Tyne Yard to Carlisle New Yard 1973

[ClikC]

Hi All,

 

Recently picked up a copy of Working Time Table of Conditional train Services, from that well known auction website, for the Eastern Region (Section K) Dated 7th of May to 30th of September 1973. As part of my research for a possible model of Bog Junction Carlisle.

So now I'm on the hunt for details on the following services;

 

Down Workings:

6S32 - A Company Train with different timings MX MO, Wilton or Haverton Hill to Stevenson, Air Braked when running from Wilton. I'd love to know what this train was?

8M06 - MX, Z - Willowholme CEGB Sidings. Pretty self explanatory coal train, but I'd love to know from what pit?  

8M65 - MX. No other insights into what this service was from the book.

6M65 - Pretty sure this joins the WCML (and as such did not pass through Bog Junction), listed as traveling via HLB, which I assume is the Engineers Line Refence (ELR) for the Holwell Branch. 

7M56 - Different timings SX SO, listed as traveling via HLB, which I assume is the Engineers Line Refence (ELR) for the Holwell Branch. But this strikes me as being 'the long way round'.

8M57 - A Company Train TThO. 

 

Up Workings:

8E08 - WFO, but a Company Train TThSO.

8E09 - MX. No other insights into what this service was from the book.

8E63 - MX. Looks to be the return working of 8M06, although I cannot be sure.

8E23 - WO. No other insights into what this service was from the book.

6E42 - A Company Train with different timings SX SO, 08 08 Stevenston to Haverton Hill, with the SX listed as 'May also run to Wilton'.

8E14 - Different timings SX SO, listed as traveling via HLB SO, which I assume is the Engineers Line Refence (ELR) for the Holwell Branch. But this strikes me as being 'the long way round'.

0E00 - SO, indicated as being a Light Locomotive.

As always, any insight gratefully received. 

Regards

Matt

EDIT #1:
A scour of Flickr produced the following two images.

"1655 resting at Frodingham on 8th September 1973 having worked the 8E63 coal train to Scunthorpe from Radyr" - gary cross.
Carlisle seems a long way to go from Cardiff to Scunthorpe? I should learn to read.

"1885 on 6E42 tanks at Nottingham Midland 22-8-1973" - Michael Barstow.

Edited May 19, 2022 by ClikC
Glasses Needed

[Rivercider]

It is not my area, but I am pretty certain 6S32/6E42  would be a pair of company trains for ICI,

possibly tanks of liquified anhydrous ammonia. When I started in Bristol TOPS in 1978 we had occasional specials between Haverton Hill and ICI Severnside, similar trains also ran to Heysham and Leith. The trains were painted white, with an orange stripe along the length, either 4-wheel vacuum braked, or bogie air-braked tanks, with barriers, and a brake van.

 

Edit - a search on Flickr for 'Stevenston Haverton' finds 47009 with 6E42 in 1986, the air-braked version of what I had in mind.

 

cheers

 

Edited May 20, 2022 by Rivercider
Additional info

[BR traction instructor]

8M65, 7M55 and 7M56 were Tyne yard to Carlisle New yard mixed freights according to ER section K WTT May to Oct 74.

 

8M57 as above…no mention of COY or company train status.

 

6M65 was a Tyne yard to Petteril Bridge jnc COY or company train (probably cement).

 

8E09, 8E23 and 8E14 were Carlisle New yard to Tyne yard mixed freights.

 

The 1978 section GE Scottish WTT lists 6E63 as a Prestwick to Teesport COY (aircraft fuel).

 

This undated pic (photographer currently unknown) at Chester le Street could easily be the 6E42 Stevenston to Haverton hill empties returning.

 

These books contain useful images along the Newcastle to Carlisle route of the freights involved…

 

BeRTIe

Edited May 21, 2022 by BR traction instructor

[ClikC]

Gents,

 

Thank you for the insights.

 

I see from the Flickr search for 'Stevenston Haverton' also produces the absolute monster that was 47 077 North Star, a western region namer of all things well outside of if it's normal patch. I spent many hours riding behind North Star as 47 840 in later years. So I think this would allow me to get away with running 47 254 (my personal favourite spoon, 47 806 in later years).

