Cambrian wagons from Cambrian kits

[Compound2632]

I thought I'd try re-posting here some questions I had about the 2-plank and 4-plank Cambrian Railways wagons represented by Cambrian Models' kits C100 and C111, re. buffer packing blocks, sheet supports, and brake gear:

 

[corneliuslundie]

I think the 2-plank wagon is based on Mike Lloyd's drawing CAM/W/2 which shows three versions. There is a note as follows:

"No. 927 built Oswestry Works 1899. Other nos 913, 938, 939. Note that the buffer guides are mounted on wood blocks . . . "

That drawing was probably done from measurements of the prototype. C C Green's "Cambrian Railways Album" has an official CR photograph of No. 927 which shows the wood blocks behind the buffers.

I assume that the 4-plank wagon was based on an Cambrian official drawing. That has the number 1815 which I think is a Cambrian number and also 71184 which I think is the GWR number. In the HMRS collection it is number 26176.  The drawing itself is undated and the HMRS website gives no date either. As so often there are no numbers on the drawing. As to date, I have no clue as the Cambrian built many 4-plank wagons over much of its lifetime, the earliest ones I know of dating from 1877 and they were still being built in 1921. However, in the December 1978 issue of Railway Modeller there is a drawing by Ken Werrett which carries the number 1014 which is confusing as this number belongs to a wagon built at Oswestry in 1917 but Ken Werrett says it was built by Pickering. Pickering built 4-plank wagons for the Cambrian in 1902 (2300-2349) but I have not identified any others.

You will have to wait a while yet for the book on the subject - probably 2024.

Jonathan

[cctransuk]

49 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

I think the 2-plank wagon is based on Mike Lloyd's drawing CAM/W/2 which shows three versions. There is a note as follows:

"No. 927 built Oswestry Works 1899. Other nos 913, 938, 939. Note that the buffer guides are mounted on wood blocks . . . "

That drawing was probably done from measurements of the prototype. C C Green's "Cambrian Railways Album" has an official CR photograph of No. 927 which shows the wood blocks behind the buffers.

I assume that the 4-plank wagon was based on an Cambrian official drawing. That has the number 1815 which I think is a Cambrian number and also 71184 which I think is the GWR number. In the HMRS collection it is number 26176.  The drawing itself is undated and the HMRS website gives no date either. As so often there are no numbers on the drawing. As to date, I have no clue as the Cambrian built many 4-plank wagons over much of its lifetime, the earliest ones I know of dating from 1877 and they were still being built in 1921. However, in the December 1978 issue of Railway Modeller there is a drawing by Ken Werrett which carries the number 1014 which is confusing as this number belongs to a wagon built at Oswestry in 1917 but Ken Werrett says it was built by Pickering. Pickering built 4-plank wagons for the Cambrian in 1902 (2300-2349) but I have not identified any others.

You will have to wait a while yet for the book on the subject - probably 2024.

Jonathan

 

I am loathe to have to say this, but - beware of Ken Werrett drawings!

 

I'm afraid that they cannot be relied upon for accuracy - even when it comes to such basic measurements as wheelbase and overall length.

 

CJI.

[Compound2632]

28 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

You will have to wait a while yet for the book on the subject - probably 2024.

 

Many thanks - I was hoping this post would attract your notice! The rate I actually finish wagons, 2024 isn't so far off...

 

The notes with the instructions give some numbering details. For the 2-plank this is quite extensive: 197, 327, 431, 927, 963, 1597, 1602, 1656. 1711, 1720, 1993-2042 (built 1896), 2062, 2350-83, 2384, 2385-99 (2350-99 built 1904). For the 4-plank, only two numbers are given: 438, 1014.

 

Can you comment on the brake gear? The kit has just a single V-hanger, so there's either another support for the brake shaft attached to the rear of the solebar or behind the tumbler.

 

Also, I'm keen to know how early sheet supports were fitted, particularly to 4-plank wagons, having in mind my c. 1902 date.

 

1 hour ago, cctransuk said:

I am loathe to have to say this, but - beware of Ken Werrett drawings!

 

I'm afraid that they cannot be relied upon for accuracy - even when it comes to such basic measurements as wheelbase and overall length.

 

indeed, they are something of an enigma.

[corneliuslundie]

Stephen, you will shortly have a PM

Jonathan

[BR traction instructor]

…probably lost in the mists of other Cambrian threads but what happened to the proposed limestone skip wagon from the Peak District?

 

BeRTIe

Edited May 18, 2022 by BR traction instructor

[Compound2632]

11 minutes ago, BR traction instructor said:

…probably lost in the mists of other Cambrian threads but what happened to the proposed limestone skip wagon from the Peak District?

