16t MIneral wagons in the 1950s

[Helmdon]

Afternoon all, trying to put together a windcutter rake for Woodford Halse area in the 1950s. However, B&W photography is still leaving me scratching my head as to whether they should be grey, bauxite, or a mix of the two. 

 

Any thoughts or clarification very welcome please!

[33C]

Very generally, Bauxite=fitted vacuum brakes, Grey=unfitted (no brakes, hand brake only). Fitted wagons nearest the loco, any further unbraked wagons require a brake van on the rear. Length of train depends on brake force available, loop/siding length (SLU's), tonnage etc. so the crew can maintain control on gradients. 🤓

[33C]

SLU = Standard length unit = 21'.🚂

[hmrspaul]

Also caution about the generality of '1950's' as, apart from a single batch, mineral wagons were all unfitted until 1958 when the first small tranch of VB minerals were introduced. Very unpopular with NCB men. Colour as mentioned - red for VB and VP, grey for unfit was correct through the 1950s; becomes more confusing after 1964. 

 

Paul

[Helmdon]

1 minute ago, hmrspaul said:

Also caution about the generality of '1950's' as, apart from a single batch, mineral wagons were all unfitted until 1958 when the first small tranch of VB minerals were introduced. Very unpopular with NCB men. Colour as mentioned - red for VB and VP, grey for unfit was correct through the 1950s; becomes more confusing after 1964. 

 

Paul

thanks, yes I think I dimly knew that - it's the fact that they were actually colour coded that is coming as a surprise for this youngster; I've only ever seen it b&W!

 

My period is BR early emblem though, so I'm definitely in unfitted land.

[33C]

VB = Vacuum braked, VP = Vacuum piped (through pipe), Piped only had a white painted head above the hose/bag. 🤓

[LMS2968]

12 minutes ago, 33C said:

Very generally, Bauxite=fitted vacuum brakes, Grey=unfitted (no brakes, hand brake only). Fitted wagons nearest the loco, any further unbraked wagons require a brake van on the rear. Length of train depends on brake force available, loop/siding length (SLU's), tonnage etc. so the crew can maintain control on gradients. 🤓

Just to expand, except for a few isolated cases given in the Sectional Appendix, all goods and mineral trains, even fully fitted, would have a brake van, normally at the rear (it could be moved forward a few wagons with a fully fitted train). If any of the train was unfitted, the brake van would be at the rear and carry side lamps.

[The Stationmaster]

19 hours ago, 33C said:

VB = Vacuum braked, VP = Vacuum piped (through pipe), Piped only had a white painted head above the hose/bag. 🤓

That was the situation after colours were changed in the early 1950s (not that it had any effect on 16T mineral wagons of course).  Prior to that the standpipe on a fitted vehicle was black and it was red on a piped only vehicle.

[33C]

3 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

That was the situation after colours were changed in the early 1950s (not that it had any effect on 16T mineral wagons of course).  Prior to that the standpipe on a fitted vehicle was black and it was red on a piped only vehicle.

Yes, I remember this was pointed out to me in the late eighties, which meant there were still both types running around! A lot of bending down ensued to see what had what, just to be sure!  😬

[Aire Head]

On 20/05/2022 at 17:09, Helmdon said:

Afternoon all, trying to put together a windcutter rake for Woodford Halse area in the 1950s. However, B&W photography is still leaving me scratching my head as to whether they should be grey, bauxite, or a mix of the two. 

 

Any thoughts or clarification very welcome please!

 

In the 1950s your mineral trains would not be solely 16t steel wagons a large amount of the old wooden bodies vehicles would still be around and in use getting increasingly decrepit the further into the 50s you get.

 

In the 1950s your going to be looking at grey for steel minerals with the exception of perhaps a few of the pre 1948 examples which may not have been repainted by that point and still carry the remains of their previous livery.

 

On a note about brown wagons to the front to make a fitted head, you would only usually marshal a fitted head if required to do so and only the number required would be bagged up to my understanding. No one wants to do work they don't have to do and in your period I'd expect a mineral train to be running under a headcode which didn't require a fitted head.

[hmrspaul]

On 20/05/2022 at 17:27, Helmdon said:

 

 

My period is BR early emblem though, so I'm definitely in unfitted land.

 

As Aire head suggests lots of wooden wagons - more than steel possibly. And yes a good proportion of the metal ones would have been in MoT bauxite. 

 

Paul

[Aire Head]

24 minutes ago, hmrspaul said:

would have been in MoT bauxite

 

Or even LMS Bauxite for some!

[Covkid]

On 20/05/2022 at 17:20, 33C said:

Very generally, Bauxite=fitted vacuum brakes, Grey=unfitted (no brakes, hand brake only). Fitted wagons nearest the loco, any further unbraked wagons require a brake van on the rear. Length of train depends on brake force available, loop/siding length (SLU's), tonnage etc. so the crew can maintain control on gradients. 🤓

 

On 20/05/2022 at 17:36, LMS2968 said:

Just to expand, except for a few isolated cases given in the Sectional Appendix, all goods and mineral trains, even fully fitted, would have a brake van, normally at the rear (it could be moved forward a few wagons with a fully fitted train). If any of the train was unfitted, the brake van would be at the rear and carry side lamps.

 

Also worth mentioning that until the very early 1980s local trains and trips mostly hooked the loco on the front of what was in the siding. that was unless the driver actually wanted to have a vacuum fitted head. My memories of the "conventional" coal trips from Mid Cannock to Lea Hall (next to Rugeley) in the early 1980s were of no shunting of fitted heads, the crews literally taking what was there, with a brakevan on the back. The benefit of shunting a few fitted wagons ont othe front of the train wasn't considered worth the effort, although this might have been different on main lines.  

[Cwmtwrch]

3 hours ago, Covkid said:

The benefit of shunting a few fitted wagons ont othe front of the train wasn't considered worth the effort, although this might have been different on main lines.  

The classes of goods trains, their schedules and point-to-point running times were laid down in the WTTs, just like those of passenger trains. Spending time and effort shunting out a fitted head was of no benefit to the crews [if the train was supposed to have a fitted head, the yard would normally have it set up before the loco arrived], would probably annoy the Yardmaster [who might well tell the driver to depart forthwith if not sooner], the time taken would have to be made up, and it might lead to questions from the shed foreman. Why would they?