 

"47077 seen at Hexham working a train of pressure tanks possible the 6S35 07.25 Haverton Hill to Stevenston." Ian Cuthbertson Flickr

 

I own 25 years of the 40's, but I've added Trans-Pennine Rail Routes to the shopping list.

 

Regards

 

Matt

[BR traction instructor]

[BR traction instructor]

The answer to the question re the source of Willowholme P.S. coal lies in the Oct 71 to Apr 72 Section K WTT…Bardon Mill is the originating point.

 

BeRTIe

Edited May 23, 2022 by BR traction instructor

[ClikC]

Thanks BeRTIe,

 

Bardon Mill is also listed as the starting point in the Section K WTT of Conditional train Services 7th May to 30 September 1973. Bardon Mill Colliery is listed as closing on 24th November 1973 (Source: Durham Mining Museum), which explains why it's not in the Section K WTT of Conditional train Services 6th May to 6th October 1974. 

 

 

 

Willowholme GEGB Power Station would close on the 27th October 1980, so presumably would have obtained coal from elsewhere for my chosen period of April 1974.

 

Regards

 

Matt

[Ken.W]

Via HLB - High Level Bridge (Newcastle)

[ClikC]

On 23/05/2022 at 01:28, Ken.W said:

Via HLB - High Level Bridge (Newcastle)

 

Hi Ken,

 

Thanks for clearing that up, I was struggling to comprehend it's meaning. Clearly my thinking it was an ELR was incorrect. I'll add some notes to my spreadsheet explaining.

 

Regards

 

Matt 

Edited May 25, 2022 by ClikC

[russ p]

9 hours ago, Ken.W said:

Via HLB - High Level Bridge (Newcastle)

 I wonder why so many went that way when Tyne to Blaydon via Norwood was freight only back then 

[ClikC]

On 23/05/2022 at 10:31, russ p said:

 I wonder why so many went that way when Tyne to Blaydon via Norwood was freight only back then 

 

I believe this is to accommodate crew changes in Newcastle Station.

 

Regards

 

Matt

[Ken.W]

4 hours ago, ClikC said:

 

I believe this is to accommodate crew changes in Newcastle Station.

 

Regards

 

Matt

 

Maybe, but l doubt it.

 

Of those booked 'via HLB' or timed via Newcastle, only 1 is booked to stop there - 6S32 MO, and this one was 'L' - stops for loco or crew change only. This suggests the others didn't. Plus 6E42 has an L stop at Tyne Yard.

Also at that time, there was no driver's depot at Newcastle, it was Gateshead and Tyne Yard and as Gateshead was predominantly passenger work, they were most likely worked by Tyne Yard or Carlisle men.

 

 

The common factor in those routed via HLB or timed via Newcastle is they're all SO workings, plus the early morning MO 6S32

This was the early '70s, not the modern 24/7

So, freight only routes closed over the weekends and trains routed via the then main line, via Scotswood?

[Mark Saunders]

1 hour ago, Ken.W said:

 

The common factor in those routed via HLB or timed via Newcastle is they're all SO workings, plus the early morning MO 6S32

This was the early '70s, not the modern 24/7

So, freight only routes closed over the weekends and trains routed via the then main line, via Scotswood?

 

The whole of the line from Blaydon to Tyne Yard was controlled by Tyne Yard box from circa 1951 and Tyne was open 24/7.

[Ken.W]

2 hours ago, Mark Saunders said:

The whole of the line from Blaydon to Tyne Yard was controlled by Tyne Yard box from circa 1951 and Tyne was open 24/7.

 

Managed to find, from signalling notices on the SRS website, that Norwood and Derwenthaugh were only converted to colour light signalling during 1973, and both those 'boxes remained in use at that time. Haven't been able to find when they did close, but they were still in during the period being discussed. 

 

Somewhere, I've a copy of a signal box opening hours book from, l think, the early '60s.

It shows that most, if not all, goods lines were closed mid-Saturday till early Monday, as the boxes were closed during those times, including many that couldn't be switched out as they controlled junctions or level crossings.

Edited May 26, 2022 by Ken.W

[Mark Saunders]

Strange as the signalling looked vintage even in the 1980’s when I first went over the route!

[BR traction instructor]

There is a picture of HTO style hoppers in Willowholme PS sdgs Oct 1953 in A Cumbrian Railway Album by Leslie Gilpin if it helps.

