Transit of specialised wagonload freight between pre-grouping railway companies before 1916

[Morello Cherry]

44 minutes ago, 47137 said:

 

A ploughing engine would set the scene nicely, it would be more specific than a traction engine.

 

Perhaps a specimen of an engine for shows had been moved from GWR territory to central Essex ... I could start to look for a 7mm kit.

 

- Richard.

 

Other equipment could be threshing, sowing or harvesting (depending on what your crops were).

 

You might be interested in this:

https://www.fwi.co.uk/machinery/tractors/machinery-milestones-the-worlds-first-tractors

 

A little way down we have a very public demonstration of the Ivel tractor in 1905.

 

So you could have your very early tractor being transported to 'demonstrate' its prowess to local land owners.

 

It is worth noting that the 1911 Royal Agricultural Show was held at Crown Point. And that there is mention of an early tractor being demonstrated at the 1903 Royal Show and it failing.

 

Another reference says that around 1900 there were 160 tractor manufacturers.

 

In the early 1900s, more than 160 tractor companies, with names like Agrimotor, Ajax, Big Bud, Dragon, John Blue and Kitten, sold their machines around the world to meet the growing demand for mechanization. Hundreds more sold plows, pickers and other farm implements.

 

As early as 1930, through attrition and industry consolidation, only 7 full-line farm equipment companies remained: John Deere, International Harvester, Case, Oliver, Allis-Chalmers, Minneapolis-Moline and Massey-Harris.

 

https://www.farm-equipment.com/articles/15962-manufacturer-consolidation-reshaping-the-farm-equipment-marketplace

 

Agrimotor were Saffron Waldon and we have this little bit of information here (I can't paste the link because it is straight to a pdf):

These motor-ploughs participated successfully in the two-day trials held near Bury St Edmunds in 1914. They were also shown at the Royal Agricultural Society show held at Shrewsbury in that same year.

 

So you have an example of machinery going from GER to GWR territory for a show.

 

It is also worth noting that many tractor makers were American, and they were exporting their tractors to the UK. So you could also have a tractor that might have been imported via Bristol for example and then shipped to Suffolk.

 

Also, do you remember a few years back there was the 'Edwardian Farm' series on TV. They tried and tested a whole series of new machinery that was available then, so this might give you some alternative loads being shipped for demonstration.

[Michael Hodgson]

18 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

 

"Canadian Produce Van" awaiting unloading or having just been loaded, at the 1906 Royal Derby Show. the wagon is one of a small number of 15 ton trolleys built in the 1880s specifically for the conveyance of tram engines - Kitsons of Leeds being a major builder of such things at that time [Embedded link to NRM DY 1447].

It looks out of gauge, but I suppose it's the height of the Mink that is fooling me.

Where are the load's wheels - underneath its chassis?  inside? separate wagon?

The method of roping in interesting - first time I've seen holes in a wagon floor for it.

[Michael Hodgson]

16 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Yes, I think probably the Midland equivalent:

 

 

{Embedded link to NRM DY 1448]

 

Running under its own power, so would it have had a problem with the water level at the top of its firebox, inclined at that angle if it had needed to reverse off the other end of the wagon?

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

The method of roping in interesting - first time I've seen holes in a wagon floor for it.

 

The floor extended to a width of 8' 6" but the width over the frames was 6' 0". A load would need to be secured to the frames rather than the relatively flimsy curb iron, hence the holes. 

[Morello Cherry]

Although this is after your time period. I thought it might be of interest. There are some photos from the Three Counties Show held at Great Malvern in 1961.

 

They include Horse Boxes from the Southern and a vehicle on a flat wagon. Again suggesting inter-regional travel for agricultural shows.

 

http://malvernrailway.blogspot.com/2016/01/great-malvern-station.html

 

 

[hmrspaul]

1 hour ago, Morello Cherry said:

Although this is after your time period. I thought it might be of interest. There are some photos from the Three Counties Show held at Great Malvern in 1961.

 

They include Horse Boxes from the Southern and a vehicle on a flat wagon. Again suggesting inter-regional travel for agricultural shows.

 

http://malvernrailway.blogspot.com/2016/01/great-malvern-station.html

 

OT  Interesting use of a Conflat D, Loading with a stagecoach and running during the diesel period would confuse the exhibition crown 😀 The BR horsebox helps to date the photo. https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/srconflat

 

Paul

[47137]

The use of rope and not chain here to tie down a customer's vehicle is useful for many periods.

 

- Richard.

[The Stationmaster]

22 hours ago, 47137 said:

The use of rope and not chain here to tie down a customer's vehicle is useful for many periods.

 

- Richard.

Although it wouldn't apply with that coach cars moved by freight train as individual consignments were bormally roped with strawbags place on the vehicle to avoid the roping damaging paintwork etc.  But I don't know how far back that practice went.

[Nearholmer]

Motor cars normally went by CCT at this period, being ruddy expensive things that were easy to damage. I’m pretty sure that even chassis, which were moved about a lot from “motor factories” to coach builders, also went by CCT. Doubtless there were exceptions, but they would be exceptional.

