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Transit of specialised wagonload freight between pre-grouping railway companies


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Supposing (because this example is useful to me) someone in the East of England ordered up a motor car from a supplier in Bristol in around 1910. A journey beginning with the Great Western Railway and ending with the Great Eastern Railway.

 

Might we expect the motor car to travel on the same wagon throughout its journey?

 

I am looking for excuses to include a better variety of wagons on my layout. Maybe some loads were transhipped part way on their journeys, and others were not.

 

Many thanks.

 

- Richard.

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I believe that he GWR had .some dual braked Carriage trucks so provided they were in-gauge on the GER  (and of course anywhere in between) there'd be mo problem working though although the vehocle would have to be immediately returned empty to the GWR.  And some of the the umpteen hundreds of Clerks at the RCH would be gainfully employed working out what part of the receipts went to each Company over whose lines the vehicle travelled on its loaded journey. 

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9 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

I believe that he GWR had .some dual braked Carriage trucks so provided they were in-gauge on the GER  (and of course anywhere in between) there'd be mo problem working though although the vehocle would have to be immediately returned empty to the GWR.  And some of the the umpteen hundreds of Clerks at the RCH would be gainfully employed working out what part of the receipts went to each Company over whose lines the vehicle travelled on its loaded journey. 

 

Hi Mike.

 

I was rather thinking of the GWR Hydra wagon to diagram G19 when I made my post, because Connoisseur Models do a kit. And I want to try building one of these for my layout set in the middle of Essex, a fictional railway connected to GER metals.

 

So it sounds as though such a wagon could make an appearance on my layout from time to time, suitably loaded and to be returned empty and promptly.

 

- Richard.

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8 hours ago, 47137 said:

Might we expect the motor car to travel on the same wagon throughout its journey?

 

I am looking for excuses to include a better variety of wagons on my layout. Maybe some loads were transhipped part way on their journeys, and others were not.

Yes, and that applies to virtually everything. Transhipment between different companies wagons died out with the end of the broad gauge as far as the main line railway network was concerned. Transhipment, or more properly consolidation, did occur at certain locations as a means of making more economic use of wagons by combining the loads from lightly loaded wagons into a smaller number of fully loaded ones.

7 hours ago, 47137 said:

I was rather thinking of the GWR Hydra wagon to diagram G19 when I made my post, because Connoisseur Models do a kit. And I want to try building one of these for my layout set in the middle of Essex, a fictional railway connected to GER metals.

An unlikely wagon to be used for motor car wagon, being a more specialist wagon for higher vehicles. The most likely candidate for shipping a motor car would have been one of the covered or open carriage trucks - the GWR's Pythons and Scorpions.

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, 47137 said:

Supposing (because this example is useful to me) someone in the East of England ordered up a motor car from a supplier in Bristol in around 1910. A journey beginning with the Great Western Railway and ending with the Great Eastern Railway.

 

By the way, from Bristol, an equally probable route would be via the Midland Railway, passing on to the Great Eastern at Peterborough. Anyway, was there any motor car manufacture in Bristol before the Great War? What is possible is that the coachwork of a vehicle was constructed by a Bristol firm on a chassis from Birmingham or Coventry - perhaps a Lea-Francis, or a Rolls-Royce from Derby; that makes the Midland route more probable. 

 

As @jim.snowdon says, a carriage truck would be the most likely vehicle, at least for the completed motor car. The chassis might travel on an ordinary long low sided wagon - it's no a heavy load by any means - and would undoubtedly be sheeted over. The complete vehicle would travel in a covered carriage truck (by passenger train) or motor car van (by passenger or goods train). Some motor car body builders had railway company covered carriage trucks painted up with their company name and dedicated to their traffic, though the railway company reserved the right to use it for other customers if it wasn't needed by that firm:

 

9127.jpg

 

[Embedded link to NRM DY 9127.]

 

What you really wouldn't see is a motor car on a wagon in full view and exposed to the elements - that's a modelling trope based on the sort of thing that happened very occasionally in the dying days of the traditional railway. It's a very high-value item.

 

If you are looking for a load for your Hydra, perhaps a piece of agricultural machinery or traction engine would be more appropriate? There were several major manufacturers in the area served by the Great Eastern; but would a Great Western wagon have been sent to collect for a customer in Great Western territory?

 

Excuse my insomniacal ramblings.

Edited by Compound2632
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Posted (edited)

This list of traction engine manufacturers suggests there wasn’t much trade of traction engines coming out of GWR territory, but perhaps a used machine might have been sold and transported into GER territory? I agree that something agricultural seems more plausible on a Hydra than a motor car, although even then an unfitted Loriot in a goods working feels more probable.

 

I guess the small number of Hydras built is an indicator of the limited traffic that required this type of vehicle.

 

Nick.