 

BeRTIe

[ClikC]

On 07/12/2022 at 13:40, BR traction instructor said:

There is a picture of HTO style hoppers in Willowholme PS sdgs Oct 1953 in A Cumbrian Railway Album by Leslie Gilpin if it helps.

 

BeRTIe

 

Hi Bertie,

 

Sorry I must have missed this reply. HTO's or HOP21 are required by the bucket load, as they certainly seem to be the most popular coal wagon in the Carlisle area at the time. 

 

I've also managed to procure the correct WTT for my April 1974 time period.

 

 

 

8M06 would seem to be HTO/HOP21 coal, plenty of them seen here: https://www.flickriver.com/photos/tags/bardonmillcolliery/interesting/ I'll hazard a guess that 8E63 is the return empties.

 

I also managed to procure the ER Section H Mandatory WTT, but only the UP has anything of note. 8E14 and 8E18.

 

 

 

Interestingly, not found anything that seems to be working directly to say Workington from the Newcastle area, I assume this is because it would have headed into Carlisle New Yard, and worked from there to Workington. But just prior to this BR reinstated the curve to the Maryport at Bog Junction, seemingly for Iron ore trains from Newcastle to Workington, but certainly didn't seem to run during my period of interest.

 

I'm also pawing over WTTs for stuff heading North and South along the WCML through Carlisle, but that'll be a separate topic.

 

Regards

 

[BR traction instructor]

The WTT's can be a little misleading as not all traffic running at the time is included and any associated supplements need to be sought too. Traffic to/from Workington may have appeared in the weekly STN (special traffic notice)  e.g. when the commodity arrives by ship and needs to be moved intensively until the ship is empty but the dates for the ship sailings aren't predictable/regular. Also, local trip workings aren't included normally due to their changing daily requirements to meet the needs of wayside locations along the line, so the trip notice for the period is also required (the 2D53 website shows a good reflection of how trip workings added to the traffic along a particular route). It is better to have some decent local railway books of your chosen period to hand and compare them with the WTT's as a cross reference, in order to get an accurate picture of what actually appeared. Alternatively, if the iron ore went to Consett steelworks then check for whether they had any alternative supply route by investigating all workings timetabled in/out and again gathering decent railway books of the period specific to that location. Playing railway traffic detective is an interesting and rewarding activity in its own right and would lead to a much more accurate/interesting model cos you would then be able to demonstrate/explain a much greater variety of traffic operations.

 

Another variable is the inclusion of sporadic traffic commodities in trip workings and block trains, just to get it shifted away from the dock. When sulphur for Amlwch (Associated Octel) arrived in Mostyn dock in the 1970s both movement types were used to move the product efficiently but that included in trip workings departed in the wrong direction initially, for adding into local trips to Bangor/Amlwch from Mold jcn.

Another non WTT example is the iron ore for Shelton bar steelworks, Stoke arriving into Birkenhead docks in the early 1970's and up to 9 special trains then ran on a Sunday (in the pics that I've seen). Local locations such as Chatterley valley were used to stable the trains until the steelworks could accept/offload the ore. Getting sufficient crews/locos and wagons together at short notice must have been a challenge, especially if Sunday engineering work caused routing problems. Ships didn't hang around in docks due to accumulating costs and the need to be back at sea earning more money from the next cargo.

 

Another useful reference source is the railway magazines for your period. Snippets in the Traffic & Traction section are often useful and any new traffic or noteworthy events might have generated a picture or two.

 

BeRTIe

Edited May 15, 2023 by BR traction instructor

[ClikC]

Thanks Bertie,

 

STN's have been very elusive for my chosen period and location, as are unfortunately books covering the area and period, alas railway interest in general seems to have dipped considerably after the change from steam. I'm always on the lookout for book recommendations, and I do have all issues of Railway Magazine and the Railway Observer which do have some fascinating insights, I shall go over them again with the aim to cross refence against the WTT knowledge at hand.

 

Regards

 

[BR traction instructor]

An appeal via the Signalling Record Society website for a signal box log transcript along your route will indicate how much you're not seeing. Any 7,8 or 9Zxx headcodes would be well worth further investigation.

