retail workers are shafted at home in the UK and you realise those in power appear to like it the way it is. It already exists in a certain form. It's called Anti-Dumping duty. It helps prevent cheaply made products from flooding home markets in the west. Largely introduced by the EU (for which they were round vilified by Brexit supporting factions for blocking free trade). Now the UK has left the EU nearly all Anti-Dumping duties in the UK have been abolished giving the "winning" side the "free trade" they wanted. Law of unintended consequences at work maybe? 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
admiles Posted May 23, 2022 Share Posted May 23, 2022 12 minutes ago, HExpressD said: The cost of manufacturing rising in China is hitting a lot of companies hard across a lot of industries, not just ours. Sadly the cost of manufacturing being so cheap for so long has led to a lot of companies (Understandably) 'putting all their eggs in one basket'. If China crank the price up or begin to experience severe delays there is little that companies can do without setting themselves back years in terms of output, it's a grin and bear it situation sadly. I'd also add that Mr & Mrs Joe Public have gotten very used to being able to buy many products at a certain low price point that can only (currently) be achieved by manufacturing in the Far East, India, etc. What will happen longer term as standards of living and wages rise in these manufacturing areas remains to be seen but I suspect the populous may be in for a nasty shock. I will add I'm more than happy for Far Eastern manufacturing to continue as it paid my mortgage for many years and still pays for me to order the odd model from time to time. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroborus Posted May 23, 2022 Share Posted May 23, 2022 19 hours ago, Nova Scotian said: To pretend that "trade" exists in isolation of economic, business, social and even legal concerns is the kind of pink-unicorn-on-a-two-stroke-unicycle thinking that got you the brexit you ended up with. And what the actual hell did the EU do to your personal life? I genuinely want to know. You've kind of answered your own question. The town I was raised in voted strongly for Brexit. It elected Blair under the mantra of "things can only get better", little realising that Blair was talking about himself and his friends. For that northern town, there was an influx of 'johnny foreigner' always willing to do things cheaper. Things did not get better, but they did get cheaper and that was great until long standing businesses closed down, people lost their skilled jobs and couldn't afford to buy the nice things they used to. People put two and two together and made five. The Brexit vote was their chance for their voice to be heard. So they spoke. Hope that answers your question - it wasn't an EU thing, just a general cheesed off with life and wanting someone to blame. The arguments are well rehearsed, but if you want something cheap, it generally means there was comparatively little cost in production, whether that be materials or labour. But always going after the cheaper option has the risk of putting all your eggs in one basket so that when things take a turn for the worse, as they did when the EU truck drivers returned to their former countries, or when the dash for gas resulted in an under-investment in nuclear fuels, you now find yourself paying a much higher price, even if you're able to find the thing you want. Living for the here and now is a high risk game, but sadly one which we seem unable to uncouple ourselves from. To echo a previous comment about 'doing the minimum work for the maximum pay', its very much this. Always living for the here and now, never thinking about the consequences of our actions for tomorrow. 1 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold john new Posted May 23, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 23, 2022 When I was a kid it was imported badged Empire Made. Mostly IIRC from Hong Kong whilst we still had the lease. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eldomtom2 Posted May 23, 2022 Share Posted May 23, 2022 5 hours ago, andyman7 said: And therefore in reality much more likely to happen if a big corporation with toy/hobby interests were to look to diversify the supply chain and take the capital risk of establishing new supply lines and skills bases. Not impossible as you say, but it's not going to make this year's (or next year's) releases appear any time sooner 🙂 Well that at least seems highly unlikely. Model railways do not seem to my eye to be a field you enter to make a lot of money. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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