Edited by magmouse
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I think I need to separate the "car" and the "inter-company working".

 

The car could be an imported one, perhaps being purchased secondhand and moved by rail to its new owner. I have a model Renault AX of 1908. I accept (a bit reluctantly) that while a veteran car on a lowmac style wagon might make for a bit of spectacle on the layout it wouldn't have a likely prototype. A car sheeted over would be easier to make if rather anonymous. The model car might be better simply posed on the ground not on a wagon.

 

The modelling of inter-company workings is helpful because I am only just setting out in building wagons from kits (eight built so far) and this widens the range of kits for me to try. I have ordered up the Hydra, and whilst a bit out of place it will help me to planning and run a layout until I can make something a bit more suitable.

 

The load could be an item of industrial machinery or foundry equipment. This would fit with the setting of the layout, which features E H Bentall of Heybridge, agricultural engineers and one of Britain's earliest car builders. They operated a small foundry. Such a load would be easier to build than a traction engine, and I could claim the item had come from somewhere in GWR territory. To justify the use of the Hydra.

 

I want to study the whole article on 'foreign' wagons but I am still on page 1. I would have never found this article, if I had seen the title in passing I would have guessed it was about ferry wagons :-)

 

- Richard.

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3 hours ago, 47137 said:

The load could be an item of industrial machinery or foundry equipment. This would fit with the setting of the layout, which features E H Bentall of Heybridge, agricultural engineers and one of Britain's earliest car builders. They operated a small foundry. Such a load would be easier to build than a traction engine, and I could claim the item had come from somewhere in GWR territory. To justify the use of the Hydra.

 

I looked up E H Bentall - very interesting history. I'm not that well up on GWR special wagons but having looked at a photo of the Hydra kit, similar-looking Midland vehicles were designed to carry 15 or 18 tons, so I'm a bit surprised to see that rated for only 6 tons - perhaps the framing wasn't as deep. But I can well imagine that piece of industrial machinery could be within that weight limit and bulky enough to be out of gauge on an ordinary wagon.

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7 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

If you are looking for a load for your Hydra, perhaps a piece of agricultural machinery or traction engine would be more appropriate?

Or a covered horse or motor van - tall enough to warrant the use of a wagon with a well deck. There are certainly photographs of horse drawn delivery vans loaded on such wagons.

 

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11 minutes ago, jim.snowdon said:

Or a covered horse or motor van - tall enough to warrant the use of a wagon with a well deck. There are certainly photographs of horse drawn delivery vans loaded on such wagons.

 

1447.jpg

 

"Canadian Produce Van" awaiting unloading or having just been loaded, at the 1906 Royal Derby Show. the wagon is one of a small number of 15 ton trolleys built in the 1880s specifically for the conveyance of tram engines - Kitsons of Leeds being a major builder of such things at that time [Embedded link to NRM DY 1447].

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34 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

"Canadian Produce Van" awaiting unloading or having just been loaded, at the 1906 Royal Derby Show. the wagon is one of a small number of 15 ton trolleys built in the 1880s specifically for the conveyance of tram engines - Kitsons of Leeds being a major builder of such things at that time [Embedded link to NRM DY 1447].

 

And, in the picture, beyond the iron Mink, a Hydra or Loriot or something similar, with a traction engine... 🙂

 

Nick.

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...so perhaps you have an agricultural show happening in your GER location, and a vehicle of some kind is being delivered for that - originating  in GWR territory and for some reason a rush job, requiring it to come via passenger trains on a fitted Hydra.

 

Nick.

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Agricultural shows were and still are big business.

 

A lot depends on the type of farms, size, what they are doing etc as to what they might need and where they might source it from. Seasonality also matters as there will be busier periods where labour and machinery would be hired in. Large estate type farms are going to be more mechanised than smaller farms (Although they too would be becoming increasingly mechanised).

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1 hour ago, magmouse said:

 

And, in the picture, beyond the iron Mink, a Hydra or Loriot or something similar, with a traction engine... 🙂

 

Yes, I think probably the Midland equivalent:

 

1448.jpg

 

{Embedded link to NRM DY 1448]

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21 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Yes, I think probably the Midland equivalent:

 

1448.jpg

 

{Embedded link to NRM DY 1448]

 

Great to see the unloading (or loading) process in this picture. And the wagon behind, wit its sheet covering a pointy something at the near end and a more rounded, lumpy something at the other end - who would be brave enough to model such a thing? My planned wagon roster includes several with sheets, and I want to do at least one with the visible form of some kind of load underneath, by I don't think I will be going as extreme as this.