 

A proper, full-on agricultural show would allow a mass of interesting loads, not just wheeled vehicles, things like stationary engines, dynamos, milking machines, etc. 

 

The real biggie was The Royal Show, which was at Norwich, Crown Point in 1911.

 

“The outstanding feature of the self-propelled vehicle and tractor exhibits is the large entry of agricultural motors and tractors which are propelled by internal-combustion engines. This year, there are no fewer than 13 machines, shown by eight makers, and, in addition, there is a petrol-propelled Daimler road train, which must be counted as being in a class apart from either tractor ot wagon exhibits.”

The Daimler Road Train was a fascinating thing, designed by Ferdinand Porsche. Not sure what stage it had developed to by 1911, but it matured to become a “generator tractor”, behind which came a string of wagons, each with a traction motor, all cables together. It was designed to be bi-modal, by taking the tyres off it ran on standard gauge rails, and I’ve seen pictures of it trundling up and down a siding at a German agricultural show. They were used during WW1 as logistics support by the Austrian-Hungarian military and one of the guys who worked on them went on to found a railway locomotive factory (Gebus) and designed the transmission system for the DE version of the Flying Hamburger trains.

 

Here is a write-up on the military ones, although the history given start several years too late - the bogie loco shown in one of the pictures was earlier than 1913, 1910 I think, and seems to have wheel-hub motors like Porsche’s earlier motor cars - it almost looks as if they’ve cobbled it together from car parts. https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landwehr-Train

 

Edited May 29, 2022 by Nearholmer

[Compound2632]

13 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Motor cars normally went by CCT at this period, being ruddy expensive things that were easy to damage. I’m pretty sure that even chassis, which were moved about a lot from “motor factories” to coach builders, also went by CCT. Doubtless there were exceptions, but they would be exceptional.

 

I think you are right that complete motor cars would have travelled by CCT but there's good evidence for chassis being transported from the motor manufacturer to the coachbuilder by ordinary low-side open wagon - e.g. the Daimler chassis loaded on Midland dropside wagons featured on my wagon-building thread recently:

or the Rolls-Royce chassis being loaded onto a long low-side wagon at Derby, R.J. Essery, Midland Wagons Vol. 1 Plate 150. Admittedly in the same volume we find another Rolls-Royce chassis being loaded into a motor car van - a goods-rated CCT specifically built for the traffic.

[Nearholmer]

The 1911 Royal Show merits an entire layout!

 

https://www.gersociety.org.uk/index.php/gallery/royal-agricultural-show

[Nearholmer]

Ah, I may have misled!

 

The Daimler Road Train at Norwich may not have been the Austro-Daimler petrol-electric version, but the Anglo-French Daimler-Renard. Similar, but not quite as clever or successful, this one use cardan shafts to transmit power mechanically to the driven trailers, and I don’t think it made it onto rails.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 29, 2022 by Nearholmer

[Morello Cherry]

The GER society has some material on the GER and the 1911 show in Norwich and reference to a couple of articles.

 

https://www.gersociety.org.uk/index.php/gallery/royal-agricultural-show

[47137]

6 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Motor cars normally went by CCT at this period, being ruddy expensive things that were easy to damage. I’m pretty sure that even chassis, which were moved about a lot from “motor factories” to coach builders, also went by CCT. Doubtless there were exceptions, but they would be exceptional.

I am thinking to myself (and writing out loud here), there must have been a brief period at the beginning of the age of the car, when the roads were too poor to allow long-distance deliveries and the traffic was too new for the railways to have suitable CCTs. A time when car importers as well as manufacturers needed to move cars by rail, and had to use whatever wagons the railway already had. This would tally with the Daimlers in the 3-plank wagons above.

 

- Richard.

[47137]

5 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

The 1911 Royal Show merits an entire layout!

 

https://www.gersociety.org.uk/index.php/gallery/royal-agricultural-show

 

Imagine building a simple branch line layout on an 8 x 4 sheet of board, with the railway on the diagonal and the show set out beside it.

 

- Richard.

[Nearholmer]

19 minutes ago, 47137 said:

This would tally with the Daimlers in the 3-plank wagons above.

Daimler chassis, I think was what was said, not entire cars, but you are right, the railways had to get a move on to create sufficient vehicles of the right type to cater for the emerging traffic. I think, but am sure I will be corrected if I’m wrong, that CCT pre-dated motor cars, but they surely weren’t a common vehicle.

 

“According to an early LNWR diagram book there were about 140 CCT’s, of various lengths, in service around the end of the 19th century”

 

Edited May 29, 2022 by Nearholmer

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, 47137 said:

I am thinking to myself (and writing out loud here), there must have been a brief period at the beginning of the age of the car, when the roads were too poor to allow long-distance deliveries and the traffic was too new for the railways to have suitable CCTs. A time when car importers as well as manufacturers needed to move cars by rail, and had to use whatever wagons the railway already had. This would tally with the Daimlers in the 3-plank wagons above.