 

if you are asking about a proposed kit from Cambrian Models, that question would probably be more at home in Small Suppliers, since this topic is more to do with Cambrian Railways wagons than with Cambrian Models wagons; it's incidental that the models of the former I am building are from kits produced by the latter but it made for a neat topic title.

Edited May 18, 2022 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

30 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

Stephen, you will shortly have a PM

 

Thank you; the drawing closely resembles my 4-plank wagon. Dates to numbers is useful too, since it would be fatally easy to use a post-1902 number!

 

Another question - I'm picking up from the notes with the instructions and elsewhere that the light grey livery with black ironwork and CAM (f-d-l) RYS lettering only dates from 1899 and before that the livery was a plain darker grey with no company lettering? That would fit with the general trend towards bolder company lettering on wagons in the early 20th century. 

[BR traction instructor]

…apologies, I’ll head for Cambrian the manufacturer.

 

BeRTIe

[Steamport Southport]

Buffers and brake gear?

 

Try 51L/Wizard who also does a 2 plank dropside wagon.

 

Click on the instructions here, it might give some further info.

 

https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/wagons/cmrdlsg/

 

 

Jason

 

 

Edited May 18, 2022 by Steamport Southport

[Compound2632]

5 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

Buffers and brake gear?

 

Try 51L/Wizard who also does a 2 plank dropside wagon.

 

I'm sorry, Jason, you misunderstand. My questions are about the buffers and brake gear on this particular prototype. The kit provides a single V-hanger on the outside of the solebar; there must be an additional support for the brake shaft; this might either be a second V-hanger on the rear face of the solebar or a strut behind the tumbler, or possibly some other arrangement, but I don't know which. If I knew what it looks like, the missing piece can be straightfowardly represented from bits in the spares tray or fabricated from plasticard. As to the buffers, the question is from what date the packing pieces (supplied in the kit) were fitted between the buffer guide and headstock. Perhaps if I post here a photo of the wagons so far, from the post linked in my OP:

 

 

The turned steel 12" buffer heads I will be using in place of the plastic ones supplied in the kit are from Wizard.

[corneliuslundie]

I am afraid that dating changes to Cambrian designs is a nightmare as very few extant drawings are dated. Worse, there seem to have been frequent minor updates to designs from year to year. I have four drawings for essentially identical Cambrian single ended outside-framed brake vans. The only significant change is the length and wheelbase between the first two and the second two, but there are minor tweaks each time. Other evidence suggests that they were all produced in a period of less than ten years. Since the Cambrian built batches of 2-plank dropside wagons most years you can imagine how many subtle variants there may be.

And of course did the workshops actually follow the drawings exactly anyway?

Re livery, yes the earliest examples of outside framing being painted black seem to be about the turn of the century, though one has to be careful as most of the photos I have seen from that period are official photos of vans (eg Oswestry built No. 951 of 1904) rather than opens. The photo of open No. 927 dated apparently 1899 has black ironwork but grey timber end stanchions. An interesting exception is the 1886 cattle wagons supplied by the Midland Wagon Co which were both an unusual design and had black painted framing.

That was also about the time when wagons started to get the company name and wagon number on the sides. No. 927 has it only on the ends but No. 2399 of 1902 has it on the sides. Earlier still it had only been on the numberplate (see GWW page 228).

So if you are modelling in 1902 you will not be needing many Camkits transfers for the Cambrian.

GWW doesn't mention a change in the shade of grey used.

I hope you are now as confused as me!

Jonathan

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

I hope you are now as confused as me!

 

No, I'm feeling better informed, since I am only scratching the surface of the subject rather than digging deep as you are!

 

At least I think it must be a reasonable assumption that wagon sheets for c. 1902 would be of this pattern with the CAM (f-d-l) RYS lettering, since sheets were on a 15-21 month turn-over so would all have received a new style introduced in 1899 by 1902. 

[corneliuslundie]

I have nothing which says anything about sheets  exceptin red or blue. GWW which says: "Early wagon tarpaulins are believed to have been  lettered "CAMBRIAN RAILWAY" and numbered. In the 1890s the title was expressed in the plural and several styles of sheet are known. On the first version the company title was expressed in large letters with serifs with the sheet number placed centrally below the title. The plume was set to the left of the sheet number with a circlet containing another number to the right. The circlet may have consisted of the words "CAMBRIAN RAILWAYS COMPANY". In a variation of this style the circlet was replaced by a number. On a third version, the plume was set on either side of the number together with a cross . But that may all refer to earlier than 1902.

So not really much help. I'll male enquiries, but off to model railway club now.

Jonathan

[ChrisN]

Would a list of Cambrian wagons be helpful?