 

Nick.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Yes, I think probably the Midland equivalent:

 

1448.jpg

 

{Embedded link to NRM DY 1448]

For my Highbridge Wharf diorama, I have made or converted three lowmac type wagons to approximate MR diagrams. The reason - there is a photo of eight new Babcock and Wilcox steam rollers being delivered to the wharf, for the local road building and maintenance firm, W.W. Buncombe. At one time they had 150 rollers working up and down the country. I have the rollers - slightly modified Aveling & Porter ones from Hales kits. I have the almost completed wagons. I am now working on how to replicate the lashings that held the machines steady in transit. They were lashed around the front roller's pivot - the hump where the badge is on the roller above - and down to the buffers, with multiple ropes. The front rollers and back wheel rollers were chocked with wood wedges. The rear fixings are not visible. I would guess that the towing eye and the other pair of buffers would have been used. I don't want to fix the rollers down permanently. I often get to this point with a model and go and find something easier to do. I will get there - I have some suitable thread and assorted glue to hold the harnesses together.

As there doesn't seem to have been an end loading dock on the Wharf, I am not sure how they got the rollers off the wagons - possibly steered off the edge onto a timber ramp. It was next to Bland's timber yard.

Edited by phil_sutters
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12 hours ago, 47137 said:

This would fit with the setting of the layout, which features E H Bentall of Heybridge, agricultural engineers and one of Britain's earliest car builders.


Do you have a layout thread? My wife is from Heybridge and her father was an apprentice at Bentalls

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Titanius Anglesmith said:


Do you have a layout thread? My wife is from Heybridge and her father was an apprentice at Bentalls

Afraid not. I am writing the history and building the stock before I build a layout. I think this will help me build a better layout. The history (which depicts a fictional railway set in a real location) is evolving as new details come to light. At the moment I am imagining modelling the railway as it was in 1893, a few years after it opened, in 1908, when the Bentall's car production was underway, and 1913, when the line was lifted.

 

My connection with Heybridge is, I had a contract for engineering work there about 15 years ago and nowadays I do voluntary work there. My main sources are the book by the late Beryl Claydon, "In and Around Heybridge in the Nineteenth and Twentieth Centuries" and Grace's Guide. I "missed" Bentalls - they had closed before I visited the town. I have no photographs of the back of the works beside the navigation, and so I may end up improvising something completely imaginery, with a representation of the four-storey warehouse (this is going to be turned into flats) to close off the end of the model.

 

- Richard.

Edited by 47137
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13 hours ago, magmouse said:

...so perhaps you have an agricultural show happening in your GER location, and a vehicle of some kind is being delivered for that - originating  in GWR territory and for some reason a rush job, requiring it to come via passenger trains on a fitted Hydra.

 

Nick.

 

12 hours ago, Morello Cherry said:

Agricultural shows were and still are big business.

 

A lot depends on the type of farms, size, what they are doing etc as to what they might need and where they might source it from. Seasonality also matters as there will be busier periods where labour and machinery would be hired in. Large estate type farms are going to be more mechanised than smaller farms (Although they too would be becoming increasingly mechanised).

 

A local agricultural show sounds a marvellous idea. Thanks.

 

I can set the show in 1908, when the Hydra was brand new.

 

- Richard.

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An agricultural show in your GER area will have had ploughing engines sent by rail from Leeds as both Fowlers and McLaren won various prizes at shows in your area.  This would bring in products loaded and sent down the Midland.  I have seen a photo of a full train of Fowlers on wagons ready to leave the Midland yard that was next to the works.

Think that some of these shows also displayed rollers as it was a good gathering for many who were interested in the products.

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28 minutes ago, AMJ said:

An agricultural show in your GER area will have had ploughing engines sent by rail from Leeds as both Fowlers and McLaren won various prizes at shows in your area.  This would bring in products loaded and sent down the Midland.  I have seen a photo of a full train of Fowlers on wagons ready to leave the Midland yard that was next to the works.

Think that some of these shows also displayed rollers as it was a good gathering for many who were interested in the products.

 

A ploughing engine would set the scene nicely, it would be more specific than a traction engine.

 

Perhaps a specimen of an engine for shows had been moved from GWR territory to central Essex ... I could start to look for a 7mm kit.

 

- Richard.

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On 19/05/2022 at 04:10, Compound2632 said:

What you really wouldn't see is a motor car on a wagon in full view and exposed to the elements...

Possibly with reference to new cars.  I was recently given copies of a set of photos from (I think) 1927 showing a family on holiday in Scotland loading their vehicle onto an OCT and then (posed, I assume) 'pushing' it out of the dock siding for collection by the next service (which was also shown).     I think the odd one would be permissible.

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Just now, jwealleans said:

Possibly with reference to new cars.  I was recently given copies of a set of photos from (I think) 1927 showing a family on holiday in Scotland loading their vehicle onto an OCT and then (posed, I assume) 'pushing' it out of the dock siding for collection by the next service (which was also shown).     I think the odd one would be permissible.

 

A passenger-rated vehicle (the OCT that is, not the family car) by passenger train, presumably?

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