 

I think there's something in that. In the first few years, the motor manufacturers just built the chassis, which then went to a coachbuilder for coachwork to the customer's specification.

 

Taking the Midland, for which I have the numbers to hand, by the end of the 19th century it had a stock of about 72 covered carriage trucks - passenger-rated vehicles. There were a larger number of passenger-rated open carriage trucks; one paid extra for a CCT. They were used by private individuals taking their carriage with them when moving between town and country, or between country houses, but a large part of the business was delivery of high-value road vehicles from the coachbuilders; some firms paid the difference between the cost of a CCT and an OCT and in return got their name on the side, and had first call on the vehicle - this continued into the early 20th century, with a number of coachbuilding firms that had moved into the motor car coachwork business.

 

However, between 1904 and 1914, the company built 146 motor car vans - much the same as CCTs but goods rather than passenger stock. These were clearly for traffic from motor manufacturers / coachbuilders, not for individual private hire.

[Nearholmer]

In 1900 there were only 700-800 cars in Britain, so at that date not many CCT would have been needed to cater for moving them about. The traffic in horse drawn carriages must still have been demanding most of the relevant rail vehicles. The motor industry took off very quickly thereafter though; there were c23 000 by 1904, and c100 000 of the blasted things in Britain by 1910.

 

 

Edited May 29, 2022 by Nearholmer

[Morello Cherry]

On 20/05/2022 at 08:38, 47137 said:

 

 

A local agricultural show sounds a marvellous idea. Thanks.

 

I can set the show in 1908, when the Hydra was brand new.

 

- Richard.

 

I just came across something that raises some more modelling ideas. I came across some Midland Railway Posters advertising special excursions for the 1903 Royal Agricultural Show which was held at Park Royal (which to the best of my knowledge wasn't on the MR). So the evidence clearly suggests that they generated passenger traffic from across the country. This would give you an excuse to model potential excursions to your agricultural show - if not from the whole country but certainly surrounding regions.

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, Morello Cherry said:

 

I just came across something that raises some more modelling ideas. I came across some Midland Railway Posters advertising special excursions for the 1903 Royal Agricultural Show which was held at Park Royal (which to the best of my knowledge wasn't on the MR). So the evidence clearly suggests that they generated passenger traffic from across the country. This would give you an excuse to model potential excursions to your agricultural show - if not from the whole country but certainly surrounding regions.

 

There was certainly a lot of interesting traffic generated by such shows; here's a couple of Derby official photos of traffic at the Royal Derby Show in 1906, for which the railway had laid in temporary sidings:

 

 

[Embedded link to DY1445 and DY1446, Midland dock, unloading traffic.]

 

One of those interesting Great Western horseboxes with platform just behind the engine, in the second photo. There was clearly livestock exhibits coming from far and wide. What's the vehicle with the clerestoriette in the first photo?

[jim.snowdon]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

What's the vehicle with the clerestoriette in the first photo?

Not certain, but as it has passenger alarm gear, and from what little is visible of the side, I would suspect a Prize (or Special) Cattle Van. It looks to have outside framed sides. It is possible that the mini-clerestory is a water tank.

[Compound2632]

9 minutes ago, jim.snowdon said:

Not certain, but as it has passenger alarm gear, and from what little is visible of the side, I would suspect a Prize (or Special) Cattle Van. It looks to have outside framed sides. It is possible that the mini-clerestory is a water tank.

 

And indeed in both those photos, the majority of stock on view is passenger rated - horseboxes and the like. In the second photo, there's a cattle wagon in a line of horseboxes - I should think that it is at least piped.

 

Note also the use of wind power - quite possibly for generating electricity. Really, we've gone a long way backwards before moving forwards.

Edited July 31, 2022 by Compound2632

[Nearholmer]

39 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

quite possibly for generating electricity.

More likely for pumping water round the site, or up from a well, but your point is well made (like the water).

[phil_sutters]

5 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

There was certainly a lot of interesting traffic generated by such shows; here's a couple of Derby official photos of traffic at the Royal Derby Show in 1906, for which the railway had laid in temporary sidings:

 

 

[Embedded link to DY1445 and DY1446, Midland dock, unloading traffic.]

 

One of those interesting Great Western horseboxes with platform just behind the engine, in the second photo. There was clearly livestock exhibits coming from far and wide. What's the vehicle with the clerestoriette in the first photo?

Could it be one of these (or 'this' if there was only one) https://www.walsworthmodelservices.co.uk/product-page/highland-railway-valuable-cattle-wagon-dia22 ?

[Compound2632]

On 31/07/2022 at 23:39, phil_sutters said:

Could it be one of these (or 'this' if there was only one) https://www.walsworthmodelservices.co.uk/product-page/highland-railway-valuable-cattle-wagon-dia22 ?

 

Looks possible. No doubt that dates from 1888, the year in which Prize Cattle Vans became a thing as a result of lobbying of the RCH General Managers' Conference by the various Agricultural Societies of Great Britain.