 

BeRTIe

Edited May 15, 2023 by BR traction instructor

[D9020 Nimbus]

On 25/05/2022 at 23:41, Mark Saunders said:

The whole of the line from Blaydon to Tyne Yard was controlled by Tyne Yard box from circa 1951 and Tyne was open 24/7.

Surely the "1951" is wrong, since Tyne Yard wasn't in existence at that time?

[Mark Saunders]

On 15/05/2023 at 16:50, D9020 Nimbus said:

Surely the "1951" is wrong, since Tyne Yard wasn't in existence at that time?

Agree I must be thinking about one of the other resignalling scheme’s possibly Tees Yard or York!

[The Stationmaster]

On 15/05/2023 at 08:05, ClikC said:

Thanks Bertie,

 

STN's have been very elusive for my chosen period and location, as are unfortunately books covering the area and period, alas railway interest in general seems to have dipped considerably after the change from steam. I'm always on the lookout for book recommendations, and I do have all issues of Railway Magazine and the Railway Observer which do have some fascinating insights, I shall go over them again with the aim to cross refence against the WTT knowledge at hand.

 

Regards

 

STNs are notoriously difficult to find and the main reason is that they were very perishable items which went in the bin as soon as they were out of date - and veru few reular STNs covered more than a week especially in the era you are looking at.

 

In some cases Notices were issued covering particular traffic flows for a period - e.g. the seasonal broccoli traffic out of Cornwall - and they are ore likely to have survived at somewhere like Kew or the NRM.  But ordinary Weekly and Daily Notices were rarely kept and even in the issuing office in pre-computer days they were only kept to save work by using cuttings out of them when preparing the next one.  The only notices that survived on the WR for any length of time for those for Rot yal and 'Special' trains together with some for major events as I mentioned above.  I don't think the practice would have been much different elsewhere, certainly after computerisation in the mid-late 1980s when we stopped keeping most paper copies.

 

I kept  various of the Notices I wrote for some  special events but I was surprised to receive an email a couple of months back from someone who had saved another Notice I'd written - for an emergency exercise - which he had kept but I hadn't.

[ClikC]

On 15/05/2023 at 08:25, BR traction instructor said:

An appeal via the Signalling Record Society website for a signal box log transcript along your route will indicate how much you're not seeing. Any 7,8 or 9Zxx headcodes would be well worth further investigation.

 

BeRTIe

 

The SRS do seem to have some interesting stuff catalogued, mostly relating to the WCML resignaling scheme's prior to the putting the knitting up, I have collected a few of the issued documents 1G, 2G and 3G, but always nice to see some of the planning documents. Alas, the Carlisle PSB train register doesn't appear listed.

 

On 20/05/2023 at 12:28, The Stationmaster said:

STNs are notoriously difficult to find and the main reason is that they were very perishable items which went in the bin as soon as they were out of date - and veru few reular STNs covered more than a week especially in the era you are looking at.

 

In some cases Notices were issued covering particular traffic flows for a period - e.g. the seasonal broccoli traffic out of Cornwall - and they are ore likely to have survived at somewhere like Kew or the NRM.  But ordinary Weekly and Daily Notices were rarely kept and even in the issuing office in pre-computer days they were only kept to save work by using cuttings out of them when preparing the next one.  The only notices that survived on the WR for any length of time for those for Rot yal and 'Special' trains together with some for major events as I mentioned above.  I don't think the practice would have been much different elsewhere, certainly after computerisation in the mid-late 1980s when we stopped keeping most paper copies.

 

I kept  various of the Notices I wrote for some  special events but I was surprised to receive an email a couple of months back from someone who had saved another Notice I'd written - for an emergency exercise - which he had kept but I hadn't.

 

Managed to procure the below:

 

 

I'm hoping that I might be able to eventually come across the May 1974 W2, which someone may have saved because of the Royal Train's visit to Preston on the 6th of May 1974, for the Queen to unveil the plaque to mark the completion of the WCML electrification among other interesting events. Such as, 25233 and a saloon being used to transfer the Queen from Preston station to the new Preston Power Box, and the Queen travelling north to Carlisle in the cab of 87018.

 

Regards

 

Edited May 22, 2023 by ClikC

[BR traction instructor]

The members of the Signalling Record Society will between them have a considerable portion of the box registers that survive. I meant for you to leave a message stating what you were looking for, in the hope that someone can offer you some assistance.

 

BeRTIe