 

Cam. Wagon List.pdf

 

Notes on Cambrian Livery?

 

Cambrian Wagon Livery.pdf

 

These were sent to me a while ago, by someone but I cannot remember who.

 

I am not up to speed with wagons as they are next years project.  (Next year being TY +1, TY = current year.  So you see it has been next years projcet for a while.)

 

I have/did have/ will have a picture from about 1870of a two plank with solid sides.  I do not appear to have downloaded it, but I shall keep looking.

 

However, this may be of some use:-

 

I think this shows what you want on the brake gear, and the buffers.  Again, donated to my thread by S.O.M. Body.

 

[Compound2632]

Thanks Chris. At least that photo confirms a second V-hanger behind the solebar, at least by the turn of the century. I will study the list!

[Dave John]

I would say nice white tires, but I'd better not ....... 

[Regularity]

“Should I get a set of white wall tires?” - Billy Joel.

[corneliuslundie]

No. 2399 was a 1902 Pickering wagon. AFAIK one of the first with the CAM RYS livery. I think the photo is probably a Pickering official.

I am keeping out of the white tyre debate!

The only 1870s photo I know of is one Alan Rhodes owns of Aberdovey harbour. You will have to wait for the first Cambrian drawings book to be published to see that.

If anyone knows any other I shall be pleased to hear.

Jonathan

[NCB]

Re livery, here's a couple of 2-plank fixed side wagons in 3mm/ft scale

Own transfers and chasses, Coast Line models bodies, double brake hangers. Also more wagons

Scratch built brake van and 2p drop side wagon, Coast Line coal wagon body.

 

My feeling is that the grey is more medium than light; I used Precision LNER wagon grey. Some solebars have ironwork picked out in black, most don't.

 

Nigel

[Compound2632]

47 minutes ago, NCB said:

Re livery,

 

The CAM (f-d-l) RYS livery is very attractive but for me the question is, what proportion of the wagon fleet would have received it by the summer of 1902? I'm tempted to do one with and one without, or both without if I'm feeling too mean to fork out for transfers!

[Regularity]

The one which might be fairly clean.

Edited May 25, 2022 by Regularity

[Cwmtwrch]

On 19/05/2022 at 08:58, Compound2632 said:

At least I think it must be a reasonable assumption that wagon sheets for c. 1902 would be of this pattern with the CAM (f-d-l) RYS lettering, since sheets were on a 15-21 month turn-over so would all have received a new style introduced in 1899 by 1902. 

According to Messrs Cross and Essery writing in HMRS Journal Vol. 16, No. 6, Cambrian Railways sheets of your era looked nothing like the Smith offering, which doesn't altogether surprise me. They show a black sheet with four equally spaced lengthways lines, with "Cambrian Railways" in a seriffed font centrally and touching the line nearer to the edge. Centrally placed below the line, in both directions, are [L to R, in different sizes] the feathers, the number and the issue date, which tallies pretty well with corneliuslundie's description. The stripes are identified in an accompanying table as red and blue, but which way round is not stated.

 

In BR days, with the same technology, recall dates could be from 12 months to almost 5 years after the issue date; there was, of course, a wide variation in the periods before return, which presumably reduced each time the sheet was reproofed.

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, Cwmtwrch said:

According to Messrs Cross and Essery writing in HMRS Journal Vol. 16, No. 6, Cambrian Railways sheets of your era looked nothing like the Smith offering, which doesn't altogether surprise me. They show a black sheet with four equally spaced lengthways lines, with "Cambrian Railways" in a seriffed font centrally and touching the line nearer to the edge. Centrally placed below the line, in both directions, are [L to R, in different sizes] the feathers, the number and the issue date, which tallies pretty well with corneliuslundie's description. The stripes are identified in an accompanying table as red and blue, but which way round is not stated.

 

I read the four equally spaced lengthways lines as representing the four seams - sheets being made from five strips of yard-wide canvas.

 

I'm not surprised to be told the Roger Smith sheet is wrong; they often are.

[corneliuslundie]

I can’t post it but I have been sent a photo of some Cambrian wagons. One has a single wooden brake block and a tarpaulin with CAMBRIAN RAILWAYS (note S) is serif letters and, from left to right below, the fleur-de-lys, the number in serif numerals and the roundel as described in GWW.

A second wagon, also with a single wooden brake block, has a tarpaulin with the number and roundel but the words and fleur-de-lys are out of sight.

I mention the word RAILWAYS with an S as in earlier years many Cambrian documents etc had it without, though by about 1890 RAILWAYS certainly the norm, and almost certainly earlier. I need to check more drawings to see if I can pin down a date.

Jonathan